SBC finally feel normal after a bleed!
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From: Ohio
ML-350, Maserati Quattroporte
SBC finally feel normal after a bleed!
Over the past year there has been a recurrent debate about the subjective feel of our 211 brakes. Some love them, some don't. I was in the "hate them camp" because they were unresponsive and bouncy. I got my car back yesterday after the software update AND A " DRAIN IN HYDRAULIC FLUID". I cannot believe the incredible change! This was what I hated about my 03' and now it feels like it should. What bums me out is that I had to drive like this for a year and I have taken the car in with that complaint at least two times before. I wonder if any one else has had this experience. It's also interesting that I had the car in for scheduled service C and when I again complained about the feel of my brakes, the service guy told me that the bleeding of the brakes would correct the problem. Did they know about this all along? I also wonder if they knew it was a problem with early build 03's since I notice not everyone out there is getting a bleed with the software update.
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was '03 E320 - now - '04 S4
Excellent post. The brake "feel" in my car is one of the worst things about it. I'm just living with it now because it's more than likely that I'll simply turn the car back in when the lease runs out (March)
Did they do any software upgrades that affect the brakes or can you attribute this directly to the bleeding of the brakes?
Thanks in advance.
Did they do any software upgrades that affect the brakes or can you attribute this directly to the bleeding of the brakes?
Thanks in advance.
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From: Longmont, CO
04 E320 4 Matic, 95 Audi S6, 99 Carrera 4 Cabrio, 12 Fiat 500 Sport, 00 BMW R1200C 10, BMW R1200R
Originally Posted by lig
Excellent post. The brake "feel" in my car is one of the worst things about it. I'm just living with it now because it's more than likely that I'll simply turn the car back in when the lease runs out (March)
Did they do any software upgrades that affect the brakes or can you attribute this directly to the bleeding of the brakes?
Thanks in advance.
Did they do any software upgrades that affect the brakes or can you attribute this directly to the bleeding of the brakes?
Thanks in advance.
I DON'T KNOW if the 03s that get the brake fluid change turn out to work more like the 2004/05 211s, but there was definitely a difference that I could tell right away. My 2004 (made in March of 04) has ok brake pedal feel, I don't even think about them when I get in the car anymore. You also have to consider that I constantly switch between driving an Audi 4000 Quattro from 1986 and this W211. The pedal on the SBC (although different) is not that different from my Audi's pedal feel.
If you hate the 2003’s brake pedal feel, try the 2004 and the 05 brakes. I think that there is a difference.
Steve
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was '03 E320 - now - '04 S4
Steve -
The only '04 W211 I've driven was an E55. I was so busy with the *other* pedal that I didn't pay much attention to the brake pedal.
Will definitely try a newer model and see how it feels.
The only '04 W211 I've driven was an E55. I was so busy with the *other* pedal that I didn't pay much attention to the brake pedal.
Will definitely try a newer model and see how it feels.
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From: Longmont, CO
04 E320 4 Matic, 95 Audi S6, 99 Carrera 4 Cabrio, 12 Fiat 500 Sport, 00 BMW R1200C 10, BMW R1200R
Originally Posted by lig
Steve -
The only '04 W211 I've driven was an E55. I was so busy with the *other* pedal that I didn't pay much attention to the brake pedal.
Will definitely try a newer model and see how it feels.
The only '04 W211 I've driven was an E55. I was so busy with the *other* pedal that I didn't pay much attention to the brake pedal.
Will definitely try a newer model and see how it feels.
All you E55 owners, I bet your brakes feel great or at least normal, right?
Steve
As you might notice, I hold AMG cars in a high place.
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From: Ohio
ML-350, Maserati Quattroporte
Originally Posted by lig
Excellent post. The brake "feel" in my car is one of the worst things about it. I'm just living with it now because it's more than likely that I'll simply turn the car back in when the lease runs out (March)
Did they do any software upgrades that affect the brakes or can you attribute this directly to the bleeding of the brakes?
Thanks in advance.
Did they do any software upgrades that affect the brakes or can you attribute this directly to the bleeding of the brakes?
Thanks in advance.
