jhb

I left a message for my salesman to be sure to include me on the list of folks waiting for navigation and who paid for it (included in my lease). I received a message on my voicemail yesterday from him, the gist of which is: "Hi Jeff, as you apparently are aware, Mercedes will not be able to retrofit the E Class cars already delivered with the navigation units. They have not determined yet what financial arrangements or compensation they will offer those buyers who are in your situation. I will let you know as soon as that is determined."

I was not able to reach him to confirm that this was the official "Netstar" final word on this. But, he has been equivocal up to now. So, it looks like that is the case. I will post when I learn more. Anyone else get this news? If you did, did your dealer give any additional information or speculate the "compensation"?

Jeff

e500

With all the speculation I have read on this site (and it is only speculation until official word reaches owners from MB Corp.), there seems to be one overriding issue that hasn't been addressed. Those who have leased their vehicle and included the DVD NAV in that lease are obviously committted to that vehicle for 36, 39, etc months. If retrofitting their vehicle were not possible, then it would seem nothing short of letting them out of their lease in order to acquire the same vehicle with NAV when it became available would be the only fair compensation. To deny this would be forcing the owner to remain in a vehicle, for an unreasonably long period of time, that was not equipped the way MB led the owner to believe it would be at the time the lease was executed.

etenn

The same would hold true for those who financed or paid cash.
As an example, I paid cash with the clear understanding that the navigation would be forthcoming. I now have a vehicle that is not equipped as I purchased. The navigation was very important in my buying decision. I would not have purchased if I had not been reassured by MBUSA that there was no problem.
I will find myself with a very expensive car that does not suit my needs. Frankly, I will expect MB to refund my purchase price if the navigation is, in fact, not available. I will not accept a token compensation for my "inconvenience".

We will all now just have to continue to wait for official word and then each decide how we will respond. It will be interesting to see if we all receive the same information and/or offer of compensation. Nice to have a forum to discuss this as it would be difficult if it were just you and the dealer..

Ed

jhb

I called MBUSA to confirm. They indicated that their word is that it is still "delayed" and could not confirm no retrofit is possible. They had no additional information but took my name and number to let me know when there is an update. I also asked about voice activation for my phone. Again, no information was available. What do you think the chances are that I will hear from them?

I then called my salesman back and was able to reach him. He said emphatically that the word had been circulated that there could be no retrofit. He reiterated that there was no decision yet about compensation from MBUSA, but would let me know.

I also asked him about the voice activation. Guess?? No information as yet.

I forgot to ask him about the availability of navigation on a new order for 2003 or 2004. I will follow up and post what I learn on that, if anything!!!

Jeff

northbenz

It would not surprise me if MBUSA offered alternative compensation in the form of allowing customer to accept $1,000 credit on options or service at their dealer or in the alternative be able to accept a $2,000 credit on purchase of a 2004. They would do this for PR reasons, not legal ones. Believe me there is somewhere in that fine print something about no guarantees or promises regarding option availabilitybeyond refunding the customer back what the option itself cost.

monakh

I am now of the firm belief that we are fighting a losing battle. Frankly, I care very little for the outcome, because I have now become indifferent, thanks to MB's handling of the matter.

One wonders if there is any true luxury marque left in the world that treats its customers right.

MB can still achieve redemption, by empowering its customers to do what they want and to give them what they want. That may require them to take a financial hit that makes very little business sense. Let's see what wins, their concern for customer loyalty, or the bottom line.

jhb

Just an update on availability for 2003 or 2004 going forward: my salesman called back to say that there was no update yet on that and that he will keep me posted.

Jeff

pat a.

I firmly believe that if in fact no retrofit is available, to not allow customers to get another e class vehicle in a cost neutral manner would turn this into a PR nightmare for MB. I just don't think they can do it an a business basis even if they can on a legal basis.

cte430

I agree with northbenz. I'm sure there is lots of fine print that limits their responsibility to anything above just giving back our $1625. You've seen that famous line in literature and web pages. "We reserve the right to make any changes without notice blah blah blah". Of course the right thing to do is buy back the cars. My salesman hinted of giving an "extra" bit of compensation i.e. $3,000 towards your next purchase, or something along those lines. I'm starting to lose that warm fuzzy MB feeling i've had. The reason I got my E500 was because as soon as my '98 E430 hit 30,000 miles, major components started to fail. Mostly suspension related. I spoke to the famous "customer service" folks in NJ, got the name of the guy, and fedex'd a letter the next day. also copied the owner of my dealer. My brother and I have bought 7 cars from this dealer. MB NEVER replied to my letter. My dealer tried to make it right, and gave me a pretty decent deal on my E500. I've had all the usual problems, motor mounts, gateways, etc. but i've been willing to look past it, and give it the "new model" benefit of the doubt. If they fail to make right the NAV issue, I will be really pissed off. As another poster mentioned, you wonder who is really a marquee company anymore. I think buying back the cars would create a tremendous sense of goodwill, that we will gladly tell as many people who will listen. That would have to relate to increased sales. We'll see.

drb

By cost neutral do you mean replace each vehicle with a navi that cannot be retrofitted, with a new identically equipped vehicle with navi? Would leases and financing terms be reset also?

