Hi

I have a 2005 e320 CDI that about a month ago would not start
History:
Friday evening: added 2*5 gallon cans of diesel fuel from a questionable station
Saturday morning: Hard to start, 10 sec or so of cranking before it ran. Once started, no issues, ran just fine. until next day
Sunday: did not run the car all day till evening, again hard to start, but started after about 5-10 sec of cranking. Went to few stores without any issues, cam home parked the car.
Monday: Crank no start...killed battery cranking. After few seconds of cranking is started sounding like few of the cylinders were firing, but as soon as you stop cranking it dies

Troubleshooting: Checked fuel filter, no issues, had a steady flow on all offices. Connected scanner; no codes, checked fuel pressure while cranking via computer, and was getting around 38k (psi i believe). Checked engine for fuel leaks, none found.
Figured added fuel might have been bad. Opened fuel tank, drained all fuel, and put in 5 gallons of fresh diesel from my normal station, no improvement. Since I was not getting any more codes,and didnt have time to mess with components, i took the car to a shop that specializes in German cars.... first diagnosis; bad HP pump, purchased new one from AutohauseAZ, and got a lemon. They worked with me to replace the unit, and a few days later, another HP pump arrived, this time its generating pressure (not sure what pressure, but shop said it was enough), yet no start. they are now talking about common rail and all 6 injectors to be replaced......thats alot of money to troubleshoot in the dark. any feedback on additional trouble shooting would be greatly appreciated. I am thinking that we should check pressure coming from common rail to each injector....does HF sell any kits that can be used for this purpose?


Thanks in advanace.

 

Did the fuel you drain out of the tank smell of gasoline? Theres also possible water contamination in that fuel which would result in similar symptoms. Replacing all the injectors seems like they're just throwing shlt at the wall to see what sticks. I would get a second opinion. Water or gasoline contamination could damage the injectors and HPFP. These common rail diesels have amazing power and fuel economy but when they break they do so in very expensive ways. Good luck

 

The diesel I retrieved, while, very very mild, had a some gasoline odor....extremely faint, at least for my now. I did not see any water deposits, as I would expect to see it as droplets (none observed). would gasoline damage HP Pump, Common Rail and injectors? And if so, how does gasoline do this?


TIA

 

From what I've read (no direct experience here) common rail is very intolerant of gasoline contamination. The way gasoline burns it will damage the tips of the injectors as well as the seals inside. I think it really depends on the % of gasoline in the diesel fuel.

 

So its been some time, since I got to work on this as I was away.. but will start troubleshooting again today. I know I'm getting good pressure to the injectors, as I get a good reading on my scanner which would indicate good pressure to the injectors. So far the only code I am finding is a p0087, which pops up as the battery gets too weak to crank. Any guidance in terms of additional idea's to troubleshoot would be really welcomed. Could the timing chain be an issue? what kind of symptoms would I have seen from a timing chain getting stretched out? This died on me in two days thus i am hesitant about a timing chain as the issue.

 

Do you have a 2nd key-fob to try? Does glow-plug controller light (coil spring) come on briefly in instrument cluster when 1st cold key-fob cranked to position 2? Crank position sensor is known to cause crank no start but that usually only happens once engine is warmed up & been running previously. I'm not sure which scanner you're using but I know icarsoft mbII won't read glow plug faults or I should say, it will find a code but is not able to identify what code it has found & also live data won't show injector correction values or will show them all with a value of 0 which never changes regardless of engine's RPMs. A Star diagnostic pc scanner w/ mux is really kinda needed for proper diesel diagnosis of MB injectors & glow plugs imho. All functions including glow-plug controller & injector quantity correction live data can be tested & verified. It might be necessary to purge fuel tank, fuel filter, & all low/high pressure fuel & return lines if contaminated fuel is suspected, especially if car has been sitting awhile. Main battery voltage drops below 11.7v will set pseudo-codes & can certainly cause starting issues as well. A new set of injectors or changing timing chain aren't likely to fix issues & if not done properly could potentially introduce more variables to identify & troubleshoot.

