WEBSRFR

So my 2007 E550 4MATIC has the 40K mile service coming up and I'm really confused with what to do.

First of all the dealer is quoting about $650 for the service and it seemed high so I asked my local MB Indy shop what they recommend. This MB Indy shop has been in business for decades and seems to have a loyal following. FWIW the reviews I read online and the fact that each time I called they were very courteous and took the time to explain things made me feel good about what they do. + They do nothing but MB.

The dealer had a $89 special for oil and filter change and I had them do that.

The Indy told me that for my car all I'd have to do additionally for this service is a transmission oil and filter change and that it would cost me only $325. He said they will check everything else and top off fluids for free and he said anything else at this mileage would be a waste of money... Is this reasonable? He said he will check the Cabin Filter and charge me only if it needs replacing. For the brake fluid, he told me he will do a electrical conductivity test and a litmus taste to check for water and will change that only if water is detected. He said he's is JUST NOW starting to do brake fluid changes for 2003 cars implying that I should not have to do this for a while. Is this reasonable?

I cross referenced the advice from the Indy with the manual and the big items on the manual for the 2 year 39K mile service besides the transmission oil seems be the addition of the Transfer case (4Matic) and the brake fluid change.

So what should I do? Should I completely trust the Indy to look after me or should I ask them to also do the Transfer case and/or brake fluid also? Anything else I should have him do for this service other than rotating the tires? I'm thinking I should have him also do the transfer case oil since I have 4Matic... What would be a fair price for this?

Whether I keep the car for the long-term or not, I take care of what I own and I don't want to be penny wise and pound foolish so I really appreciate any advice anyone can provide. I want to do what is needed but not be ripped off or waste money needlessly.

I'm sure many others would find this thread useful... TIA for any input!

amdeutsch

Maybe your indie was looking at a non-4-matic of the top of his head. Ak. Brake fluid is easy to change and a tire rotation can be done when the brake fluid is changed. So it may be a freebie.

WEBSRFR

Thanks! How much do you think is fair for the brake fluid change? What do you feel about the Indy's recommendation of just checking the oil for water as he was pretty empathetic that I would be wasting money changing the brake fluid at this mileage...

Yeah I feel I should do the transfer case oil as the manual specifically calls for that since I have 4Matic. I don't want to have any issues with the AWD system failing and the extended warranty not covering it because this oil change was missed... What would be a reasonable fee for the transfer case oil change?

Sportstick

We just had the 39,000 mile service on our E3504MATIC, and in addition to the oil, the transmission and t-case fluids were replaced. We change brake fluid every two years.

Think about how recommendations are developed. The dealer and the indy have their behaviors based on their own anecdotal data and experience, with an obviously small sample, and not scientifically assessed. MB, on the other hand, does the equivalent of millions of miles of testing and development with intensive tear down and analysis of components under different circumstances. It is likely that they have published papers on the wear and tear effects of different lubricants. In conclusion, follow the book. In addition, if any unfortunate event were to occur, any chance of MBUSA helping would be enhanced if you could show by-the-book maintenance.

WEBSRFR

Thanks! Good advice and makes sense. If you don't mind me asking what was the cost of the service? Did you have an Indy do it or the dealer?

Sportstick

At our selling MB dealer, the costs were:

Trans service/fluid change: $299 (including 1.6 hours labor op)
"A" service with oil change: $178.75 (including 1 hour labor op)
4MATIC fluid change: $220.70 (including 1.7 hours labor op)

Total out the door (tax, etc) was $736.08 and this level of service is once per three years for us with our annual mileage, so it's twenty bucks per month. Of course the annual and two year events add their own contribution to the monthly maintenance budget, but in the overall scheme of things for having this car, it is really not outrageous.

WEBSRFR

I actually agree! I'm almost thinking that I should have just had the dealer do everything as I was quoted around $650-$700 and it does not seem to be that exorbitant especially when I consider the fact that it looks like I'll pay close that with the Indy if I have them do the brake fluid, and the transfer case in addition to the transmission fluid. It actually seems I'd pay the exact same price almost -- minus the loaner C class and all the touchy feely we vale your business stuff at the dealer! Hmm....

haris12

With the price that Indy is giving you then i would go with Dealer. Sounds like its about same amount of money then why not go with Dealer and at least you will know that they did job according to Mercedes specs. But thats just my opinion. If i cant do it my self then i take it to dealer at least i know they have tools and Technology required to get job done. On other hand Indy may not have all tools...

