N_Jay

Seems the Check Engine comes on for 1 to 3 days every time the weather crosses the freezing mark.

Wondering if others have seen the same issue and can point to a fix.

Yes, I need to get the code read, but it is the wife's cart so I usually get reminded "Later".

CDIJeff

Kinda hard to say with no code, all I can say is mine was running way to cold when the thermostat broke. On-top of cold weather might throw a code.

N_Jay

Did the thermostat a few year's ago.
it comes up to temp fine.

EuroDriverSD

As stated above, hard to give an opinion without a code. However, I went through this issue for the past 2 or 3 months where CEL was triggered on particularly cold or rainy days. Every time I tried to get it to the dealer, the CEL would turn off. It would only stay on for 1-3 driving cycles, up to 2-3 days at a time.


I forgot what code it stored, but it turned out to be the intake manifold. There's a known issue where the butterfly that controls the air flaps breaks.

N_Jay

The smog inspection did show two codes (but still passed).
P2006. Wondering if it is actually "stuck/broken" or just sticky in cold weather?
P0022. Camshaft timing. Again, wonder if this is the typical sensor problem. I think I had all of them done about 40K to 60K or so miles ago.

EuroDriverSD

Yup, P2006 is the intake manifold. There's a plastic butterfly lever on the front of it that breaks, causing the air flaps to stay either opened or closed. (In my case and probably yours too, the flaps stayed open, thus causing the CEL when cold). You can find a replacement online anywhere from ~$60-275. I decided to replace the entire intake manifold on my SA's advice that the plastic rods and bushings that hold the flaps may also wear out and bind, thus causing the butterfly to break. If something on the inside of the manifold breaks off, the piece(s) can fall into the engine and cause catastrophic failure.


There's no way to replace the butterfly or inspect the flaps without removing the IM. In my case, the rods and flaps seemed fine with no binding or resistance at all, but I have peace of mind in replacing the entire manifold - It's your call whether to replace just the butterfly.


I had some camshaft code too (might be the same as P0022 but I don't remember). Diagnostics revealed 3 of the 4 camshaft magnets were bad. I replaced all 4. You can get a pack with all 4 on Amazon for about $100 - I opted to order from RM European for about 16 more because they ship super fast. (got the IM from them too).
Hope this helps - let us know how it goes.

N_Jay

Well, after buying a new (to me, used) air compressor and a bunch of tools for working on my 914,m I guess I better do the job myself or I am going to lose mechanic cred with the wife (and hence tool buying budget).
It will have to wait for warmer weather and a slow week at work.

Anyone in the Chicago NW suburbs want to help?

N_Jay

Looks like the whole manifold is about $500 to $550 plus gaskets.

There are a LOT of butterfly lever kits out there, so I am wondering just how bad it is just to do the lever?

I am also a little behind in replacing the oil separator/crankcase vent and gasket that has been seeping, so it will give me a good excuse to dig in and do it all the at the same time.

davidjohnbamber

I owned a 2007 E350 that I bought with 50k. The car on a few occasions would throw a CEL. The code was retarded camshaft timing IIRC. It definitely seemed to be temperature related as it only occurred when the temps were cooler, and only when it was the first start of the day. I could clear the fault code using my OBD2 scanner, or ignore it, and the CEL would go off on it's own after a few days. I would suggest purchasing a OBD2 scanner to find out what your fault codes are, and go from there.

N_Jay

I have a scanner, just have not checked because the CEL went back off.

Guess I have a little more diagnosing before ordering parts.

EuroDriverSD

I got the new Pierburg manifold where I mentioned for $475 & free shipping. To do the lever, you have to pull the manifold. At that point, you'll know whether you got away with it or if you should have bought the whole thing. If you're tight for cash, you might want to do just the butterfly for now (assuming the internals of your manifold are still intact) and replace the whole thing somewhere down the road when it doesn't pinch the piggybank as much.


Like I said, my old manifold is still in very good shape - if you're interested in in (or find out you need to replace it) send me a pm.


I also did the centrifuge cover, expansion plug, cam plugs, cam sensor o-rings, injector O-rings and knock sensors while I was in there. Also, don't forget you're going to need a new gasket for the throttle body too.

