dallenyh

Took my car in for "A" service and trans & transfer case fluid change.

Knucklehead at dealer service center neglected to refil oil. Just bought this car with 25K miles on it. Not pleased.

My wife drove about 1 mile before engine and oil light came on. Low speed, stop and go traffic.

Car started surging (I suspect lack of hydrolic pressure in cam adjusters). She pulled over and called me.

I checked the stick - bone dry. Raised kane at the service center and watched as they poured 8.5 qts to get the level right on the stick. We drove it back to the dealership and it ran fine without any odd behavior or noises.

We pulled the valve covers off and inspected the cam shaft lobes and bearing surfaces. No damage. Like new.

We dissected the oil filter and tested the oil - no fragments or metalic partices in the oil.

We've taken the car home with an extended warranty and other "compensation" for our pain and suffering.

Should I worry about long term affects?

otto6457

Hard to know for sure. It's good that no metal particles were found in the oil filter element. However, anytime main bearings and rod bearings are oil starved there will be some damage. I call it "smear". The technical term is "embedability". It's the property of bearings to allow material harder than the bearing itself to embed into the bearing and not into the crankshaft. When a bearing is starved for oil some of the soft outer coating of the bearing will start to smear around the bearing surface due to the heat generated by the lack of oil. The longer the bearing is starved for oil, the worse the smearing. When the friction and heat reach a certain point the bearing stops smearing and begins to disintegrate. Then the loose particles will find their way into the lubrication system and eventually the oil filter. But not finding particles in the filter does not mean there is no damage. Just that the bearings haven't begun disintegrating. The outer coating can still be smeared off in areas and the next harder layer of bearing material can start showing through.

The long term effect will be unknown unless you have a failure and then it's too late. The extended warranty offer is your best friend in this instance. The only other option available is a tear down of the lower end to visually inspect the rod and main bearings.

Good luck

homeofstone

Yes and no. Sounds like this is documented and you have proof of the negligence of the dealer's service department. Next step is to tell the dealer in writing to install a complete new engine at no charge and while its being done give you a car to drive, all at no cost to you. If the dealer refuses then get a lawyer and go to court. When the dealer loses/or settles (and he will) you get the engine, some extra money, and dealer pays court cost and cost of your lawyer. Your expense and problems in the future regarding the engine is unknown and you cannot be at ease using a car. Its too stressful and the dealer was negligent. Don't be nice.

vettdvr

Because the oil light JUST came on and you stopped there is probably a little damage but not much IMO. Check your oil consumption and if it is the same you are probably ok. I think you "just missed" the bullet on this one but time will tell.

homeofstone

"time will tell" exactly. "probably ok" is not good. That's why a new engine is required for the damages caused by negligence of the dealer's shop.

Plutoe

I would second the following:

"Yes and no. Sounds like this is documented and you have proof of the negligence of the dealer's service department. Next step is to tell the dealer in writing to install a complete new engine at no charge and while its being done give you a car to drive, all at no cost to you. If the dealer refuses then get a lawyer and go to court. When the dealer loses/or settles (and he will) you get the engine, some extra money, and dealer pays court cost and cost of your lawyer. Your expense and problems in the future regarding the engine is unknown and you cannot be at ease using a car. Its too stressful and the dealer was negligent. Don't be nice. "

jquiroz1969

This happened to a company truck we use, Toyota Thundra. Was always taken to the dealer for service. The tech forgot to put oil in it and ran the engine without. Seized the engine. Full replacement engine. It was an 07' with over 100k on the engine. Dealer installed a 7kmile engine at no cost.

mtrevelino

Just my assumption here and not trying to be a smartass, but wouldn't the check engine and oil light come on as soon as the car is started without oil? On a "typical" car, the oil light would stay on until the oil filter was primed with oil. Please enlighten me!
Mike T.

dallenyh

Thanks for all the feedback. As a recovering gear head it is tough for me to beleive "no damage".

I had the same question regarding the monitoring systems on this high tech vehicle. The car was driven at least 2 times before my wife picked it up:
1. The person who took it from the shop to the clean up station
2. The person who moved it from clean up to customer pickup

I find it hard to beleive it would take 3 starts for the engine to detect a low/no oil situation.

