Fellow 211 luvers

Before going forward with my question, please understand that I am not putting down our favorite car. I am just looking for ways to make it handle better (in my books)

I have not driven my 03 E500 (with airmatic) close to 2 months and have been driving my wife's X5 during this time. After 2 months of dodging around in LA traffic with the X5, I finally went back to the E and suddenly felt that the E's handling needs 'tweaking'.

My E appears to be a 'bigger boat' and not as agile.

Do you have ideas how to improve the ride and handling? Lowering, upgrading the wheels .... any ideas?

Again, please don't take this negatively as I'm just looking for ideas to make my ride more compliant to my taste.

Thanks in advance

 

As you mentioned, I think a few upgrades on the wheels and a lowering of the body will raise the vehicle's handling capabilities. Good luck and hope you can find a solution!

 

i think lowering the car will help, and better tires would help. with those two mods, handling should be a lot noticable. GL

 

Hi

The problem is that Mercedes owners want great handling but also the soft ride that Mercs are known for. A tricky balance. Personally I wish that my airmatic had a bigger difference between the 3 settings and this would hopefully give me the best of both worlds.

Any suggestion on tyres. I have Dunlop 9000 on mine, factory fit, 16" wheels. When I change them I would be interested in views on a replacement.

 

By no means are you putting it down... well I guess technically you are, but it is true.

W211 HANDLING SUCKS

And I have an E55.

I think it has something to do with my car weighing in at over 4000lbs. And the dimensions grew. It is like a big boat. The W210 E55 was better. My CLK is way better. My 190E even better than that. And an E30 M3... OK, enough.

I love my E55 but I have decided that it is not the car to track.

-s-

 

tirerack.com is a really good place to see tires, and you can prefer performance over noise, so it will match up the best ones. GL

 

Scorchie - Some time try the E320 with the airmatic suspension. I'd sure be interested if you find its handling more like the other Merecedes you describe because of its lower weight.

 

Well, I have driven an E320 with airmatic for a little while (10 miles or so).

First thing I noticed was that the steering was sooooo light! I had a tough time adapting to this, so I didn't really want to throw it into any turns. Plus, it had the stock skinny tires, which may have contributed to the light steering, but didn't contribute to my confidence in it holding well in a curve.

To me, the W211 is still feels like a big car... I find it drives more like a W220 S55 than a W210 E55.

But I love the power, and I really like the almost everything about the design, except the climate control display and that I can't push both up/down to get it back to 72.

-s-

 

I agree with the post above in regards to weight. The W211 is never going to handle like a sports car. Just too heavy. Period.

#1 way to increase handling - tires or tires and wheels.

Stiffening up the suspension would be a help as well - but I wouldn't want to go too extreme in that department or you run a risk of changing the very nature of the car.

The W211 is a cruiser.

Before anyone starts flaming me and goes on about the E55 - let me say this: the E55 is a really fast car - but it won't be beating up on Lotus Elises on the track (except for the 1/4 mile - and I'm not really a big fan of drag racing)

 

You can probably get what you want just with tires.

Go to the front of the class on performance tires: Michelin PS2 if they have the size (and they don't seem to) or a Bridgestone S03 or Pirelli PZero Russo.

They will sharpen up the steering and on edge handling a bit. At the expense of noise (especially with the S03s), ride (all three), and tread life.

A stiffly sprung car doesn't handle better per se, it has quicker transients and can be twichy. To me at least, a good handler is balanced on entry and exit, and lets you put the power down early and hard.

Example: an 00-03 Honda S2000 was stiffly shocked, neutral, and twichy. Fun to drive on some roads, but not for a longer drive. The '04 rides like a limo (by comparison at least). It is not twichy *(although the steering, though slower, is still rather quick). But it can put down tons of power exiting turns that would have the earlier car swapping ends.

Handling is not so easy to define.

 

Hi DavidNJ and others

You are absolutely right that handling is not easy to define.

Though I am aware of the 'fun factor' of some high performance pocket rockets such as S2000, Porsche911 and others, I am not looking or attempt to duplicate that on a W211.