WEBSRFR

It seems in this case the Indy is "saving me money" by actually not doing certain fluid flushes and changes. I appreciate everyone's input. I think I'm going to cancel the Indy appointment and have the dealer do the work. They've actually been pretty good with me fixing various creeks and rattles at no cost though the car is out of warranty so I might as well give them business unless they start charging exorbitant rates... and it does not seem to be the case.

Sportstick

Part prices are established by MBUSA, and if you find labor rates about $95/hour, you are getting pretty close to the usual. Labor ops are also by the book, so it would be highly unlikely that they would "pad" the number of hours needed for a job.

Barry45RPM

...but dealers always will charge you full list price for parts during a service visit. They may or may not discount the RO at the end depending on your SA and your tipping habits. Indies, on the other hand usually pass along at least a part of their parts discount to their customer.

Sportstick

Yes, that is all true. But, his concern was not about getting a better than average deal through a discount. He said he hoped his dealer would not charge "exorbitant" prices. MSRP is not exhorbitant, per se. Padding the labor hours or adding extraneous fees would be. However, discounts are nice when available.

mrbdm99

Just my 2cents (about what it is worth!), when I think of a good indie I think of someone that generally deals in either JUST European cars or better yet, only MB's. They usually have about the same level, sometimes even better, of tools and equipment. You can get a feeling really quick about their skill level just by talking to them. I went to one indie here that does a smattering of Euro cars and he wasn't super familiar with all aspects of my car, so I'm scratching him off the list. The other indie here knew as much, if not more, about the car than either dealer I have visited. Both dealers started to dig through manuals, consult their coworkers, etc (which is fine) about my questions where as this guy knew all the answers right away. While I know this is just a feeling, your gut tells you the "right" thing quite a bit. At least mine does. ha. Also, this indie has been in town for as long as our dealer and has all sorts of magnificent MB's sitting there at any given time. I just say all this because I think a lot of people think of Bob's Auto around the corner when they think of an indie. Old Bob's might be great on your Chevy, but only decent or questionable on the MB.

Now, down to brass tacks, the OM test on the brake fluid is completely reasonable. You SHOULD be fine with the 4matic oil, but I probably wouldn't chance it just because that is a very over engineered system that would be pricey to fix. As far as MB establishing all these service criteria based on best practices through their testing... Well, first the intervals would make me question how well they actually thought of their cars IF I didn't know how the German manufacturing process was vs more "modern" processes. But, I think the real point of the established intervals is to make sure you are getting things done well in advance of actual fail points. Just think about it like a 3000 mile oil change recommendation. On a normal engine that isn't suffering from excessive wear and tear, you are about 2000/4000 miles shy of what conventional oil is "good" for and 7000 miles shy of what full synthetic is good for... While part of that might be a money making tactic for the shops and oil companies, another part is with engine wear in mind. Also, the dealer is going to do exactly what is listed, even if they don't think it needs to be done, so they can cover their backs. The indie, as you saw, is going to do what he thinks needs to be done based on his personal experience (as already noted), neither is perfect I suppose...

Anyway, I'm rambling. If you get a better feeling about the dealer, go there, if you get a better feeling about the indie then go there. That is about what it comes down to.

Sportstick

Some interesting points here! "Rambling", on the other hand, used to go on a lot at American Motors! (old guy joke alert). But, let me throw in a different point of view on the manufacturer's motivation in establishing service intervals. This comes from my background with one of the major car companies, and is based on the division of responsibility within the companies. Powertrain engineering will set the actual service intervals, and they are assessed (and rewarded, or not) as employees based on hitting their annual objectives, with quality audit scores and warranty costs usually a top goal. This tends to create some significant motivation to figure out what will actually work best, within the constraints of 1) variable cost or investment for the program, 2) any weight impact on the vehicle, and 3) program timing. So, while there may be concerns with coming up with a new part design, changing the intervals to achieve their objective (and maybe get a better annual personnel score in the future or better employee bonus) is a fairly "pure" motivation where their interests completely overlap with those of the retail consumer.

Now, over to the Parts and Service department. Sure, they would like their group's annual profitability to increase...in fact, as a quasi-Sales organization, that is one of their goals. So, they can adjust pricing, create marketing programs, try anything they can think of to stimulate business. But, they do not get to control what gets printed in the owner's manuals, which is a direct feed from a team which is engineering-driven. So, even if you trust your Indy more than the local dealer, I would still use the owner's manual as the guideline for what actions should be taken how often.