My wife is good about these things having lived with me for 20+ years so I trust what she tells me.

My other German cars always alerted audibly at start up or shut down when there was an issue detected.

Go figure.

Litigation is a major time sink. It would have been simpler if the engine had seized.

Either I roll the dice or move on to another car that could have the same history for all I know. It's _knowing_ it happened that bugs the heck out of me.

If you want it done right...holds true yet again.

Thanks for the posts!

Quadcammer

lol, you are dreaming. Mercedes will not replace a motor that may be perfectly fine. No court would expect them to. You could possibly request that they remove the engine, inspect/replace the bearings, and reassemble.

You've got an extended warranty and some extras. One mile, even at a mild 30mph is 2 minutes. Running a decent synthetic, this is obviously not good, but likely did no damage. You could hook up a mechanical oil pressure gauge and check for any indication of spun or damaged bearings.

N_Jay

There is a very good chance that there is no damage but also a chance that there is.

No way to tell without pulling the pan and looking at the bearings.

Run is a shortened oil change interval, and have the oil tested.
If the results are normal, and consumption is normal, I would bet there is no (or negligible) damage.

If something is not right; drive it like you stole it and get the new engine from the warranty company.

(Or sell it and shop for a new one.)

homeofstone

Mercedes is not responsible, the dealer is responsible and an extended warranty is void if an engine is damaged from not having oil placed in it. "likely no damage" is not acceptable. This dealer has already admitted wrong and liability by giving the extras.

this is from another forum regarding a Toyota.
Dealership Forgot to Place Oil in Engine


Roden80
May 2009 in Repair and Maintenance

My mom went to her Toyota dealership for an oil change on her 2007 Avalon. They told her the car was ready so she paid for the services. She started the car and as she was driving out of the lot her car stopped and the engine locked up. She walked back to the service dept and had someone come help her. The gentlemen tried to start the car and he was not able to start it so the car was rolled back to the service dept. My mom had to ask what was going on with her car and they finally told her that someone forgot to put oil in the car. At this point they have placed a new engine in the car but my mom is concerned about the depreciation because of the new engine and is also concerned about the workmanship or knowledge of the people who placed the engine in the car.




- See more at: http://community.cartalk.com/discuss....gERixdXZ.dpuf

vettdvr

1) Drive it if it is ok, not using oil do nothing get free oil change for next 3 changes, if bad go to 2
2) Fight with dealer as is for new engine
3) Go to court spend big $$ and possibly lose
4) 2 again.

IF you go to court you may get some sympathy but you won't be able to prove damage was done without doing #1. IF the oil consumption has changed then you should be able to prove damage. But right now could you be under oath and say 100% sure damage was done to the engine.? If not I really suggest #1

homeofstone

A damaged engine may not use oil. Lifters, cams and cam shaft, crank shaft and other moving parts can be damaged but engine will not use oil. 10's of thousands of miles of wear could have been done to the engine in a mater of a minute or two when running without oil. Note what the above Toyota dealer did when he was negligent.

N_Jay

That is why you should get an oil analysis done for the next (and maybe or 3) changes.

That will tell you about any metal wear.

123Pokey321

I'm with homeofstone on this one. When I lived in Florida, my nextdoor neighbor managed several quick lube facilities and he said because of the frequency of their employees forgetting to refill the crankcase, they carried a massive insurance policy for engine and drivetrain damage/replacement. He flat out stated that if they forgot to refill an engine, they would replace it, basically no questions asked.

In this case, the dealer was negligent with a very complex and expensive piece of equipment. It's not the burden of the vehicle owner to chance not having a problem in the future, it's the burden of the dealer to ensure the owner that their car will run as intened. Which means a new(er) engine.

N_Jay

If the engine is undamaged, I would hate to add all the potential random problems that could occur with an R&R.

Maybe even discuss the oil analysis with the dealer.