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From: McLean, VA
S4
Originally Posted by jprescott
As I can tell from multiple posts on this forum, the recall was to upgrade the software to trigger service after a certain amount of brake use. Apparently taxies with high use report brake problems. Again, this is what is reported by members. If this is true, than my fix should only be from bleeding the brakes. The service rep I use is more knowledgable than most( I'm on my 3rd MB) and told me my problem of brake noise and feel would be cured by bleeding. I can tell you to run to the dealer and have this done since you have the same problem I did. You will fall back in love with your car. It makes a dramatic difference. Good luck.
did they charge you to "bleed" your brakes? I don't think the software upgrade would have an affect either, it was probably the bleeding that did it? I have a feeling a lot of people should do this if it really made that big a difference. I did notice that some of the other e classes I test drove had brakes that felt much better the one I ended up with
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From: Longmont, CO
04 E320 4 Matic, 95 Audi S6, 99 Carrera 4 Cabrio, 12 Fiat 500 Sport, 00 BMW R1200C 10, BMW R1200R
Why would bleading make such a huge difference???
I am also agreeing about the software update not being the reason why the brakes feel funny. But this begs a question:
Why would brake fluid be so different in 2003s? It must be that in 04 and newer cars they are putting a different kind (synthetic maybe?? I have no idea). I know that when I personally bleed the brakes on my other cars, the pedal gets firmer due to the absence of air bubbles and other things. But why would a brand new car's characteristics change so much by just changing the fluid. If it is due to bubbles being gone, then what will stop it from getting bad again once the fluid absorbs moisture after a year or two?
I am a teacher and have most all of my education in business and languages. But I have some (if not a lot) mechanical common sense. Something must be up here and it could be as simple as not only bleeding the system, but also replacing the fluid with another kind of fluid.
Anyone get where I am coming from? We might be smelling a rat here
.
Steve Aguirre
Why would brake fluid be so different in 2003s? It must be that in 04 and newer cars they are putting a different kind (synthetic maybe?? I have no idea). I know that when I personally bleed the brakes on my other cars, the pedal gets firmer due to the absence of air bubbles and other things. But why would a brand new car's characteristics change so much by just changing the fluid. If it is due to bubbles being gone, then what will stop it from getting bad again once the fluid absorbs moisture after a year or two?
I am a teacher and have most all of my education in business and languages. But I have some (if not a lot) mechanical common sense. Something must be up here and it could be as simple as not only bleeding the system, but also replacing the fluid with another kind of fluid.
Anyone get where I am coming from? We might be smelling a rat here
.Steve Aguirre
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From: Valley of the Sun, Arizona
2011 E550, 2013 GLK
I have a March 2004 build E320. I hate the brakes. They're OK at highway speeds but they are grabby at slow speeds and at very slow speeds you can feel and hear the brakes thump.
Since my car is outside the Vin number range for a brake fluid change, I've been scouting around to see if there isn't some other TSB that would help cure this problem.
I haven't taken my car in for the Recall on the brakes because it's just a CYA move by Mercedes and I've got better things to do than waste a day driving through heavy traffic to get to the dealer.
If I can come up with some concrete fix that I can make the dealer implement, then I'll take it in.
I know everyone here loves their W211's but I don't. I don't like the brakes, the transmission and the drive-by-wire throttle. If I had it to do over again, I would not buy the E-Class nor can I think of any car that I would want now that they've screwed up the BMW 5-Series.
Since my car is outside the Vin number range for a brake fluid change, I've been scouting around to see if there isn't some other TSB that would help cure this problem.
I haven't taken my car in for the Recall on the brakes because it's just a CYA move by Mercedes and I've got better things to do than waste a day driving through heavy traffic to get to the dealer.
If I can come up with some concrete fix that I can make the dealer implement, then I'll take it in.
I know everyone here loves their W211's but I don't. I don't like the brakes, the transmission and the drive-by-wire throttle. If I had it to do over again, I would not buy the E-Class nor can I think of any car that I would want now that they've screwed up the BMW 5-Series.