 

I'm using a Launch Creader 9081 scanner, which does read codes for glow plugs and much more. to answer the questions:

1) yes, have a a 2nd fob, tried it as well, no success.
2) glow plug indicator works as expected, and if I disconnect a connector to a glow plug, an error code is thrown, same with crank position sensor. ( its over 80 degrees here, so glow plugs should be optional at this point and engine should start even if plugs are not working working)
3) fuel lines and tank have been purged, fuel filter replaced. Fresh 5 gallons of diesel added.
4) Constantly charge the battery so when starting to crank im above 12 volts...code only shows up when battery drops below 12 volt, which is to be expected.

so , could the crank position sensor be bad and not throw a code? yet throw a code when disconnected?
would a bad ecm cause a malfunction in reading the vehicle with odbII?
anyway to test the injectors are actually working without a star diagnostic computer?

Thanks

 

Sounds like you are diligently focused & using correct logic to remove variables. 2nd key-fob producing identical results eliminates EIS/EZS drive authorization circuit failures which will cause crank/no start w/o setting any DTCs. The failure is detected by observing live data of EIS control unit during crank/start sequence in DAS. Glow plug indicator light is part of a 'normal' crank/start sequence regardless of ambient temperature so if not present at least for a second or two during cold engine crank/start, that can be considered suspicious. Once engine is warm, glow plug light appearance in instrument cluster doesn't necessarily happen because as noted, often not required & ECM's logic in programming concurs. One or maybe more glow-plugs being bad should not prevent engine from starting (but will turn on CEL in IC) in warmer climates but if glow plug controller isn't working & all 6 gp's are failing to intialize & glow on a high-mileage less than factory spec compression diesel engine, this could result in crank/no start when cold. CrankPositionSensor could be losing it's ability to keep a steady telemetry feedback to ECM so signal intermittently drops out & ECM prevents engine from starting due to intermittent interruptions in signal telemetry. The failure is caused by repeated heat cycles but usually only causes crank/no start when engine is warm. CPS may set a DTC from intermittent signal loss, will definitely set a different DTC if not detected from being disconnected but ideally signal telemetry is best observed with scanner capable of live data streaming w/ engine running. It would appear CReader 9081 is a fine unit but I suspect doesn't offer specific component testing to level needed when troubleshooting om648's electronics as DAS does when it comes to live data telemetry observation capabilities in specific control units. Signs of a bad ECM will be issues like A/C suction fan by radiator coming on full blast as soon as key is moved to position 2 & not shutting off even if AC is off. BTW, best to turn devices like AC & radio off anyway when cranking to eliminate extra battery loads that steal away from starter's cold cranking amp needs. A bad CGW (central gateway) control unit or unplugged CGW will cause OBDII port failures across entire CAN-B & CAN-C networks. An unplugged CGW can spoof ECM into turning suction fan on full blast like ECM failure will but unplugged CGW alone will not prevent car from starting & running. The injectors electronic functionality & efficiency must be tested using a dealer-level diagnostic scan tool (DAS/Xentry) but their mechanical function can be tested by doing a leak back test. This requires clear fuel hose that is same diameter as return lines on top of each injector be substituted for return lines, then while cranking engine observe which injector is returning more fuel than others. It's best way to check for a suspected failing injector imho & better than DAS telemetry but much more time consuming & can create a mess. If fuel starvation from lack of fuel pressure is suspected in any way, make sure to verify fuel is priming system from low pressure pump in tank when key is turned to position 2. I typically hear a gurgley sound that lasts about same length of time as glow plug light on in IC when cranking & key moved to position 2. It's pressure should build to around 70-80 PSI, sufficient to deliver fuel to high pressure pump that will increase & maintain fuel pressure to around 350 bar along entire high pressure fuel rail & injector supply lines when engine is running. 350 bar is pressure typically observed at idle but can increase to as much as 1600 bar when engine is being pushed to max. There are sensors on both ends of fuel rail & on high pressure pump that can report false values to ECM & cause crank/no start w/o setting DTCs. Long story short, complexity that is om648's ignition system requires dealer-level scan-tool capable of isolating & running specific tests on various components. These computer controlled cars are like X-Wing fighters in their electronic sophistication so a swiss-army knife level scan-tool like stealership uses can be your R2-D2 when things go nonlinear.