EG Drive it 3 oil changes, the analysis from each comes back normal, then you have the warranty, if it comes back abnormal you get a new engine (or he takes the car off you hands for a reasonable amount, letting you find another at essentially no cost to you)

Critter

Otto6457 makes a valid point and is correct in his statements. As far as the dealership goes do they suck the oil out which could have left some oil in the pan or do they drain from the pan bolt . Having said that they are totally responsible, because there will be damage done to this engine. Recipricating parts, especially rod and main bearings that rely on the cushioning of the oil to stop metal to metal contact as already stated by Otto. No amount of warranty or free this or that would satisfy a person who could suffer complete engine failure down the road. Personally I would find a nice replacement in the dealers lot and express the desire to own it.
Homeofstone is also right on the money with his input.
Your comment
Should I worry about long term affects? Hell YES Unless you like to gamble
Be calm, new motor or new car.
Good Luck

mleskovar

I'm surprised no one commented on this. I'm assuming the dealer never checked it out either or they would have been the first to see this. Isn't that like check #1 after replacing oil? Should have never made it out of the parking lot before the operator saw the light though. I doubt 1 mile did any damage.

Critter

Miles you are right on with your comment, this is why I asked whether the oil was sucked out or drained. When sucking out potentially there was say 1/2 liter or more left in the sump which could have satisfied the oil pressure sending unit. I say "could have", having not seen a Merc started with no oil in the sump I cannot comment on what bells or whistles go off, but one thing is for sure, an engine will run 100,000 miles with A FAULTY oil sending unit but not so far without lubrication, meaning oil. Worse case senario was the sending unit sludged up and actually not operating properly, did it go on when the key is in the on position but not running. Either way the dealership is responsible and the owner will find out in the future, best case for peace of mind in pull the engine, pull the oil pan and rebearing the whole bottom end as well as replace the oil pump, teflon guides and chains. When the engine is open first pull the rod bearing furthest from the oil pump and the proof will be in your hand. You fellas have the benefit of warm weather but here in Canada when the winter temps are -20 and below that engine would sound like a bag of marbles was dropped into it, on cold start.

On the other hand if the engine remains to be perfect then it is a great advertisment for Mobil1 and a testiment to the residual film stability.

N_Jay

The bearing closest to the pump will be the first one to get air instead of oil.

Ichabod

The first thing to lose oil pressure is the camshaft, at the far end of the oil passage system -- I've seen two motors in which the cam bearings went dry, seized up the cam and broke the timing belt (NON-interference engines) and thus saved the whole bottom end from damage.

Critter

Good point N Jay
I stand corrected

N_Jay

Yes, camshaft bearings are very susceptible.
One they are high up so oil flow is lower than bearings in the block.
Second almost all the force is on side of the bearing and not spread around like main and rob bearings.

I'm still standing on the very low chance of significant wear.
(but well worth a non-invasive test)

otto6457

Ichabod is correct to a degree. The items furthest away from the oil pump will stop receiving oil first. However, because of the dynamics of an engine, cam bearing failure is more of a long term oil starvation issue. Meaning, an engine needs to run for a longer period of time without oil fully flowing to the top of the engine before major damage occurs. It's due to how your oil film between metal parts fails. In a camshaft situation there is much less lateral load on the camshaft meaning the oil is not squeezed out to the degree that it occurs in the lower end. Where the force of combustion violently loads the rod and main bearings. Less oil flow is needed for cam bearings than for main and rod bearings and a thinner oil film will provide some protection. As the oil film around the crankshaft is degraded by the lack of oil pressure, the rod and main bearings are forced directly against the crankshaft journals by combustion pressures and the heat and friction rises exponentially. Main and rod bearings fail very quickly without adequate oil pressure. The oil pressure literally 'floats' the crankshaft between the bearing surfaces. Once that fails, it's very hard crankshaft steel directly upon very soft bearings. Once the soft outer bearing coating fails, the harder under layers quickly begin destroying the crankshaft itself.

A camshaft bearing will survive longer without oil pressure. Not a lot longer, but longer. Camshaft bearing failure is much more common in engines where sludge (from not changing the oil enough) clogs the oil passages, or where a vehicle is operated with a low enough oil level that the volume of oil in the system is insufficient to actually rise sufficiently to the camshaft/valve train. Also, high heat from a failed cooling system can cause catastrophic upper engine failure.

A car operated for just a few minutes with no oil in the crankcase will not likely cause much valve train damage. Again, I'm not saying 'no' damage. But I am much more concerned with the lower end than I am with the upper engine in this situation.

Again, good luck with the dealer. A trade in this situation is not the worst idea in the world.