N_Jay

Looks like the manifold can be had for just under $500, but for just over it comes with gaskets.

Trying to asses the risk of doing the aluminum lever. There are a lot of kits for sale, and lots of posts warning about potential problems, but looking for anyone who has actually heard/seen a problem.

EuroDriverSD

FWIW, I put an aluminum lever on my new intake. I ordered the kit from RM European and it also comes with the main diaphragm that also has a metal lever.


I have yet to hear first-hand of anyone suffering a catastrophic engine failure for not replacing the entire manifold, but I did read a couple posts with pics with broken internals. Also, I have read several stories of ppl who only did the lever and got the check engine light again shortly afterwards. For the amount of effort that goes into removing the manifold, imho if you can afford it, just do the entire intake - that way you'll know you're good to go for a long stretch.

cmriv

500 for a new manifold is a great price. I would install new manifold if it were me but money is a priority in life so do what suites you.but if you have any questions about the repair i would be glad to help. I'm not local to you but can do this repair with my eyes closed and three sheets to the wind (jk). but it is a fairly easy repair.

N_Jay

Given the better looking fix kits are $100 and a used manifold if $300 and new with gaskets is just over $500, I will probably go new.
Will have to gather up all the other tidbits I want to do at the same time.

cmriv

you'll need the following.
injector o rings
TB gasket, if new manifold doesn't come with one
IM gaskets and hardware
vacuum cleaner to clean debris from cylinder head where manifold rests
brake clean and some blue shop paper towels to clean mating surfaces
also wouldn't be a bad move to clean all the residual carbon you see/find too

N_Jay

Some have said you need new bolts? Any truth to that?

Adding to that the crankcase/head vent/oil separator and gaskets, and I think there are some cam plugs that get done at the same time.
Then the cam sensors, if that error persists.
A set of air filter elements.

Anything else while I am in there?
I did plus a few months back.

cmriv

hardware=bolts that hold manifold to heads. Yes, 1 time use. Magnesium stretch bolts. same bolts as trans pan bolts on .9 trans.... Same concept, maybe not exact same ones but same concept.
you'd be able to replace your cps in 2 seconds with all of that removed as well....

N_Jay

Wife is going to freak out seeing her car so far apart.

So do the injectors come out, or do you just need new O-rings because you are pulling the fuel rails?

Anything else I should plan on doing to a 07 E350 daily driver with 140K miles?

Current plan is for her to have it to 200K and them it will go to one of the kids or be sold.

CDIJeff

If your already taking everything apart not to sure on the gas, but I would check your motor mounts. I plan to replace all three of my mounts around 150k.

EuroDriverSD

I would also suggest that while you're at it, change the centrifuge cover, cam plugs & expansion plug in the back. Depending on your mileage, you might also want to do your crankshaft position sensor. Oh yeah, get yourself a meter of new vacuum hose, especially for the two hoses at the front of the manifold. And watch the nipple on the pressure sensor! I ended up having to buy a new one


While I was in there, I also installed new knock sensors, just for posterity (since they're under the manifold).


I checked with my MBZ SA and he confirmed that on the M272, there is no need to replace the bolts (I believe he said that's only true for the M111).


Finally, a quick piece of advice worth its weight in gold I got from my SA:
You will soon learn what a royal PITA it is to keep the IM gaskets in place while trying to lower and set the IM. He suggested I use some guide bolts as temporary dowels.


I bought four M6x65mm bolts, ground off the heads and made a slot on the tops. Pick 2 bolt holes on each side (I found the 1st and 3rd bolt holes from the front of the engine most convenient). Drop the gaskets in place on the engine, line up the manifold with the dowels and drop into place. Once you start a couple of bolts, remove the dowels (that's where the slots come in handy for a flat blade screwdriver).
Much easier that locking the gaskets onto the manifold and risk misalignment or bending the gaskets. It's going to save you a ton of time and bumps from banging your head against the wall (or engine).


One more piece of advice: vacuum up as much dirt and sand from the engine/base of the manifold before removal. No matter how much you try and clean it, you will end up with some crap falling into the valve ports. Point is, avoid as much of it as you can beforehand.

