JWS3

I recently came across some figures indicating MB's US sales for the past year are down somewhat significantly. The E class figured prominently in the decline, while BMW's 5 series did well. I cannot fathom this as the new 5 is shocking ugly, especially on the inside and is burdened with the now infamous iDrive disaster.
Any thoughts/opinions?

SAguirre

My guess is that since most Mercedes Benz buyers are well educated about what they are buying they are aware of the new models coming out and are postponing their purchase.

E320 buyers are waiting for the E350 and ML buyers are waiting for the new redesigned model to arrive. If I were in the market for a new Mercedes now I would probably wait.

That is my theory,

Steve

jhh

See the other post from Nevanda Jack:

https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w211/96944-mercedes-sales-down-20-2-jan-05-a.html

MB's 2004 annual sales were up over 2003. The news you saw relates to January 2005 monthly sales figures vs. the same month last year. Overall, January 2005 sales are down a bit more than 20% from January 2004 monthly sales. My guess is that the incentive program late in 2004, plus dealerships' natural pressure to get sales in before the EOM, EOY, etc., had the effect of moving January & February 2005 sales (i.e., people that were taking their time to buy a car) into December 2004. Overall annual sales trends probably won't be affected much.

steph280

I am one of those who snatched up a E320 in January (this last week). On top the $2500 incentive, dealer was anxious to get rid of all the E class, so there were room for negotiation on top of that. The deal was just too good to pass up. Based on the activity we were seeing at the dealer, I am suprised the sales figures are actually down.

No matter how much we love our Benz, they are just not as well made as they were. My last C class was a total lemon, problems everywhere. Repair costs were at least 5 times of what my extended warranty has costed me. On the other hand, my wife's BMW 3 series had ZERO problems though the 8 years we owned it. This type of quality issue is pretty well known by now, and the sales figure may be a reflection of public awareness of quality level between brands.

I am keeping my finger crossed on this new E. Still shopping around for that extended warranty.

rusnakmb

Where did you get the info from? Or just you think MB sales were down compare with past few years??

Actually the MB sales have gone up in past few years. Maybe Jan 05 sales were down, only because of the Dec 04' has taken the customers volumn and the special promotion on Dec 04.

I really like to know where you get the figures that indicate MB sales were down somewhat significantly.

lorinserbenz

I have some friends who deal with with professional athletes and their buying habits no longer lean towards MB as much as they used to. It was nothing in years past to see these guys selling an S and a CL to one guy at time every other week. Now most of the vehicles tend to be big SUVs, Bentley GT's, and 7 series BMW's. These guys want the ability to put big wheels on there cars like they see on tv and they want a vehicle that is BIG (SUV craze).
Personally I think MB is way out of touch with their customer base. The CLS is a perfect example, the car does not fit in the lineup all it does is conflict with the E500 and S430 price wise.
I know MB doesnt like following trends but look at what Cadillac did. They took a line that was almost DEAD and now have surpassed MB as the third ranked luxury automaker. Not to shabby IMHO...
Having owned a Escalade I can vouch for them being crappy vehicles and I think that in the next few years MB will get back some of the customers they lost to Cadalliac etc...
Also Acura, Infiniti, and Lexus have cars that offer MORE features than MB at cheaper prices.
Having seen what Chrysler has been able to overcome I think it is only a matter of time before MB gets their act togetheer and is back on top..... I HOPE..

Barry45RPM

The reason people are still buying MB's even though there are lots of little problems with the electronics & they are overpriced when compared to other luxury brands is because MB still has that "air of rareness, or exclusivity" (partially because owners are spending more than they have to to get all the bells & whistles, performance & luxury that they want). As soon as that undefineable "air of exclusivity", which is largely a Heratige thing right now, evaporates, people will simply purchase the better Luxury car & better value at the time. For those who say "...yeah, but the Japanese Luxury car won't still be around 8 years after it is purchased, and the MB will", I submit to you that fully 80% of MB's sold in the USA are LEASED for 3 or 4 years, and then the owner is on to his next new car. he doesen't care if the car he turns in is around 4-5 years after he turns it in, so that point is moot.

As for the comparison that an MB & a Jag/Lexus/Infinity don't ride like an MB, neither does a BMW, people will choose the ride they like & buy accordingly. When the Japanese market reserchers determine thet former MB owners would buy a Lexus if it rode/handled like an MB, they will make it so. Right now, they are doing quite well in sales moving from zero cars 15 years ago to where they are, nipping away at MB's heels.

The quality problems at MB really started when MB moved from building rather plain, vault like cars, to todays techno-gee whiz cars loaded with everything. The Japanese got the gee whiz electronic stuff right, BEFORE the gee-whiz gizmos were made available in the already mechanically PERFECTED cars. The Germans did the best they could with the time they had available to rush the cars out to compete against the innovative new crop of Luxury/near Luxury cars which unexpectedly "raised the bar" on Mercedes. People wanted Gee Whiz all of a sudden, and MB wasn't ready. MB WAS right out there, ON TIME with the beautifull redesign of the E Class in 2003, but too much of the Gee- Whiz stuff was half baked. Instead of delaying the introduction of the car, it was decided it was "good enough" and pushed out the door, where it earned its badge of dishonor, of being cranky, quirky and lacking in quality, and in the case of its electronics, POOR design AND excecution... If any word had defined MB it had been "Quality", and now IT was in question!