 

Lots of great info, thank you very much. Some additional info. Had the car in an indie shop, specializing in German cars....their diesel mechanic was/is out on medical, and they were short handed. Their initial diagnosis was the HP Pump. Swapped out pump with a refurb from Autohousaz, and pressure was supposedly back to normal. They also had the same car in the shop for another issue, and they swapped the fuel rails, and mine tested fine on the other car....as its started right up. They gave up after that as they said nothing was coming up on their scanner and they didnt want to waste my money with unqualified mechanics...so $1500 later the car is as was before I towed it to the shop. Using my scanner, i checked the pressure, and to close to 60kpa. the glow plug indicator is working as expected, comes on for a few seconds on and goes of after initial warm up. The scanner I use is able to read bad glow plugs, and if I disconnect one, I get a code.,.. I do have the leak off tester, and will try to set it up this evening, but with the engine not running, not sure how accurate that test will be. Any idea how many bad injectors would cause the engine not to fire? I know I ran it on 5 without an issue....it wasn't balanced, but ran. I also do not have any other symptoms in terms of fan turning on etc, rest of the electronics work as expected during the start up sequence. While I 100% agree with you about the DAS, besides the dealer, I dont have too many options of shops with the equipment needed to diagnose.

Thanks Again

 

So I have performed a leak off test and found that two of the injectors were returning lots more fuel than the rest. I have swapped them out with two spare injectors, but was not getting any fuel back out of any of the injectors. While the ignition was on, i was getting fuel back from the bleed off lines that were now terminated in a gallon jug. bleeding the common rail, and fuel of the injectors seem to have improved the situation with the fuel return a bit, but not to where I was expecting it. Tomorrow, i will get a fuel pressure tester from HB, and test the low side, just to be 100% sure I am getting the correct pressure to the HP Pump. In regards to the common rail, are there any valves inside the common rail that would prevent proper pressure flow to the injectors?

TIA

 

The low pressure fuel (fuel being pumped from tank via electric pump) should be right around 100 psi at idle. At WOT mine will bounce around and go as low as 70 psi for split seconds. Although, my car has large injectors, other supporting mods and a custom tune.

 

So did some additional testing last night;
1) Installed a pressure gauge on the low side of fuel line at filter and got about 60psi, and rose to about 70 psi when cranking
2) watching my scanner, my common rail was reading about 55,000 kpa of pressure, which seems way too low based on your previous comments, but its the same pressure I would observe when the car was running. now here is the kicker,
when i started cranking, the car started, but instead of getting exhaust out the exhaust pipe, it all came out through my air filter. I shut off the ignition, but the engine still ran for a few seconds,, brand new air filter is now filled with soot.
so now I am questioning the following:
a) are the injectors delivering fuel?
b) did something happen to the timing chain which would explain why its not starting and potentially why i got exhaust out the air filter and no codes.
c) the shop that was working on it, swapped out the HP Pump as there was no pressure on the rail......whats the chances of HP pump and Timing chain going at the same time?
I will pull the valve cover sometime in the next day or two, just to see whats going on with the chain and vales and to hopefully rule out any mechanical parts....

any other thoughts in terms of troubleshooting would be welcomed as I am running out of ideas

 

worked on the car over the weekend and performed the following without much success of starting the car:

1) removed valve cover to ensure timing was correct. Its off by a few degrees (2-3 degrees)
2) although did not see any codes, replaces the crank position sensor as I was seeing the rpm fluctuating way too much when cranking. The rpm measure is now fairly steady but still no luck in starting the car.
3) got my hands on a used CR pressure sensor and pressure release valve....but of which could be suspect. swapped those out and did not see any improvement, if anything, the pressure decreased on the CR. I understand the pressure release valve can be adjusted by turning it , but I did not see much difference.... I need a way to test the High pressure coming out of the HP pump to see what the pump is actually doing... the HP Pump and sensors on that pump were replaced as well by the shop,,,,,but guess I will need to test those.

any help or ideas here are greatly welcomed.

