Barry45RPM

From NBC News:

http://www.nbcnews.com/business/gm-s...les-6C10272201

Stop with the name calling & deal with the facts.

06E5004ME

Wait, is it something I said that doesn't make sense?

While the Lexus/Acura trend you described might have been true 10-15 years ago, it is simply not the case today. It is not true to say that Lexus does not exceed in luxury as the newer LS seem to have more standard equipment than a comparable S-Class. I am looking for a good CPO value for next year and have been comparing BMW, Audi, Mercedes and Lexus. For $40k you can get an 07-08 BMW 750, 07-08 Mercedes S550, or 09-10 Lexus LS460. Performance-wise the three are pretty much identical, but what comes standard on an LS, BMW and Mercedes charge extra. This has been one of my major issues with German car manufacturers. My 211 was bought for around $70k in 2006. I do not have integrated Bluetooth while an 05 Prius had it standard and it works wonderfully. To get Bluetooth, I have to go to Mercedes and shell out more than $500... ridiculous.

Lexus CPO warranty runs for 3 years after purchase or until 100k miles while Mercedes CPO is good for 1 year after purchase or until 100k miles. Note that I am basing this on the research I've been doing on the S-Class vs. LS. I've driven both and if you close your eyes, they are the same car. German car manufacturers rely heavily on the brand image these days. I try to keep an open mind when comparing German cars to Japanese competitors and you can't judge the car until you drive it and I suggest anyone who is looking at the big 3 German luxury automakers to look at the Lexus too.

AMGAffalterbach

Out of full respect to you, it's still a Toyota... while every Lexus I have ever driven or been in has exceeded in reliability and quality, there is still something missing from it. It's an almost intangible quality that the German 3 have and it's not just status. You pay out quite a bit more for features that should be standard but I still can't equate the driving experience of a Lexus to a Mercedes.

EDIT: Oh looking back the thing I meant didn't make sense was the idea of buying a hybrid-electric vehicle. I understand the attraction of the Volt or a Prius but you will save a lot more money if fuel is your concern in the long run with a diesel that don't have such a high initial investment that overshadows 5+ years of ownership savings in fuel. I still think the technology of electric cars or hybrid cars is either a stepping stone to something better, or not quite developed enough to reap full benefit of their intended goal. That's all, nothing against what you said but I find the Prius a very bland expression of environmentalism that is ultimately misguided.

06E5004ME

I hear you. There is something that is off with driving dynamics on smaller models with Lexus models. While the IS-F competes directly with BMW M3 and Mercedes C63 AMG, the Lexus does not have the history to improve and advance on. However, I think it will be interesting to see what Lexus, Acura, and Infinity have to offer 10-15 years from now. In addition, to say that Lexus is just a Toyota is like saying Audi is just an expensive VW, which in reality is not true. Thanks to VW and its vast resources we have seen great technological advances. I'd argue that if it weren't for VW, we wouldn't see Veyron come to life.

Speaking of hybrids, I agree with you. I'd rather have a diesel Jetta rather than a Hybrid that either came out or coming out soon. Best part is that the hybrid and diesel get identical MPG. I guess people still think that diesel cars are noisy, dirty, and smoke every time you give it gas.

AMGAffalterbach

I absolutely agree. Not to say that Lexus is just a Toyota that was a bit harsh, I agree that they are valuable brands that have many benefits to ownership but still have that element missing. Lexus is really making great strides in the hybrid market for instance, and those are honestly the only hybrids I would consider buying as their styling and luxury aren't compromised like many out there.

I guess that is still the impression regarding diesels, but you're right those days are over. You pay about 10% more for diesel I've heard, but you get something like a 20-25% fuel savings (or more) over gasoline so it balances out nicely. Plus the low-end torque is something to respect for sure. A guy in the Metro VDubs meets has a tuned Golf TDI (I guess it's still considered a GTI) and the exhaust note on that diesel is amazing, sounds like a smaller displacement V8 and definitely tougher than any BMW exhaust I've heard. That's a good option right there.

surfingva

Thanks to everyone for the insightful discussion. I do want to make a couple of points related to reliability. I grew up in Europe (a while ago) and a Mercedes was treated as a family asset, similar to a house. A 150,000 kilometer vehicle was considered new and sold for slightly less than a brand new one. It was not uncommon to have vehicles exceed 300,000 km and still sell for a premium. Fast forward to today, and the general agreement is that the probability of significant repairs on a E500 class at 100k miles is almost certainty; this is reflected in the depreciation of these vehicles. I would make the point that technical advancement is not only putting gadgets or features in a vehicle, but it is also ensuring that they remain operational for a reasonable amount of time. Why would an MB need new engine mounts ever, let alone at 100k miles? Why would a failed strut effectively disable a vehicle? The list can go on. So as an engineer, I have lost some respect for the MB given the reliability (and expense of repairs), but have to admit I still have some admiration and someday may end up with one. Just for kicks, conventional wisdom back then was that if you want fancy, fast but repair prone, buy italian (Alfa Romeo etc.). Has MB of the 21st centry become the Alfa Rome of the 20th century?