For example, if you did the brake fluid test instead of just replacing it every two years, you now have to consider the validity of the testing device, its last calibration, the ambient conditions in the facility, the skill of the actual technician at the Indy in performing the test according to a standardized process, etc., etc. Given all the variables which may be introduced with just that event, one can understand the general principle that two years is the typical point where humidity absorption indicates fluid replacement for the total vehicle population.

mrbdm99

Interesting, I had not thought about the service intervals relating to the goals/bonus/evals of those that set them... I do like to think they are all set with pureness in mind.

Again, I think a lot of it comes done to the specific indie and dealer for that matter. I argued with my dealer over a replacement part I needed to get a price on (seat controller for my active/dynamic seats) and had the part number written down. I was not in the car at the time, but I had an actual photo of the part in question, aside from the part number. He kept telling me that it wasn't for my car and I kept telling him it was, all I wanted was the price anyway. The service department from the dealer I actually bought the car from was "inept" to the point that they didn't even put proper air in the tires, causing quite a bit of vibration on my ride back home (all 680 miles of it), which I chalked up to needing new tires until I got out my meter and checked them (which I should have just done before I left). Finally, the third service department (so I guess I was wrong, 3, not two) I dealt with told me there was no such thing as updating the firmware on the Command. They even consulted the "master tech" who said the unit could not be updated, even though I had the firmware version numbers and differences handy. This is just in the last 4 months with my MB. Don't get me started on my other vehicles. I guess I just have a sour taste in my mouth with dealers! I know there are good ones out there, but for now, I'm sticking with my indies.

As far as training, tools, calibrations, etc. I personally feel that you are just as likely to have problems in a dealer as you are in an independent shop (again, not talking about Bob's - no offense to the Bob's out there - Auto where the most training he got was working on his pop's Ford growing up). I realize that there are some fairly rigorous tests that certified shop mechanics have to pass to get their certs, but they don't all have them. I think there are different levels (thinking back to the Audi guys I know anyway), a certain number required per shop, etc. So, the tech in training might be working on your car and the certified guy is just required to inspect it after they are done, which, in a really busy shop isn't going to be super thorough.

Also, one last thought on the German engineering process based on a comparison of Japanese and German watch makers... You will have to excuse me because I'm paraphrasing from a discussion in a business class many years ago, so I'm stretching the numbers (probably). Anyway, both watches were the finest examples of each area, similarly priced, etc. The German process was something like 1500 steps vs 150 steps in the Japanese process. The point being that the 1500 steps involved created more points for failure along the process, no matter how many checks were involved (not to mention extra time), and led to more maintenance issues over time. The same type of overly complex process was used in their auto plants and most other manufacturing areas. Recently, it has begun to change and they have started to adopt different processes. I'm not saying it is better or worse, just part of how it was/is done. Because of it, you ended up with engines that are rated for 10,000 miles for an oil change (partly due to the full synthetic oil, of course, but also due to the amazing "tightness" they in the engine they created), but at the other end, you end up with (slightly older) engines using 2 spark plugs per cylinder...

I think I'm just getting cynical. haha

Sportstick

I can certainly understand your attitude toward dealers based on those experiences. Did you know with Audi, right on the Monroney label, it shows, "First name basis with Service Advisor" as standard equipment? I guess I am lucky to have both an excellent MB dealer and excellent Indy shop. So far, the Indy has done my mods and wheel/tire service, while the dealer is used for maintenance/service/repairs (really few-to-none needed so far!)

I certainly agree with your comments on German hyper-complexity, sometimes to their detriment! It's actually not just Germans, but a general European trait compared to Asians. In another thread (and as a possible watch fan, you may be horrified), I said I wear atomic solar powered Casios in a variety of styles at a couple of hundred bucks each when I am working and need to know the correct time. Otherwise, my beater watch is a Rolex which often gives good approximations while on vacation, etc.

Actually, it would be interesting to consider which is over-engineered. One could argue the Asians have the lead in engineering "intensity" to get the product to the simplest design solution. The complex result of some German work could, conversely, be considered a result of not taking the engineering discipline far enough to achieve simplicity!

WEBSRFR

Nicely put! I come from the world of software and I am most impressed when I see a developer writes simple elegant code. I cringe when I see a developer who works for me comes up with really complicated code with all kinds of special cases when a far simpler design would have made a lot more sense and MUCH easier to debug and maintain. You are right, it takes effort to come up with simple designs and it is also a bit of a philosophy. Either you think of it from the beginning and use it as a guiding principle or you don't...