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From: Ohio
ML-350, Maserati Quattroporte
Originally Posted by SAguirre
I am also agreeing about the software update not being the reason why the brakes feel funny. But this begs a question:
Why would brake fluid be so different in 2003s? It must be that in 04 and newer cars they are putting a different kind (synthetic maybe?? I have no idea). I know that when I personally bleed the brakes on my other cars, the pedal gets firmer due to the absence of air bubbles and other things. But why would a brand new car's characteristics change so much by just changing the fluid. If it is due to bubbles being gone, then what will stop it from getting bad again once the fluid absorbs moisture after a year or two?
I am a teacher and have most all of my education in business and languages. But I have some (if not a lot) mechanical common sense. Something must be up here and it could be as simple as not only bleeding the system, but also replacing the fluid with another kind of fluid.
Anyone get where I am coming from? We might be smelling a rat here .
Steve Aguirre
Why would brake fluid be so different in 2003s? It must be that in 04 and newer cars they are putting a different kind (synthetic maybe?? I have no idea). I know that when I personally bleed the brakes on my other cars, the pedal gets firmer due to the absence of air bubbles and other things. But why would a brand new car's characteristics change so much by just changing the fluid. If it is due to bubbles being gone, then what will stop it from getting bad again once the fluid absorbs moisture after a year or two?
I am a teacher and have most all of my education in business and languages. But I have some (if not a lot) mechanical common sense. Something must be up here and it could be as simple as not only bleeding the system, but also replacing the fluid with another kind of fluid.
Anyone get where I am coming from? We might be smelling a rat here
.Steve Aguirre
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From: Longmont, CO
04 E320 4 Matic, 95 Audi S6, 99 Carrera 4 Cabrio, 12 Fiat 500 Sport, 00 BMW R1200C 10, BMW R1200R
Originally Posted by jprescott
To answer the question of price, no I did not get charged. If you search the forums over the past few weeks under "SBC recall" you will see other people have also been bled. As to your rat comment, I am a Radiation Oncologist and although my education has been more science and medicine oriented I am in a high tech physics field so yes I get where you are coming from, but I can only tell you my brakes feel and perform different. You can see from my other posts that I am not a troll ( if that's where you are coming from).
I meant that MB might be saying that they are changing break fluid but they are changing other stuff too. Since you see where I am coming from about the other stuff I will not clarify further.I totally believe that your brakes are better, I am just thinking that there must be more to this that just brake fluid (that is where the rat comes in
)Hope you did not get offended too much!
Steve
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was '03 E320 - now - '04 S4
I use ATE Super Blue brake fluid in my other car (for track/auto-x stuff)
No real difference in the pedal feel after changing fluids - I'm fairly certain that there must be something other than just the fluid changing the feel.
BudC - I feel the same way as you do. This car is overengineered IMO in the controls department. It seems like it tries to think for you instead of doing your bidding.
No real difference in the pedal feel after changing fluids - I'm fairly certain that there must be something other than just the fluid changing the feel.
BudC - I feel the same way as you do. This car is overengineered IMO in the controls department. It seems like it tries to think for you instead of doing your bidding.
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From: Ohio
ML-350, Maserati Quattroporte
Sorry Steve. I'm just use to some abuse around these boards. Paranoid. No offense taken. You are probably correct about MB. I'm wondering why they blew me off in the past and now fix me up without question. Also interesting that sometime ago I know there were rumors that MB would ditch SBC totally.Too many problems and too expensive. Any one remember that? What happened that SBC is now back in? Maybe it is a cheap fix to the problem that brought it back to life.
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From: Longmont, CO
04 E320 4 Matic, 95 Audi S6, 99 Carrera 4 Cabrio, 12 Fiat 500 Sport, 00 BMW R1200C 10, BMW R1200R
Originally Posted by jprescott
Sorry Steve. I'm just use to some abuse around these boards. Paranoid. No offense taken. You are probably correct about MB. I'm wondering why they blew me off in the past and now fix me up without question. Also interesting that sometime ago I know there were rumors that MB would ditch SBC totally.Too many problems and too expensive. Any one remember that? What happened that SBC is now back in? Maybe it is a cheap fix to the problem that brought it back to life.
