NavNut

Well, Karl, that can explain why they have working electronics, entertainment systems, and dvd navigation in Chrysler products... maybe some of those strategic relationships should make it across the pond (and over some land) to Germany... cause it hasn't seemed to have gotten there yet...

-NavNut

karl k

NavNut -

I have a hunch for the light bulbs burning out and lousy German electronics vs. impeccable high tech products in Japaness cars:

1. Most of those components come from China/Taiwan/S. Korea - the Far East.

2. The Japanese know how to get quality products better, because of their cultural and ethnic ties, which the Germans do not have.

3. Because of their lack of cross-cultural sensitivities and lack of cultural ties in the Far East, -- West Europeans are simply handicapped in sourcing parts in the Far East.

Dema

Our company develops software for solving quality tasks and find right suppliers in chain. Unfortunately, not all automakers understand how important such systems in improving quality. BTW Japanese automakers are using such kind systems, but Germans are not.

Dema

Recently I bought a Lexus and the dealer scheduled an inspection appointment for me in 1st week of ownership. Sure, it could find any problems before I discovered them. This tactic allows to high Lexus score in JD survey, because this appointment is not considered as a service.

gbahri

- Laser Cruise (Distronic) Mercedes Has it. S class 1999 0r 2000?
S calss first (I believe)
- Parking assist (Parktronic) My moms old S class 97 i believe. (merecedes first)
- Rear view camera (No MB match yet) Ok, you got me
- DVD naigation (MB late to the party) Ok, you got me

- Rear entertainment (MB late to the party) M class has had one as an option.

- Keyless Go (Lexus late to the party) true

- Tele Aid (not rocket science - Lexus indifference?) True (they have it for the LS though)
- Massaging seats S class first (I believe)
- Ventilated Seats S class first (I believe)
- Cornering Headlights (MB late to the party) E class station wagon debute had it about 2 months ago but it hasn't come to the market yet.

You forgot.
Curtain airbags (mercedes)
SBC (mercedes)
Side airbags (mercedes)
Pop up bar (mercedes invented)
Airbag (mercedes invented)
ABS (mercedes invented)
ABC (i dunno if lexus has that or not.)

I still think MB leads the way.

These are from what I know. I might be wrong.

RJC

Very clever for both the owner ( happy customer and less problems) and Lexus (higher ratings due to less problems)

karl k

...and USA first:

- OnStar
- LoJack
- Cruise Control
- Windshield Washing System
- Intermittent Wipers
- Seatbelts
- Headrests
- Cornering lights
- Tire Pressure Monitoring System

PS

My 1992 Corvette had CORNERING LIGHTS:

When the directional blinker was activated, corresponding bright lights - built into the bumper - were turned on, for left or right driving assistance.

Yes, - CHEVY showed me the way!!

pogotango

ha

gbahri

seat belts were volvo. At least the tree point seatbelts are.

karl k

Side and side curtain airbags were VOLVO's.

MB wanted to quickly adapt those, but cited production problems for the delay of a couple of years, before the side and side curtain airbags showed up in the MB's automobiles.

NavNut

Cornering lights on your 1992 vette??? Heck... that was OOOOOLLLLLDDDDD technology... Both my 1974 Cadillacs have cornering lights that work that way... It's nice to see what you're turning into at night...

-NavNut

gbahri

First car with cornering lghts was 1940s Tucker. way old tech.

monakh

Sorry guys, I meant the TL when I said 34K. A bit of a brain fart there.

Baby Jocko

I didn't forget those things. We were specifically talking about electronics. You may want to re-read the thread.

karl k

??

Volvo first anti-roll-over electronics for SUVs.

triggaice

My personal experience with lexus was amazing. I am a current Mercedes owner (E Class) and I honestly had nothing but problems. I think the only reason I like the car is the styling. A lexus cant compare to a mercedes...well the name cant at least. Of course mercedes does get more respect but when it comes to quality and service, hands down it goes to lexus. They kissed my *** all over the place every time I took my RX300 to service. I go to mercedes and it feels like im in a Firestone garage, ppl running around all over the place. Now, BMW is a whole other story. I dont care what anyone says about the idrive, its a work of art. If you cant use the idrive then ur not educated enough to own a BMW, plain and simple. You dont need to be a damn rocket scientist to use that but if your a 45yr old soccer mom your gonna have some problems. BMW has quality better than mercedes and BETTER performance that Lexus and Mercedes HANDS DOWN. My choice: I like the new E Class but I have my doubts due to the quality. If you own a Mercedes PERIOD and have had a Lexus or BMW you know what im talking about. For others, the styling is soooooooo nice that you forget about the quality.