But after driving the X5 for 2 months, and mind you, the X5 is not small and kind of top heavy, I have found it to have pretty good handling characteristics (no wonder my wife loves it -- my gift to her). Because the E and the X5 is similar in size, I was wondering how I can refine the handling on the E500 so that it feels less of a boat. Don't get me wrong, I think the E handles pretty well (at least better then my mother's previous generation E), but I do have a wish to tighten it a tad better. It is by no means as bouncy as my old man's caddy but it does have some boat like characteristics.

Before I start buying bigger rims and tires, to the younger and more daring w211 folks who have upgraded their rims to 18 or bigger, have you notice tighter performance???

Sorry for my rambling.

Thanks in advance

 

I have 18x8.5 AMGs - honestly I didn't buy them for improved handling - just the looks. 16" rims on the W211 look ridiculously small.

The ride is pretty much the same - much to my relief.

Doesn't Airmatic come standard with the E500? The full sport mode firms things up pretty nicely IIRC.

 

DavidNJ - I have the 18" AMG double spoke E55 style rims staggered - 8" in front and 9" in the back. It does give a slightly harsher ride over rough pavement but I definitely noticed a tremendous improvement in "stick". I can whip around an off ramp that before would have had the stock Conti's howling. The Pirelli PZero Rosso's stick like glue. This setup is my summer set - the stock sport wheels will likely get a set of performance snows come November. Good luck with your decision. Call Luke at the Tire Rack for info on the various tires. S-03's were my next choice.

Bruce

 

Not a MB owner, but just thought I'd share my experience...

I had Dunlops 8080 on my car, and they were... sufficient, but nothing else. Three weeks ago my Michelin Pilot Sport PS2s came in, in the same stock sizes, and they practically transfered the car. A lot more grip, crisper turn in... All in all the car suddenly feels a couple hundred pounds lighter, even though nothing but the tires has changed.

I say upsize the rims to 17'' or 18'' and get some really good high performance summer tires (PS2s, SO3s, in this order). Just remember that summer tires do not work in below freezing temperatures

 

My guess is that the PZero Russos would have he same improvement in the 17" size as they do in the 18" size. That the difference is PZero vs. Conti ContactTouring or even Conti SportContact2.

The PZero won Autocar's '03 and '04 tire tests, the PS2's won in the dry in '04, however not overall. The PS2 looked dominant in the Tire Rack test though, and it is the newest design. It is also the best tire available in Porsche Turbo and C4S rear size (295/30-18)

Some people like the low profile look. I am not as great a fan. I haven't done back-to-back tests, however I think that the smaller wheel with more tire sizewall (tire design, overall diameter, and width being constant) may be more forgiving.

A practical--in contrast with asthetic--reason for large rims is to fit larger brakes. There are some high performance cars where the brakes take up the whole wheel. DTM race cars are one. When you are constrained in wheel size yet need bigger brakes (such as F1) you get those strange double caliper carbon brake setups.

I haven't heard of anyone change the brakes on an W211. It may require reprogramming the Sensotronic brakes. And I don't know anyone racing near stock W211s (other than maybe drag racing).

So I would go to the high performance tires on the stock wheels. I would also pay the $160/year to run the snows and summer tires on the same rims. It gets the tires rebalanced twice per year.

For 16" rims, 245/50 16s. Limited brands will mean you will probably need all season high performance tires such as PZero Nero M+S, Michelin Pilot Sport A/S, or Falken ZE512.

For 17" rims 245/45-17, there is a pretty broad choice. Just no PS2s.

Get 18" wheels, then you can get the PS2s. In NY, I wouldn't suggest that. In LA, maybe it will work.

David

P.S.
Was that X5 a Sport Package? They are sprung and shocked very stiffly.Way too stiff. It was early sign BMW was losing its edge.

And, the X5 is 6" shorter, 2.5" wider, 10" taller and weighs 1000# more.

 

Hi David

Thanks for the detail breakdown. I'll investigate upgrading the rubber on my 17" unless someone with hands-on experience indicate that bigger rims will improve handling. At this time, I am content with the "looks" and will only go for the bigger rims if they improve the handling.