Steve
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From: Hertfordshire, UK
ML 320 CDI
I've read somewhere that the U.S. market had a different feel to the brakes than the euro version. I can't remember where I read it but it stated that due to U.S. style driving a softer feel was adopted. I'll hunt round the offfice tomorrow for the info and see if I can post it here.
It could be the software upgrade just enhances the pedal feel
It could be the software upgrade just enhances the pedal feel
Member
Joined: Nov 2002
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From: California
2003 E320
Originally Posted by jprescott
Over the past year there has been a recurrent debate about the subjective feel of our 211 brakes. Some love them, some don't. I was in the "hate them camp" because they were unresponsive and bouncy. I got my car back yesterday after the software update AND A " DRAIN IN HYDRAULIC FLUID". I cannot believe the incredible change! This was what I hated about my 03' and now it feels like it should. What bums me out is that I had to drive like this for a year and I have taken the car in with that complaint at least two times before. I wonder if any one else has had this experience. It's also interesting that I had the car in for scheduled service C and when I again complained about the feel of my brakes, the service guy told me that the bleeding of the brakes would correct the problem. Did they know about this all along? I also wonder if they knew it was a problem with early build 03's since I notice not everyone out there is getting a bleed with the software update.
Last edited by CaptMike; Dec 2, 2004 at 08:12 PM.
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ML-350, Maserati Quattroporte
Originally Posted by CaptMike
I agree with you 100%. I was in the "hate" catagory also, and after the SBC campain they are much, much better...not quite to the point of the smothe "limosine" stop that the 2003 broshure decribes....my wifes 2003 BMW 325i does that.....but much better than that when it was NEW.
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From: THE NAPA VALLEY, CA
Build date 2-04 E500
Originally Posted by BudC
Since my car is outside the Vin number range for a brake fluid change, I've been scouting around to see if there isn't some other TSB that would help cure this problem.
Our cars were built one month apart (mine earlier) and my braking system has always been flawless in operation, I find them to be easily the best braking system I've had in any car hands down.... I'm sorry you feel differently and have had negitive expieriences. Personally I can't believe a simple bleeding has anything to do with the controversy discussed here about the system, but who knows.... My brakes feel exactly the same as they did before the brake bleeding. If the system feels better after the bleeding then so be it.... I'd give it a try, you have nothing to lose but a few hours of your time.
Oh, B.T.W.... The fix did seem to quiet things up a little more, but not completely.
Last edited by HELL ONA HARLEY; Dec 2, 2004 at 09:01 PM.
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From: THE NAPA VALLEY, CA
Build date 2-04 E500
Originally Posted by SAguirre
The only thing that I knew about the SBC issues was that thread that said "It looks like SBC is here to stay" (or something like that). Otherwise I did not know that there was the rumor about it being discontinued.
Steve
Steve
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From: Valley of the Sun, Arizona
2011 E550, 2013 GLK
Originally Posted by HELL ONA HARLEY
Here's what you do my friend.... During my last "C" service visit (last fri) I had the recall done on my braking system as well..... and like you my vin dictated just a down load and not a bleed. I mentioned that there was an update (or fix) for excesive SBC pump noise (I learned about it here) and they agreed. Although I heard the noise occasionaly, it wasn't obtrusive or bothersome but I decided to get the fix anyway. They installed a valve (damper) on the brake line just off the aluminum block / master cylinder. This was done free of charge. Heres the good news for you, they must replace the fliud and bleed the brake system to do the valve installation. So all you need to do is complain about excesive noise from the SBC pump and you'll get the valve, free brake fluid and bleeding.
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From: THE NAPA VALLEY, CA
Build date 2-04 E500
Originally Posted by BudC
I had intended to ask for the Pulsation Damper fix (TSB P-B-42.46/27A). I also plan to complain about the thumping at slow speeds. I understand there are two parts to the Damper fix. The damper itself and a change to brake line(s). I don't know if changing just the damper gets you a bleed in the process.