EuroDriverSD

I think it's very possible to remove the manifold without separating the injectors from fuel rail. However, they going to get wiggled around. It's up to you if you want to chance it. The O-rings are dirt cheap, but it is a bit time-consuming to pull the injectors and replace the upper o-rings. The bottom O-rings are not optional when you transfer the fuel rail and injectors to the new manifold. At that point, you're in so deep, it's rather convenient to do the upper O-rings while you're there. Again, your call.


Beside everything mentioned above, I did the cam magnets and the cam sensor 0-rings as well. Your time and cash is the limit as to how far down the hole you want to chase the rabbit but the more you do now, the longer you're likely to avoid down time in the future.


BTW, my manifold from RME came with the throttle body gasket.

N_Jay

Trying to understand the bolts as dowels?

Are you saying that you screw them into the head just slightly less than flush, then withdraw them through the IM after it is in place?

Also trying to understand the cam sensor magnet issue. I thought it was one part, but reading seems the magnets are separate? Do they fail often, or is it just a precaution since the sensor would have to come back out?

I assume the new sensors come with new O-rings? (I was planning on doing the sensors, since they seem cheap, and I have received a few codes on them. (at least one of them)

I have not had the crankshaft sensor fail. How often does this go? How hard to do with the manifold in place (Am I really saving any work?)

As for the knock sensors, how often do these fail? I am a big believer in not replacing parts that have a low likelihood of failing and are not "wear" items, as the old part is tried and tested, and the new part can be an unknown.

EuroDriverSD

The bolts as dowels: They are going to act as guides to drop the manifold in place with perfect alignment while holding the gaskets in place. Imagine the intake manifold bolts - they are holding the manifold in place. If you break off the heads of the bolts and leave them bolted into the heads, they would act as perfect alignment pins ("dowels") to set the new manifold in place. However, once the manifold is set, they would be sitting flush or below the surface of the manifold bolt holes, so they would be impossible to remove in order to put new bolts in. Thus, you need to use longer bolts that stick out over the top of the manifold surface so you can remove them (thus, longer bolts without heads). A slit on the top would allow you to use a screwdriver to unscrew them to remove. I'll try to take pics tonight of the ones I used to give you a better idea.


Cam magnets: I had codes for bad magnets (3 out of 4), so I went ahead and replaced all 4. They are all the same part number and yes, they come with O-rings. There are 4 cam magnets and 4 cam sensors. They are located near each other on the front of each cylinder head. The magnets do eventually go bad - I can't comment on the longevity of the sensors, as I haven't had an issue with them yet.


Crankshaft Position Sensor: I have read plenty of threads re: the CPS going bad and it's a bit of a PITA to get to, which is much easier while the intake is removed. I did mine after the fact and while it's doable, the space is very tight and half the job is by feel, since you can barely get a glimpse of it without your hands/tools in the way as it is. Some say the CPS is not as much of an issue on the M272 as on other engines, but I read plenty of threads that disagree.


Knock sensors: I rarely hear of them failing but honestly, if they fail I suspect most people ignore them because they don't cause any major malfunction (just makes the engine more prone to knocking/pinging). Can't tell you they're a must but in my case, I reasoned that my car is approaching 9 years old and has 144K miles. If I left it up to Murphy's law, shortly after installing the new manifold, one would fail and I'd have to pull the manifold out again. At less than $20 apiece, I figured I'd put new ones in while they were accessible.


On that note, I did the CPS (crank position sensor) because I developed a hard starting issue after the IM replacement. Everything I read indicated a bad CPS so I changed it. It wasn't the problem. Just dropped off my car at the shop this morning and the SA told me that sometimes after replacing the cam magnets, the ECU software has to be updated. The newer cam magnets are an updated part (originals have been superseded) and sometimes not recognized by the older software.


Hope all of this helps. Sounds overwhelming but it really isn't.

N_Jay

I assumed the intake bolts were at an angle and, but if they are straight bank to bank, I see what you mean about dowels.

I thought you change d the cam sensors when you have the error, is this incorrect, and you are actually changing the magnets? (What is the more common failure?)

Murphy's law would have me remove a good knock sensor and put in one with an early life failure.

I think I will hold off on the CPS, as again, Murphy bites me backwards.