RJC

MBZ quality has suffered, period. Even Mb techs will tell you that the quality of the cars are no were near were they used to be. I started hearing this back in the mid 90's and it has only gotten worse with each model year. I agree that BMW is building a better car (yes I know they have problems too) and Lexus seems to be in a class by themselves with build quality, service and customer appreciation. I agree whole heartedly that Lexus's styling leaves a lot to be desired and MBZ simply sets the pace for the best. However, this reminds me of gorgeous sports cars of the 80's the best looking cars but riddled with problems. During my first test drive with the new CLK 500 months ago without even knowing of the common problems I was able to notice a few from the first few miles of drivivng...my God if I noticed this in a short test drive what are the quality control and engineering staff doing in Germany before these cars are released to the public. In addition the new CLK was out in Europe before the US and the initial problems still carried over without correction and as I noted before cars are still being produced with known problems on the assembly line! If MBZ corrected this stuff during manufature and not waited for the customers to complain and have to bring the cars into service their Initial JD Power ratings would be much higher.

drb

The only way MB will ever get the message is for us to vote with our checkbooks, buy something else. Yesterday, I saw my neighbors Infiniti M45, brand new. The wheels are so so, I thought, there is nothing too dressy about the body, but everything inside the car was as I hoped MB would be. The nav was up high near eye level, not down on the floor and big. The voice command worked for just about everything. The seats (with nice leather) can both warm and cool. Lasers for driving (distronic) and sensors for parking (parktronic). 340 hp with great torque, tons of truck space, beautiful paint colors...I thought to myself, and this is $47K....what am i thinking?

So, it appears with navi replacement option, one can insist on money back. I have signed nothing for the replacement. I am strongly considering the buy out, getting the M45 and poketing the extra $15K...sometime this week. A few others have leaned in this direction on this board.

Part of me feels strange even thinking these thoughts as I have been in MBs all my life.

lig

I'm keeping the E, but I hear you on the Infiniti. It really has an agressive feel down the road.

Best of luck on the new car!

triggaice

Yea but Infiniti has a horrible resale value. My personal feel about the infiniti is indifferent. Yea the infiniti is nice now but for some reason it just doesnt have a lasting design and seems to be outdated when it comes to styling so quickly. No doubt, the M45 is amazing inside, I totally agree with you, but the styling is so 1999 Q45 bodystyle. Performance and amenities are a plus but styling in my book gets a big negative. But hell, for 45grand why not? Its a pretty decent big body sedan for your money, best bang for ur buck in my eyes similar to the Acura 3.2 TL type S, but would you want that badge or styling?

drb

....would you want that badge or styling?


That is what is so infuriating!!!!!!! I'm impressed with the technology in Acura/Infiniti/Lexus that should be in MBs, imho. This technology is not even leading edge, its proven. I'd probably lease the M45 for a couple of years hoping that by then MB improves. As it is, the MBs are losing more of their value a lot faster these days, and be it Asian or German...there is money tossed out the window regardless. At one time, paying the MB premium, because it held value, was well built, had some bells and whistles..was worthwhile. Now the MB value, quality, reliability, service and prestige are on a downward trend. I'm having trouble justifying the expense, and finding the Asian brands more compelling. Five years ago, such thoughts would never come to my mind.

triggaice

This is a Benz forum and I am a benz owner but to sum it up, 60k for a E500? I rather fork over 3k and buy a SC430 or even save 5-10k and purchase a pre-owned 745i or the upcomming SC300. I just dont see myself as an Infiniti owner but I wont hate on their RECENT improved quality in their vehicles.

hpilot

I think all the posters have made some great points which have echoed my thoughts for quite a long time. No one can rationally argue that MB has been a leader in Electronics (i.e. Nav systems, sound systems, instrumentation, entertainment systems, etc.) over the past several years. What is so frustrating for me, is that they still don't seem to acknowledge the problem. Even the newest NAV system when it comes out will not be touch screen. This makes about as much sense as building a computer that doesn't use a mouse. This is not rocket science - why don't they get it. Where is the satellite radio support? How about MP3 support? And don't get me started on their service. Quality? My serpentine belt failed after 20,000 miles - brakes after 17,000 miles (my 1985 truck got 60,000 on the first set of brakes). If Lexus could just build a car that looks as good as my E-Class, I would buy it in a second. Just my $0.02.

alewifebp

hpilot: Couln't agree with you more. While I have an E500 on order now, I had a lot of reservations back in the day when I got my Lexus about both BMW and Mercedes. As discussed, the reliability was a factor, things like the audio system (very important to me) and even the stupid cupholders in the German cars left me wanting something else at that point back in 2000. Now the Germans are playing catch in terms of things like the audio systems (and have much improved all across the board where it is almost no longer an issue) and of course the NAV. I've used the NAV in the S, and it is not horrible to use, but it could be much better. And being CD-based... Need I say more.

