hcetzneb

Just a fyi the move to non sbc in the e class was including the e63. The e63 hasnt had sbc since 06 and same with the cls/ cls 63. The sl had it till the 09 face lift, same with the sl63....The only model that still has sbc is the maybach and it has two pumps and 6calipers( basically 2 complete brake systems)

K-A

The SLR also has it right?

hcetzneb

ya forgot one thanks

vettdvr

I understand what you are saying. But consider paying $65000 for a car that turns into a hanger queen and the dealer saying it's better, "trust me".

I just have a hard time handing over $65G's on a car that Might be reliable. So to answer you question check the true delta reliability or CR for the MB and if it isn't showing as at least average or better with hard data. I will definitely consider a different brand.

Fool me once, shame on you.

Fool me twice shame on me.

I will need hard data to convince me MB's are reliable after owning this one.

However I will give the SA and dealer a 10 on the 10 scale for excellent service and repairs. Unfortunately for each failure I have to drive 200 miles and it takes me a full 2 days of my time for each repair.

The inconvience issue for break downs is a major problem.

I really don't mind preventative maintence and pay fully for it. I also understand there may be some failures as on any machine. I can afford the MB and even without warranty I can afford to pay the repairs.

But when I consider MTBF and MTTR they are excessive and way out of line on the 2003 E500.

Barry45RPM

I had an '04 & have an '07 (both bought new) and can tell you 1st hand the '07 is the best, most thoroughly enjoyable car I have EVER owned.

rieger

The real main problem is that MB isn't taking care of it's customers.
Why should anyone pay good money for a top end car and then have the manufacturer say to you too that we won't fix the faulty radiators until your transmission blows and we won't fix your brakes until you kill yourself or someone else. That is the main problem is MB no longer really stands behind their product or care about the safety of their clients. When MB charges a premium for its E class it should treat it's customers as such. It is the most expensive luxury sedan in the segment.
BMW has had it's problems with the 5 series also but atleast it wasn't an issue that would kill you. Hopefully with the departure of the imbecile Shrempf that the products will improve for you MB diehards.

vettdvr

You must be driving a 2003 E500 like mine.

gnma

I guess the question to ask now is has anyone exp. SBC brake failure after having the recall done?

I am so considering dumping her for another brand. my MB is awesome, but fooling with brakes is something not to be trifled with. An emergency system should be intact and provide stopping power. E-class is big and heavy with only front brakes working, (as claimed), is a bad move. It seems evident from the experiences here that there is VERY little braking once SBC failure takes place. An object in motion.....

So, anyone had a problem after having the recall done?

vettdvr

My 2003 E500 was only dealer serviced. All recalls were completed and documented on our service record. Then we had Total SBC brake failure. So to answer your question, YES.

I asked the service tech after he installed the new SBC unit if he had any failures on the new units, hoping they were upgraded. His answer he personally hasn't seen any. That might mean he did not get them on a work order or they had not been in service long enough to begin experiencing failures. I only hope the new system installed on our E500 is better than the origional. I filed a formal complaint at the NSTB for total brake failure but apparently noone else has done so, therefore MB doesn't get a lot of heat over this one. Hopefully noone is injured with this because there might be enough data to show a defective system.

Dzul

Vett,

Who's your dealer, if I may ask?

rieger

Even if they fixed the pump other problems could arise that can affect the SBC system. I think this is also another problem since if your charging system goes down or batteries etc. then the SBC pump won't work correct? If this is the case than it is not just the pump but many other things.
Yes Vett I also have the dreaded 03 model but I think up to 06 E-class have more or less the same problems.
The current generation E-class looks amazing and technically it still is an amazing car but the problems is that Shrempf decided to put in the cheapest parts he could find. Don't know how the could reduce the price of the current E-class so much and improve the quality? Either Dr. Z is selling these E-class at greatly reduced margins to get customers to comeback or Schrempf was making a killing on these cars until he ran into warranty claims.

gaazmon

The SBC is something very serious. I think the ONLY way to fix it is for them to come out with a conversion kit to non-hydraulic. And YES, it should be FREE (yes, MBUSA, I know you can see this... well at least the NSA can so can someone over there forward this to MBUSA please??? ).