If there were 5,000 vehicles with navi orders sold in the USA and MB took a loss of $10K each they would absorb a $50M loss.

abhansali

But this is very different, because they have already taken your money (i.e. sale is complete) and good are not delivered. I'm not a lawyer, but from what I have read on this forum, most people have handwritten sales orders guaranting Navi, or something to that effect, and no one ever has to sign a "contract" or something else when purchasing the car, so I doubt there is anything written on anyone's sales documents indicating some "limitation of liability".

I woud guess they will try to compensate, and if someone absolutely pushes them and threatens legal action, they will buy back only those peoples cars. Keep in mind that most on this forum know what they want and won't settle for less, but a good deal of the people that have pre-ordered Navi, will probably take additional dollars off their car and run with it.

Can't wait to see the advertising for "used E-classes on sale NOW, direct from MBUSA..

etenn

There is no fine print on my Invoice...It shows a total sales price and that I paid cash for the vehicle. Attached to the invoice is a form that states: Sales price includes: Navigation system installed. No other work promised or due"

No disclaimer of any kind.

As far as the salesman hinting that they may give something like $3000. toward your next purchase. From what...MSRP? You can walk into most dealers and get that almost without asking. I am afraid that this is the scheme they will try. I for one do not want this car without the Navigation I paid for and will fight them if necessary. As for as a discount on a different car....It would have to be other than Mercedes if they don't perform on this.

Ed

drb

[QUOTE]Originally posted by etenn
There is no fine print on my Invoice...It shows a total sales price and that I paid cash for the vehicle. Attached to the invoice is a form that states: Sales price includes: Navigation system installed. No other work promised or due"

No disclaimer of any kind.

As far as the salesman hinting that they may give something like $3000. toward your next purchase. From what...MSRP? You can walk into most dealers and get that almost without asking. I am afraid that this is the scheme they will try. I for one do not want this car without the Navigation I paid for and will fight them if necessary. As for as a discount on a different car....It would have to be other than Mercedes if they don't perform on this.

Ed [/QUOTE

I want to fight also. I would insist they sell me an 03 or 04 with navi and absorb the depreciation. What would be your approach?

etenn

[QUOTE]Originally posted by drb

Quote:

Originally posted by etenn
There is no fine print on my Invoice...It shows a total sales price and that I paid cash for the vehicle. Attached to the invoice is a form that states: Sales price includes: Navigation system installed. No other work promised or due"

No disclaimer of any kind.

As far as the salesman hinting that they may give something like $3000. toward your next purchase. From what...MSRP? You can walk into most dealers and get that almost without asking. I am afraid that this is the scheme they will try. I for one do not want this car without the Navigation I paid for and will fight them if necessary. As for as a discount on a different car....It would have to be other than Mercedes if they don't perform on this.

Ed [/QUOTE

I want to fight also. I would insist they sell me an 03 or 04 with navi and absorb the depreciation. What would be your approach?

I believe that there are only three acceptable alternatives:

1. Supply and install the Navigation system as bargained for.
2. Purchase the vehicle back to put me in the same position that I was before I purchased.
3. Supply me with a '03 or '04 vehicle with Navigation...this is what I purchased and fully expect to receive. (...or #1 or #2 above)

Anything else won't work for me. Like a few others, I only bought the E-500 after being assured that the Navigation was part of the bargain. The assurance was from MBUSA in the form of phone calls and the memo to dealers advising of the retrofit program. Without this I would not have purchased.

To many here it probably is not a big deal and it was not all that important. They may very well take a different attitude. They may want to get their money back along with a little compensation. That won't work for me as I want and need the navigation unit.

If it turns out that they really can't perform then I suppose those of us who will get very serious will have to figure out a way to keep posted on the status as I am sure that MB would love to negotiate with each owner one on one to negotiate the best outcome for MB.

Just my thoughts at this time. I am disappointed. Hard to belive the MB is about the only car mfg. in the world that does not or can not offer a navigation system.

Ed

Beltfed

The number going around is that there is slightly less than 1,000 cars affected.....remember that the $500 discount program came and went rather quickly.

I heard from a different salesperson today that the cars are not retrofittable for the Nav and that MB is going to be offering something to make up for it, they just haven't released any info yet (as mentioned earlier in the this thread).

The salesman I spoke with personally feels MB will be doing a buyback, but told me obviously not to quote him on it.

MJGunn

Sorry, I just started reading this forum (dad is considering getting a new E when the lease on his C is up). What exactly is going on here?

What I think I'm reading here is, MB sold a bunch of cars without navigation, but gave you the option to pay for it when you payed for the car, and then they would install it for you later on. Now, they say its not possible to retrofit (which I don't find surprising).

monakh

That about sums it up, buddy.