The reliability also scares me. A lot of people make comparisons to Honda's and other cars that have impeccible reliability records. But, the comparison is not always fair, since the technology level is not at all the same. But, it is a much different story when things that are not related to the technology break (like the stories I've heard about plastic pieces falling apart in ML's and other things like that).

It reminds me of back in the day when Lexus (and also Acura) first came on the scene. At first, I'm sure that MB laughed. But, as we saw, MB gradually (and sometimes abrubtly) made changes that forced it to compete better, such as lowering the pricing and improving quality. Remember, MB's still had a lot of hand made components not too long ago. If a resurgance is found in some of the Japanese competitors (and it has already started with better designed, nicer looking, and higher technology cars), MB, and other German manufacturers will certainly adapt, as they will have to.

No question, though, that I have always felt that MB has had and continues to have the best safety equipment and best "useful" technology.

NavNut

These things are true... One advance though, that I'm not sure I like, is touch-screen... I've been in friends' cars with touch-screen dvd nav, and quite honestly, I'm not sure I would ever use it... I HATE the fingerprints on the on the screen. When I'm working on a computer, my screen is always wiped clean and never touched... the most annoying thing you can do to me is come up behind me, and say, "Look at that!" and not only point, but TOUCH my computer screen leaving a greasy print. Drives me nuts... maybe I am ****-retentive... maybe I have aspects of my personality that are Felix-Ungerish... but quite honestly, a finger-printed, smeared up dvd-nav screen looks like crap in your car...

I almost don't ever want a touch-screen dvd, because even if I never use it, I don't want people coming into my car and putting their greasy mitts all over it...

The other tech stuff... granted... the Germans are WAY behind the curve... it's pretty indisputable... the people who argue this have probably not ridden in Japanese cars lately... They should. It would be an eye-opener. If Lexus or Infiniti or Acura did European Deliveries... forget it... I would turn my back on the German cars, despite the couple of extra things they might have (Pano roof, Dynamic Drive seats, Keyless Go-I don't want a Prius, I want a nice luxury car with keyless go...), and never look back again.

Unfortunately, I go to Europe every summer... and I like to stay for at least a month... and I'm tired of short-term leasing Renault's... I want a really nice car over there...

I might just get a Volvo S80 Premier this year... I've just about given up dealing with the MB bozo's... I might visit one or two more dealers for no more than five minutes, and see if I can deal with them or not...

My sales weenie gave me a song and dance about how hard it would be to get an E500 Euro-delivered at the end of July with Nav. But for some reason if I was willing to pay MSRP, it suddenly doesn't become a problem. Slimey sales stuff. It's unbecoming at this level of purchasing. Then when I made it clear, I was not willing to pay MSRP these days, he starts talking about how rare the option will initially be, and how hard it is to get, and there may be only a few hitting our shores in November... Yeah... right... When I smell integrity issues at the beginning of a business relationship... it's over.

Anyone know an ethical MB salesguy to do one last check with, in the SF bay are before I go buy a Volvo for delivery in Amsterdam? Volvo (like BMW) still appreciates the Euro-delivery customers and the lowered costs associated with that for them, and gives discounted prices off US MSRP for taking delivery overseas still (like MB USED to do...) and provides all kinds of free perks... unlike MB who has copped this new attitude of the customer licking their salesguys' boots clean. Unbelieveable. As you can tell, this MB experience has not been very impressive for me... I expected just a little bit more. If they ever treated customers well, that is history guys. We're in 2003 now...

Kind of a shame that these guys didn't realize that all they had to do was treat me in a reasonable, business-like, and grown-up professional way, and I would have most likely bought a new car from them every single summer...

Pathetic. I should open up a real car dealership... People would be lining up just to be treated in a respectful, reasonable, ethical manner...

-NavNut