In regards to W212, it's very simple, they cut back on other areas. That doesn't mean it is less reliable. The 07+ Es have many cut backs compared to prefacelift ones, but the reliability is much better.

Diesel Benz

I don't see how brakes could be made non-hydraulic. The SBC brakes actually are 95% the same as any car with ABS brakes (plus ESP) today. The car with SBC brakes just does not have the vacuum booster and the related hydraulics that allow braking power in a traditional way.

An ABS car would equally apply brakes as the SBC car does but only when the car decides on that itself, not when the driver applies brakes (could happen in a combination of the two).

The problem with any changes is that the car does not have room for a traditional vacuum booster.

In any case, going to traditional ABS brakes one would need to add hydraulics, not remove (and add something else too).

gaazmon

Ah I see. So it would require more stuff. So it's not even possible to change out the system then? Bummer.

Eich

E-Class is the most popular model, isn't it?

Even if I got rid of my E, I'm a little worried about the thousands of other E's on the road that might experience total brake failure while they're near me. I see E-'s ALL OVER THE PLACE.

I wonder if the people at Mercedes are worried about this? How about the people driving 140 mph+ on the German Autobahn? Total brake failure at that speed is certain death.

I'm hoping that total brake failure is a VERY rare thing on this car.

vettdvr

I would agree this would be a +. For the question about how to's.

The system is still hydraulic. It is activated electronically. If the Master cylinder were converted to conventional with vac. booster then the only add on would be the abs activator. Many cars operate this way and this would be a straight forward change to do it the way the older cars worked.

However the issue becomes the software in the computer and $$ to do reprogram. Therefore I think this will NEVER happen.

For the new cars being better and cheaper. The vac brake system is cheaper and if the airmatic suspension were changed to conventional spring system that would also be cheaper. Both could be deleted without compromise to the reliability of the car and reduce cost.

But given I am currently stuck with the SBC and the E500 has been extreme poor value for $$ spent vs other cars it will still be difficult for me to buy another. I have test driven replacements that were in the same category and price range that I have previously driven but have much higher reliability.

I am still undecided on what to use as a replacement but MB chances are possible but probability is very low. I will probably unload the E500 BEFORE the SBC warranty is up. So get ready for a BIG loss on trade in value. Think $0.00

So much for MB. Hope Dr Z figures a way to keep me because he already has my $$ and I have a real difficult time giving him more.

I have just had way too many issues with this car. Check other post if you would like to see the list.

gaazmon

I see what you mean about the computers. It would be like trying to swap out the airmatic system for a conventional system. The computer would wake up and be like "Ah good morni... WHERE THE F*CK IS MY SUSPENSION!?!?!?" Lol, or maybe it would just throw error codes, but I'm sure it translates to something like that. They make conversion kits for other air suspension cars such as lincoln and cadillac but that's cause those older cars don't go through a sophisticated computer like ours. The new E63 will also have only rear air suspension while the front is a conventional steel setup or whatnot.

I figure in regards to SBC and ABC (CL500), I at least get some use out of it (and I still will at least be able to stop the car if it goes out) vs with SBC, you get really nothing extra that a conventional ABS system on other Benzes gets (except the extra risk and fear).

glojo

Surely we can all worry ourselves witless over the 'what if' scenario?

If the egine stops on a conventional car, then the braking power takes a huge dive, plus the steering will go very heavy and I am guessing.... There is far, far more chance of this happening compared to an SBC failiure.

We have had an 04 car since new and my wife will not, not trade it in for a newer model!

Why not?