Regarding the lexus, it was uninspiring but my wife loves them because they are smooth and reliable. Enough said ...

Regarding the electrical versus hybrid; i think what attracts a lot of people to the Volt (myself included) is the technology combined with the fuel cost (or lack). Given where I live and my daily mileage, the money doesn't add up; electricity is pretty cheap and even so, it will take me 7-8 years at my mileage to make up the difference in purchase price between the Volt and the equivalent gas Chevy model; that's just too long, yet I am entertaining one because of the technology associated with the vehicle. Hybrids used to be like that but the tech factor is dropping; and the Prius drive is loud and doesn't quite do it for me.

Regarding the environmental aspects of electics etc., there is an interesting article in IEEE spectrum
(http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/rene...n-at-any-speed)
I for sure do not agree with the author but there is a lot of interesting discussion in the comments (as usual you have to sort through the name calling and political fanatics).

AMGAffalterbach

Why would an MB need new engine mounts ever? Because they are a wear part, as with any car... especially one with a torquey engine...

fila0220

I had a 2003 e500 with 105,000 on the clock which I drove like i stole. I did have to replace 1 of the shocks, spark plugs, and an sbc pump (covered by the 10 year warranty) The car made some weird buzzing noises, and the seats in the rear also made ghost farting noises when i would reverse, but all in all solid car, even for it being a 2003. The guy i sold it too is still driving it with 160k miles and its been 4 years.

I also had a 2008 e550 4matic. That car couldn't really comment on reliability because i had it only for 12,000 miles, but solid as a rock at 70k. I replaced a torn wire that lead to the car being raised. 100 dollar fix. That's it.

The suspension seems to be the weak spot like in most benzes,

EDIT: and just for ****s and giggles. I see some of us are discussing reliability. My old car before the 550, had 69,000 on the clock and i drove it similar to the way i drive all my cars. The suspension went out, followed by the transmission, followed by the engine with a blown bearing. all within 5000 miles. The car eventually died via co parts.

The Thomas J

Before I settled on the Benz I was feverishly looking for a 2008-09' Jag XJ. Test drove 3 of them. One was an XJR which just ruined me for the standard XJ. The XJR was so nice but out of my price range. I really did not like the power or the ride of the XJ8. Plus, the XJR & XJ8 was a considerable amount more to insure than I wanted to pay.

Happy I went with the Benz. However, what drew me to the Jag was that there weren't that many around. The car is a really head turner. So is the E-class, but I see myself coming & going they are everywhere. I see my car, same color. same rims, same sport package about 20 times a day.

fila0220

yea man, that was my exact scenario. I love cars that are unique, or not a dime a dozen. The XJR was perfect for the time i had it, i guess there is a reason there aren't too many around. Its what also pushed me back to Mercedes

The Thomas J

Every car I have ever owned with air suspension has been a nightmare, with the exception of one. That was my 95' Oldsmobile Auora. It had the rear air shocks that I never had an issue with that or the air compressor. However the rest of the car was bad news. Blew the engine at 72,000 miles.I shut it off & it never started again. Broken cam. I serviced it on a regular basis. It always had a check engine light on that several dealers could not figure out what was wrong with it. It would cause it to shudder on the highway. They replaced plugs, wires, filters. The actual cause of the motor seizing was something that was pretty common with certain N* motors. The AC compressor froze & instead of free wheeling it locked up & broke a cam.

Had a new used motor put in drove it for 3 more months than the ECM went out & left me stranded on the Raritan bridge going over the Garden state parkway in July during 80 mph traffic. Towed it back home, parked it until the lease was up in November. The next day I went out & leased a VW Passat. Been leasing or buying late model CPO German cars ever since.


My Lincoln had airbag issues, height sensor issues, compressor issues. 3 of my 4 caddy's all had the air suspension replaced except for one, that's because that car had a normal shock spring setup.

I steer clear from pre-owned cars with air suspension. Even the service warranty companies don't cover air suspension, at least the ones I have dealt with.

AMGAffalterbach

Lincoln Air Suspension is a nightmare from what I hear, as are most American cars in general if you are used to European vehicles in the first place. From what I understand most Lincolns with air suspension you can't lift the car with air suspension on or you have to reset the entire system, etc

The Thomas J

It has to be shut off from a switch inside the trunk. That switch went bad on me & caused me all sorts of headaches. It was by accident I figured out that the switch was bad.

AMGAffalterbach

That's an annoying problem, glad you can lift airmatic without issue.