My wife's X5 is the non sport pkg and the ride is respectable for a 5000lb truck. It does bounce a bit (rather unusual for an uni-body design) but what it impresses me is that it is as nimble as my older 3 series.

I was aware that the X is shorter and taller than the E, but not aware that it is wider. In any case, I think there is room for improvement on the handling on this wonderfully design W211.

Thanks to all for the suggestions. If you have more, please keep it rolling.

p.s. lig .... yes the E500 does have the airmatic and yes it does allow 'hardening' the ride. What I am looking for is not a harsh ride but a nimble ride --- good lateral g #

 

Turn-in is heavily affected by front negative camber. Not that in the US open wheel series, NASCAR, and until recently F1, all of the cars ran heavy front-negative camber even though they have complete freedom in front-end geometry.

On a stock Honda S2000, I'm told going to 1 deg negative from 0 camber on an '04 can make the turn-in as sharp an earlier model (the new model puts down power much better).

I would keep it within factory specs, however going to the maximum negative setting in front may give you some of that agility.

I don't think that max lateral Gs are what you are looking for. The X5 is not a superstar on a skidpad. It also isn't all that great hammering out of the turns (where races are won). However it does have good turn in.

The tires in the Max Performance class on the Tire Rack site would generally (and in the ones we discussed definitely) have good turn it.

 

Please compare apple to apple, e.g. bwm 5 to mb e. I believe w211 has a pretty decent handling. (I know 5er handling is better than e but they face different markets.)

All SUVs' gravity centers are higer than sedans. Try to turn sharply in any ramps in a high speed. (X5 cannot make it. your old 3er, my old 5er, and our w211 can make it.)

 

However GearHead LIKED the X5. So the solution is to determine what he liked and the best way to approximate it.

Yes, the X5 is not a sedan. But it isn't that bad either. The W211 has its issues. So, the effort to bridge the gap.

 

Hi Otto

I hope I am not giving you the impression that I am a speedster or a NASCAR wannabe.

What I am referring to that the X5 with a higher center of gravity seem to handle the 'lean' better than my E.

Around LA freeway system are alot of transition ramps. After driving the X5 for 2 months, I felt that it has respectable handling around bends on these ramps. While I am re-acquainting to my E's handling characteristics, I find myself comparing how different my E handles the same ramp.

That's how this handling stuff got started.

 

I can't disagree with you on this: my W210, with upgrade shock & wheels, make my W211 feel like a Buick !!!

And my W211 does have sport wheel (17"), and sticky tires (Michellin)

As for now, I use the W210 for spirit driving (weekend).

Some people seem don't get it: upgrading tire can change your car handling charateristic on turn, acceleration, and brake, but do VERY little on the boat-like feeling. It's mostly the wheels size (bigger rim yield lower profile, less tirewall flex), spring and shock that directly, and significatly, affect this Buick symptom. They also dictate how your car will brake and turn too. The very basic law of physic apply here: the less stiff the spring is, the more it bounce. That's why shop test your shock/spring by simply pressing on the car.


Yep, a stock non-AMG W211/220 does ride like an old Cadi.

Go figure.

 

I haven't seen a lot of kits out that attempt to change the handling characteristics of an Airmatic equipped car. Non-Airmatic cars are no doubt an easy fix, as Harris was recently selling some stuff that would improve the handling aspects.

Besides lowering with a lowering module, and possibly replacing the steering ECU, the tire and wheel change should give you a little better handling. But, as has been mentioned, we are not changing any of the physical characterstics of the car, so we can not get that improvement that you and many others are looking for. I've always considered the S-03's to be a wonderful tire. They will probably wear quick though. I got the Mich Pilot Sport A/S's put on, and was not that impressed with them. And as has been discussed before, the difference between the different Airmatic modes is not that dramatic on an 04. I've heard that it was much more pronounced on the 03's.

I just yesterday drove a X5 3.0 for the Ultimate Drive event here in Wayne, NJ. Besides the lack of power, I also noticed that the car did drive very well, with a nice suspension considering the size of the car, and the fact that it is a SUV. Tighter, and was certainly better than the ML loaner that I drove to the event.