otto6457

Unfortunately, this is a common problem at all dealerships and it's more so in the "quick service" area. In many dealerships the most experienced technicians are not doing what's considered "quick service" repairs. Scheduled maintenence such as oil changes, brakes, alignments, filters, etc., are performed by less experienced and lower paid techs. The reason being is that having lower paid techs perform the "easier" service makes the dealership more money. In some cases....a LOT more money. It also frees up the Master techs to take care of the warranty repairs that are often ONLY dispatched to the Master or senior technicians. In the case at my dealership, only Masters are allowed to do hybrid work and many of our recalls are restricted to Master's only.

It's probably been almost a year since I did an alignment on a customer car. My days are spent on the more difficult repairs, warranty work, and recalls. However, when you take you car in for service, you can request that only a Master or senior tech perform the repairs. It won't always happen, but there is a better chance of getting a more qualified tech assigned to your vehicle than the kid fresh out of school or the recently promoted lube tech doing his first alignment.

AMGAffalterbach

Probably has already been asked but what kind of qualification do these guys need to be an entry level tech? I assume some type of mechanic's school certs from institutes such as UTI or something? Do you just work your way up to become a master tech or do they hire for those positions based on these qualifications?

vettdvr

Most shops will align to center of range and point everything in the green. HOWEVER sometimes to stop pulling right you need to increase right caster more and not be in center of the range, but also keep cross caster in range. This will not give a center to show the customer but would make the car driver right and not have poor tire life. After all that' s why the factory gives a RANGE vs a single number target on the settings.

otto6457

Unfortunately, there is no specific path for getting an entry level job as a technician. We have hired guys off the street and we have hired trade school graduates. A lot of it depends on how desperate a shop is for warm bodies. Since most technicians work on 100% commission, many shops have no problem hiring non qualified techs. It doesn't cost the shop much to take a chance on these walk-up guys. They toss them in the mix and if they screw up too much they just cut them loose. And we cut a bunch of guys loose every year. Honestly, less than 1% of the guys we hire ever become Masters. There is only one other Master Techs in my shop and he's been there 23 years. That's out of 16 techs. There's only 3 guys in our shop with more than 6 years experience. And our shop is pretty normal.

UTI is probably about as good as there is as far as producing useable entry level techs. At least they have factory supported training available for many of the manufacturers. That said, at my shop we have had a wide variation in UTI grads. A few have turned out to be pretty good techs. Some were not worth a plug nickle. Most of them don't stick around long.

Some companies (toyota is one of them) have their own training programs that are in some colleges. But there again, we have had good ones and rotten ones come out of these programs.

The 100% commission pay system is part of the problem for getting good techs. It takes experience to be good at this job. There is no substitute for it. No amount of schooling gets guys ready to fix today's cars. We lose a lot of promising techs because they just can't make a living with 100% commission. It often forces guys to work faster than their skill level and mistakes are expensive. If I make a mistake, it comes out of my pocket. Not only the free labor to fix my mistake, but if new parts are involved, I pay for those also. It's a tough business.

As far as hiring Master Techs. In the big markets a lot of Master Techs play the job hopping game. Moving from shop to shop and usually getting a raise for each move. I live in a medium sized city so that opportunity isn't available. When I go to Toyota school I'll often meet techs that make $10.00 an hour more than I do simply because they change jobs every few years. Guys with less than a third of my experience often make a lot more money than I do. Just another reason a lot of good techs leave the profession. It's one of the main reasons I'm looking at going back to college and getting out of the business. That, and at my age, it just gets harder and harder to do the job. It's a young man's career.

Us old timers are a dying breed. Literally.

otto6457

^This^

Our main front end guy has never been to any sort of formal suspension training. He had a 1 day Hunter training course which was basically how to operate the machine as quickly as possible. He still doesn't understand why he can align a car with everything "green" and the customer brings it back still pulling. He's convinced that if the machine says it's "green" he has done his job.

Drives me insane.

vettdvr

Exactly my point and why so many MB owners have issues with the car pulling right. It really frustrates me to pay $$$ to someone for an alignment and they show center green. This means to me they don't know how to align. I was aligning my car in my garage in 1970 with gauges and straight edges. I set the car up to drive and not have excessive tire wear. IF the car is in good shape not bent you can do this. Unfortunately as you pointed out most shops can only center the green. When I try to talk to the tech about the work they act as I am speaking Martian and they dont' know what I am talking about. The only reason I don't do it any longer is being well over 65 makes it very difficult for me to do the work.

ekm

First alignment on my car (135K) was just finished last week...$129 at my local MB dealer. Nothing was wrong except some slight toe in that was adjusted. When I called to inquire, the base price was $129 and if shimming or adding adjusting bolts the rate would go up.
The steering wheel is off a few degrees from center when driving straight. Do they have a centering pin used?