It will not be traded in just because the newer face lift vehicles do not have the options our older car has, plus she is now a huge fan of the SBC system, it is by far the most efficient braking system we have ever had and I guess if it is good enough for both the SLR and the Maybach.. I guess it might just be good enough for us.

Dtv211

To the op: in case you didn't already know,

SA - service advisor
VMI - vehicle master inquiry

when I first joined mbw, I was flying blind reading all the abbreviations

MBNUT1

Yeah considering that modern commercial aircraft have electric by wire braking I'm thinking that I'm not going to fret over my SBC system a whole lot.

Barry45RPM

Don't forget your version of SBC does more than the US version. So for us, the SBC offers nothing more than a conventional braking system with all of the well known risks of failure of the SBC system.

I had a 2004 E500, and have had an 07 E550 since Feb '07... There is a world of difference between the 2 cars in feel, dependability & number of unscheduled trips for service. (Zero for the '07, every 6 weeks for the '04) Even though I don't have all the equipment I had on the '04, the '07 is a better handling, better driving, more pleasureable to own vehicle all around... and boy oh boy is that 550 a performer! Tell her not to be afraid to upgrade.

glojo

As you know my 04 is fully loaded and for the first 4 months or so I am sure I was used as a research and development employee

Our car was a regular visitor to the main dealer correcting niggling electronic issues but in all fairness to them we were spoilt. The car was always collected, a very nice courtesy car was left with us and no mtter what we complained about.. The fault was always rectified.

Mercedes-Benz then issued a directive that all E-class coming in for a service would undergo a quality control inspection and I must confess that for years our E-class has been rock solid.

As you are aware, from the summer of 2004 the 211 underwent a lot of cut backs and quite literally dozens of standard features were removed. We did post several lists that itemized the features that were removed and to me it sseems silly to trade our car in to buy a new vehicle with less features.

However the deal breaker is that electric sliding floor. That option is now a 'must have'

As usual you are correct regarding the SBC features and it was a shame the US did not get the ful version but that is a seperate debate.

I wonder if the 212 will have this sliding floor

Incidentally we eventually had the linguatronic fitted

vettdvr

And the F16 got the reputation with FBW systems as a Yard Dart for Why?

Most aircraft that use FBW have full redundant back ups and don't have to depend on a 90% drop in functionality of flight controls.

glojo

I think what is trying to be said is that we have far more chance of being knocked down when we cross the road and do we lock ourselves in doors rather than worry ourselves over something that may never happen. How many incidents has there been of hose pipes being damaged, torn or splitting.

What allegedly happened to you cannot be dismissed but likewise I am not going to label a system unreliable just because of this event.

If I were you I would have requested a report of what failed and then published it here.

As an aside I do know that SBC pumps are examined when our vehicles are serviced and replaced without us owners being any the wiser Is this a good thing?

I fully accept your car was regularly maintained by the main dealer and sadly things break, but thank goodness this is a rare event

I think fly by wire is a very good example of reliability and we are seeing it more and more, be it in aircraft or motor vehicles

MB_Owner

Whoa VetteDvr, I fly F-16s and it didn't get the "lawn dart" monicker because of its fly-by-wire flight control system. It's a single-engine fighter; and, when that engine flames out and you can't get it restarted it heads downward like the proverbial lawn dart. There were a fair number of non-hardware engine-related problems in the early years but over 50% them were caused by pilot error...guys getting the jet on the edge of the performance envelope followed by a flame out. Better training and increased simulator use solved that.

Now that it's a mature weapon system, we find most F-16 mishaps occur because of factors other than an engine failure; i.e., running into the ground or a wingman (or training adversary) accounts for more than ¾ of the F-16 accidents.

The four-channel flight control system (especially now that we have a digital flight control computer) has been extremely reliable since it can lose channels and continue flying...leading to the weapon system being affectionately called the "electric" jet.

Of course, I have one backup a driver with total brake failure doesn't have...a rocket-boosted ACES II zero airspeed/zero altitude ejection seat.