However, the real frustration of the E owners, lies in the fact that MBUSA is not giving us a straight answer on any of this.

'She loves me; She loves me not'.

See

this for details.

northbenz

If I recall my contracts class correctly, "impossibility" is one of the defenses to enforcement of a contract. It would be interesting to learn just why the new Nav system cannot be retrofited. Is it just a matter of cost and expense? Is it because of some governmental certification problem? Are there alternative systems from other suppliers that could be installed? Is it as some have suggested a problem with agreements that have been made previously with suppliers or patents that pose a legal barrier for Mercedes? That said it really will be interesting to see how far Mercedes USA is willing to go to promote goodwill on this issue and/or not have to prove in a court of law or equity that it really is impossible to retrofit.

drb

I am unclear about your note. Are you saying if it is truly impossible for MB to provide Command then the contract with those of us who paid in advance is null and MB walks away?

northbenz

My recollection though is that impossibility is a defense to having to perform under the contract. I don't think that is the end though since there may be alternative remedies available for redress - it is just that forcing one to perform under the terms of the contract is not one of them. Translated here - just because one has a "contract" for installation of the Nav by retrofit would not require Mercedes or the dealer to honor that agreement if it turns out to be impossible to do so. Now, whether some other "damages" would be allowable (anywhere from refund of the funds for the Nav all the way to ???) is another matter. My point above, however, was to pose the open question - is it really IMPOSSIBLE for Mercedes to perform and I think that question needs to answered first - because if it is merely inconvenient or somewhat costly to do so, that may not constitute impossibility in a legal sense and then the customer may well be able to enforce the orignal agreement (barring any weasel words or fine print to the contrary, which I still suspect may be locatable if one digs deep enough as I originally posted.)

jim256

This may have no bearing on the E Class NAV retrofit, but the current "Star" (MBCA magazine) has a banner titled "New DVD-Based Navigation System" within a segment on the 2003 ML series. It announces the DVD-based system for the 2003 ML models and states: "Owners of older M-Class models can upgrade to the DVD system, an industry first; Mercedes-Benz dealers have details." (page 49, March/April 2003).

Whether that means upgrade from CD NAV to DVD, or from nothing to DVD is not stated.

craign

BMW apparently cares more about customers than MB. I had a 745i with lots of problems (you probably know they all have problems mine seemed to be afflicted with all known and some unknown bugs). They made several attempt to fix the problems by changing components including the phone module and nav system 3 times each. They also updated the I-drive software several times. The dealer was as frustrated as I was and without me having to ask, they said that it was unfair and asked BMW to buy back my car, which they did. I am not at liberty to discuss the details, but they were more than fair. Makes me feel guilty for getting the E500, but they suggested I not get another 745 since the issues had not been completely resolved and the 5 series was ending production this month and I would be driving an outdated car for the next few years. By the way, I preordered the Command and I can't believe that I may be in 2nd buy back situation within a 6 months period. My dealer is still sticking to end of March availability for Command but they seem to have no recent information only what they were told months ago.

NavNut

Did I read correctly and see that BMW is ENDING production of the current 5 series THIS month??? THAT was my backup plan... If I couldn't get an E500 equipped with Nav for European Delivery in July guarenteed, I was going to order a 540...

If MB screws me by waffling on the dvd-nav in the e-class long enough and I end up missing the window for the Bimmer order and it turns out that I can get NEITHER the E500 NOR the 540 this July, then I've had it with the German Marques... I'll do a short term lease on a Renault with their Eurocar program for this summer... I'll sell that blasted Audi piece-o-cr^p that I'm driving now, say to hell with all the German hi-tech features and performance along with all the little ticky-tacky problems they ALL have and just break down and buy the gosh-darn reliable Lexus...

This is just ridiculous. I just want a decent Euro-delivered German automobile with DVD-nav this July... I feel like I keep pounding my head against a Quixotiesque impossible dream... They're wearing me down. I'm beginning to feel like I'm swimming upstream on this one, and the best result I can hope for is forking over the most dollars for the E500, and then dealing with bad motor mounts vibrating the hell out of the engine, sounding like "machine-gun fire" and ticking like I wouldn't believe, lights blowing out all the time (apparently, it's a good thing it has a "nearest neighbor light kicking in for a burned out bulb"-technology), and a million other electrical problems that people seem to be reporting... What's the use of having all the gadgets if the only thing the gadgets do is malfunction... ARGH!!! (Just feeling a little bit frustrated right now...) AND to boot... they can't even deliver on them or even say when their damn marketing tripe they've been spewing will ever actually come even close to reality!

-NavNut

monakh

NavNut--I think we have been through this one before...but if you don't want a 745i and the 5-series is in its death throes (until the next gen). What about an S430? That is only a few grand more....

Callaway

No DVD Nav on S Class though.