TIA

 

I had a no start condition after replacing my injectors where the car ran ok for 10 minutes and on the test drive the engine faltered. I did not suspect the injectors since it was running ok initially. I was not getting enough rail pressure to fire the injectors. After much research and trial and error troubleshooting the fuel delivery system (much like you), I had a second look at the injectors and found this simple tool to isolate each injector. You install it on the rail starting at injector #1 and try to start the vehicle. If the engine starts and runs, you probably have an issue with that injector failing and sending too much fuel into the cyclinder and preventing adequate pressure on the rail. If not, proceed to the next injector and so on. I found my problem on the #3. I put in a old injector and it was back up an running. I found a fair bit of info on the Sprinter forums since there are not as many 05-06 CDIs on the road. Hope this helps.

https://www.accuratediesel.com/store...ool-/-Cap.html

 

did you check the linkage from the intake manifold to the servo? Its about 5“ long, viewed by looking down through about the center of the manifold. The servo itself is serviced from under the vehicle. The linkage rod has a ball and socket connection at the servo motor and stupidly attaches upside down so when the socket wears out the linkages rod falls away from the ball. When that happens the swirl flaps inside the intake manifold close and makes starting extremely difficult, if your Lucky enough and it does start, idle will be rough and with higher than normal RPMs, there it no MIL code thrown, possibly a EGR code may how up. I wired mine open for now with a piece of aircraft safety wire which very ductile, used for securing special AN bolts and nuts. European manifolds for the 648 do not incorporate those flaps apparently. I did not disconnect the wiring plug to to servo. I wonder if your HP pump was really bad, I hope you got to keep the old pump, a proper scanner can read the rail pressure.

 

Update:

After ripping half of the car apart, and taking the car to three different shops, here is what actually got the car runing:

1) all new injectors, seems that at least one was staying open
2) fuel tank fuel pump.

Car is running fine, but still have some issue:

1) fuel mileage is weak, average about 22mpg, and about 32 on highway
2) still see white smoke at start up....smoke shows up 2 seconds or so after start up....once load applied smoke stops. ( possibly bad swirl flaps or egr valve...no codes)
3) seems to be somewhat underpowered.
4) Radio does not work.....all fuses are good. Will start a separate thread on that.

Any thoughts on the other issues?

Thanks

 

I once observed similar white smoke & MPG issues after single injector replacement by stealership. Actual values of 'smooth engine running' telemetry in DAS indicated correction values way out of spec on replaced injector, both at idle & while accelerating so I pulled replaced injector to find lazy tech had left original seal (copper crush washer) in bore & simply stacked a 2nd one on top of it. Removed both copper seals, cleaned up mating surfaces in bore, replaced one seal w/ new & pitched other one & of course new injector clamp stretch bolt replaced as well. Torqued all to spec, cranked, started & no more smoke, MPGs & telemetry much improved. Now that your engine is running at least (congrats BTW), a scan tool capable of more than pulling codes is needed to observe Actual value telemetry of various high-pressure fuel rail components, including injectors. Swirl valve, EGR, & turbo actuator linkages should also be inspected of course to eliminate suspicion & there are 'Actual values' telemetry & diagnostic tests for these components also in DAS. In my case, same lazy stealership that replaced injector had also not bothered to program new injector's unique ID# into ECM which in all honesty didn't seem to change much if anything once corrected but it's principle of the matter here (for me anyway) that stealerships are not quite golden standard their prices for service/parts would tend to suggest but that's a rant for another time. Sadly, indies aren't much better when it comes to these very unique & increasingly rare specimens so owners of these vehicles must resort to become their own best advocate & acquire their own dealer-level diagnostic computer scanners to have onboard w/ them AT ALL TIMES in order to keep them running down the road reliably & efficiently. That has been my experience at least after logging approx. 100k miles on mine. I had hoped to squeeze another 300k miles out of it but w/ price of diesel these days & reports of increasing scarcity, not sure what future will bring.

 

I concur that the dealership should be the gold standard with all of their fancy tools, etc.; however, are often not that great. I think I could do their job but I am sure I would go broke as time is critical and you just cannot take half a day to properly change the oil. Maybe I could survive at a Bugatti dealership.

Still, with their electronic resources they may still be the most capable out there. Even if they accidentally leave a second copper washer down inside the engine.

Peter