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From: Longmont, CO
04 E320 4 Matic, 95 Audi S6, 99 Carrera 4 Cabrio, 12 Fiat 500 Sport, 00 BMW R1200C 10, BMW R1200R
Originally Posted by BudC
I had intended to ask for the Pulsation Damper fix (TSB P-B-42.46/27A). I also plan to complain about the thumping at slow speeds. I understand there are two parts to the Damper fix. The damper itself and a change to brake line(s). I don't know if changing just the damper gets you a bleed in the process.
I was very impressed with the difference in just changing the pulsation damper. Maybe I will have the lines changed later to get a free brake flush out of it, but I have free service anyway so I rather they leave the original lines in. Plus, the service manager said that changing the lines was not making that much of a difference.
Just FYI,
Steve
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From: THE NAPA VALLEY, CA
Build date 2-04 E500
Originally Posted by SAguirre
I just had the pulsation damper changed. I had this done about one week after I bought the car. I thought that the noise coming from the SBC was terrible and unacceptable! I specifically told them no to touch the fluid. I had not done business with this dealer before (since they are new) and I did not want them messing with the fluid on a new car.
I was very impressed with the difference in just changing the pulsation damper. Maybe I will have the lines changed later to get a free brake flush out of it, but I have free service anyway so I rather they leave the original lines in. Plus, the service manager said that changing the lines was not making that much of a difference.
Just FYI,
Steve
I was very impressed with the difference in just changing the pulsation damper. Maybe I will have the lines changed later to get a free brake flush out of it, but I have free service anyway so I rather they leave the original lines in. Plus, the service manager said that changing the lines was not making that much of a difference.
Just FYI,
Steve
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From: Longmont, CO
04 E320 4 Matic, 95 Audi S6, 99 Carrera 4 Cabrio, 12 Fiat 500 Sport, 00 BMW R1200C 10, BMW R1200R
Originally Posted by HELL ONA HARLEY
Funny..... My car never had a damper and was never changed... this was added.... Its a valve that is added to the larger line (about 1/2" dia) coming from the aluminum block were all the metal lines are tied together.... My wrench said once the line is opened adding oil and a bleeding is a must.
Wait, I just found the Star Bulletin. It looks like there is fluid in it, so I guess they still changed my brake fluid, but Nothing in this whole procedure says that the fluid even has to be checked! So I am not sure what they did. I did not have the steel lines changed though.
O well, here is the bulletin:
Steve
I know the quality sucks, but if someone really want to read this try enlarging it. Otherwise I might post it on a site and link it.
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ML-350, Maserati Quattroporte
Originally Posted by HELL ONA HARLEY
Here's what you do my friend.... During my last "C" service visit (last fri) I had the recall done on my braking system as well..... and like you my vin dictated just a down load and not a bleed. I mentioned that there was an update (or fix) for excesive SBC pump noise (I learned about it here) and they agreed. Although I heard the noise occasionaly, it wasn't obtrusive or bothersome but I decided to get the fix anyway. They installed a valve (damper) on the brake line just off the aluminum block / master cylinder. This was done free of charge. Heres the good news for you, they must replace the fliud and bleed the brake system to do the valve installation. So all you need to do is complain about excesive noise from the SBC pump and you'll get the valve, free brake fluid and bleeding.
Our cars were built one month apart (mine earlier) and my braking system has always been flawless in operation, I find them to be easily the best braking system I've had in any car hands down.... I'm sorry you feel differently and have had negitive expieriences. Personally I can't believe a simple bleeding has anything to do with the controversy discussed here about the system, but who knows.... My brakes feel exactly the same as they did before the brake bleeding. If the system feels better after the bleeding then so be it.... I'd give it a try, you have nothing to lose but a few hours of your time.
Oh, B.T.W.... The fix did seem to quiet things up a little more, but not completely.
Our cars were built one month apart (mine earlier) and my braking system has always been flawless in operation, I find them to be easily the best braking system I've had in any car hands down.... I'm sorry you feel differently and have had negitive expieriences. Personally I can't believe a simple bleeding has anything to do with the controversy discussed here about the system, but who knows.... My brakes feel exactly the same as they did before the brake bleeding. If the system feels better after the bleeding then so be it.... I'd give it a try, you have nothing to lose but a few hours of your time.
Oh, B.T.W.... The fix did seem to quiet things up a little more, but not completely.