I was happy with my price and finding nothing else wrong.

joelas

Two adjustments on the tie rod near the wheels adjust both the toe in and the centering of the wheel. Extend one side and retract the other exactly the same amount in theory. but on mine I had to rotate the front wheels after having corrected the wheelbase at the frame shop and centering all the other adjustments.

joelas

After moving right front wheel forward and inch to spec 269 cm between axles and readjusting angles, it pulled to the left instead of Right. So we moved the left wheel 3/8 inch forward and it improved. but the final move was to center perfectly both toe in front and rear and its was still better. then the tech suggested rotating the froni tires which only had 1000 miles and that did it. straight, hands off and the wheel centered.

ptkacik

FWIW, I'm a mechanical engineering professor and just completed an alignment sensitivity study that included measuring my '05 E320 CDI alignment 180 times.

1. They don't go out of alignment if nothing has been bent seriously.
2. Having a load on the left side (like having a driver in his seat) will decamber the left side.
3. There is no camber adjustment in the rear but spring sag will make it go out. MB will say this is because you crashed your car. They really don't want to have to adjust it in production.
4. If you spin the back tires at a green light, you will wear out the rear tire inner edges.
5. The front camber bolts give you a fixed single step adjustment. If they don't move it far enough, that is your problem. There is no second step.
6. A non-flat floor and a cockeyed single tire pressure can mess up the measurements more than you might guess.

A straight car will pull to the right due to road crown so caster is split to fix this. That is, there should be slightly more left side caster than right to minimize the pull. In the left lane on the highway, it may then pull slightly to the left. Overall it is a balancing act.

Electronic power steering (EPAS) is programmed to mask this pull. If the suspension has a bad caster split, it still won't pull because of EPAS; however, the steering can feel really weird.

Good luck,
Peter

lattle

Sorry to revive such an old thread, but I am experiencing issues with a similar subject. I am in the process of replacing the lower control arm bushings on my '04 E500 wagon, and when I removed the bolts for the lower control arms the left front rearward bushing had an adjustable eccentric pin, where as the other 3 bolts were all just normal bolts.

This car has not been wrecked, but I am not the original owner. It had been dealer maintained by the previous owner. I would assume it would not come from the factory this way. Why would the dealer put just one adjustable bolt in? What would be the benefit? Also--- I'm thinking that since I will have new bushings if I could just go back to stock on that bolt, or should I go ahead and replace the other three with adjustable bolts. They are $15 each on amazon, so a minor investment...but it would be a whole lot easier to do now since I have everything apart. Opinions are appreciated!

mtrevelino

My take on this is that if you replace the lower control arms, you can use the stock bolts. Again, this is in a perfect setting. The adjustment bolts are, to me, a temporary and cheap fix than replacing the control arms.
The dealer (or who ever) installed just one adjustable bolt because they could not get that one measurement into spec.
I am coming up on 150k on my 06 cdi. When I have to purchase my next set of tires, I may be looking at replacing some front suspension parts to get the alignment within specifications. My last alignment, my indie installed two adjustable bolts. One side he was able to get it dead on spec, the other side, he said he still could not get it into spec, that I may be looking on replacing the lower control arms at my next alignment. Fingers crossed, these tires have been wearing great.
Just my $.02
Mike T.

EuroDriverSD

Same here. I just recently replaced most of the front suspension components and I ordered the camber/caster bolts just in case. Alignment shop installed the 2 camber bolts and told me the caster bolts were not needed, as they were able to adjust caster within specs.


FYI, I have lifetime alignment a Firestone. When I first had it aligned when I bought the car, they did not do it within spec and told me no further adjustment was possible. This time, I told them I had the camber bolts but they would not install them - they offered that if I installed them, they would adjust them but I didn't trust them. Based on the recommendations of my SA, I took it to Courtney Tires. They installed the bolts and aligned it perfectly within specs for about $100.

ptkacik

Mercedes uses the eccentric bolts to give you the ability to do minor alignment adjustments. For example, on my '05 E320, the front camber was too negative and so I put in the bolts to move it (just barely) back into the green range. Switching control arm parts means you might need to leave it alone or go back to the original bolts. Only a wheel alignment will tell you for sure.

After changing a suspension part, I would recommend a wheel alignment. However, if you don't, I would leave the bolts where they were. There is more to alignment than deformed bushings, there are also settled springs and shocks.

Good luck,
Peter

lattle

I have a 3 year alignment with NTB. They had a discount on it when I bought my Michelin's there a few months ago. I also don't trust their ability, and will probably take it to the dealer in Asheville. This whole front end project started because my tires were wearing excessively, and I was getting a fair amount of drift. When I tested the bushings, I got a minor amount of play...not horrible...but enough that I figured it would not hurt. Plus, I was getting a lot of suspension noise when going over bumps. The ball joints are new, as are the sway bar links. The upper control arm is also newer. I have airmatic, so no strut mount to speak of...that leaves the LCA bushings.

After seeing a couple responses here, and further research I am inclined to put an original bolt back in and remove the adjustable one. I'll have it available to the tech who does the alignment in case they can't get it back into spec. Hopefully I'll get a good tech! Unless you're in a larger city, it's really hard to find a good indy that knows how to work on these cars. The couple that I have found, don't do alignments.