If they are smart, they will outsource more of the electronics, to the people who do these things best, no matter where in the world they are, and not let false pride force them to try to keep everything in the "Motherland", realize that they are building cars, not the space shuttle, stay with tried & true copper wire- not fiber optics in a car, even though it yields no discernable improvement to the driver, and it is delicate & tough to work with. If Lexus redesigns the LS 430, and it looks as good as the E Class does now, AND everything inside it works flawlessly, MB will be in SERIOUS trouble. The ball is in MB's court... I wish I could go to MBUSA & be involved in a research/discussion group... ask Cadillac if playing "catch up" isnt humiliating and difficult, if not impossible.

"Good Enough" seldom is.

Brav

Amen

alewifebp

Barry, you hit the nail right on the head. Lexus, BMW and MB have always juggled for the top spot in sales over the last few years. Add in to the mix now that a company that was an also ran, Infiniti, now applying much pressure on the lower end bread and butter vehicles of MB (such as the C, and of course the 3 from BMW), and soon to other parts. It all adds up to a very competetive market.

One thing that wasn't mentioned as a possible cause was the dropping of free maintenance for the 2005 model year. Combined with the ML, C, and S now getting a little old. Things will change with the release of the new ML and S, though.

Interesting that you mentioned the rappers/sports people. I think in some cases that the tastes of those people have just become more expensive. Bentley's, RR's, Maserati, Ferrari, Lambo and the Maybach. It used to be a rapper was just fine getting an S or CL.

Brav

I think the rappers / athletes still buy the same cars. they still hand lambos and ferraris, etc in the 80s and 90s..

Trust me, people like that, if they can barely afford it, they will buy it.

sacguy

http://myfilelocker.comcast.net/fdme...roup_Sales.pdf

DWP

Very interesting numbers. The YTD (full-year) numbers for December show that E-Class sales were up 31% in '03 (the first full year of the W211) over '02, and were up another 6% in '04. Meanwhile, 5-Series sales were down 4% in '04 (the first full year of the new 5-Series) compared to '03. The market seems to be voting with its wallets on the comparative merits of the new E-Class and 5-Series.

MKW

From today's edition of autoextremist.com :

"The Mercedes-Benz Image (or what's left of it). Now that DaimlerChrysler has announced that U.S. Chrysler Group employees and up to six family members are eligible to buy or lease a Mercedes-Benz vehicle at 12.25 percent below sticker price in 2005, watch the Mercedes-Benz image take another huge hit. The move will negatively impact resale, and even more important, it will ****-off Mercedes retail buyers who will be reminded (painfully) once again that the vaunted M-B resale performance is nothing but a distant memory. It's amazing to us the litany of mistakes and blunders perpetrated on this once hallowed brand by its executives over the last several years. The suicidal move down market in order to become more "approachable," the recent infatuation with absurdly complicated electronic systems, which led to abysmally low quality scores causing frustrated owners to walk away from the brand for good, the pathetically weak and rudderless advertising, and now, discount marketing. We've said it before, and we'll say it again, no one has done less with more than the bumbling executives at Mercedes-Benz. They have managed to squander the legacy of a once-proud brand, one that gleefully operated above the fray with its impeccable engineering reputation and bulletproof image, and turned it into just another car company flailing about for a clue in a market with little sympathy for mediocrity and indecision. A classic example of how not to do it if there ever was one. And just for the record, Mercedes-Benz sales were down 20.2 percent in the U.S. in January - over the same period the year before."

elchinocache

no free maintenance anymore, i think that hasnt helped

ruykava

i think its purely a matter of image. yup, someone mentioned his/her 8 year old BMW works perfectly. so does my 12 year old mercedes. yet my personal friend's 5-series has just got its iDrive whacked out, sunroofs opening and closing randomly, and pieces of seal falling off the door. at highway speeds. and my uncle's lexus (toyota Crown, to be more accurate) has just stopped working -- suspension failure, the car leans toward one side and is almost uncontrollable. and his LX470's air suspension has stopped working too. so to those who say mercedes has lousier quality than other luxury brands, i have to say i'm sorry, that's not true. i've had no trouble with my 03 E except for a very slight rattle from the aircon that began to develop after my cousin crashed it into a pedestrian walkway.

so the thing is, there is nothing inherently wrong with mercedes' reliability. they had a bad stretch in the mid-90s while everyone was still building simpler cars. but now that luxury cars are all complex, merc is no less reliable than any other brand. what remains is only the market's PERCEPTION that they are complicated and unreliable. heck, everyone thinks Audi is built like a vault. that's bull****. they've endless electrical troubles despite the good build quality. that said, mercedes, which is getting back on their feet, is pricing their products high again -- i think that is a mistake. it's time to wipe the competitor's clean by proving that great things can be done within budget. then again, they might actually be gunning for exclusivity -- as the article from autoextremist mentioned, having everyone buy a mercedes is NOT a good thing. having profits go up IS.

farooq

well they are sure rocketing here too.. MB doesnt car if sales is falling in one region while increasing in other.. their overall cash flow is not affected much

lpolo

That's so true. I was in Asia last Christmas. Checked out some auto magazines there and BMW 5-series is nominated as the best luxury car... didn't rember who's the 2nd, but E-Class W211 is the third. They said that 5 series has more aggressive, younger/newer, and sportier looks. the hell with interior..

I myself have same thoughts. The more you look the weirdo style of the 5 series, the more you used to it, and now it looks a lot better than before. Indeed, I found that the style is great (except the interior that I cannot accept until now).

To make MB better, they have to lower the car a bit... I found that BMW has a great job on the ride height. They narrow the gap betwen tires and body.. so the car looks very sporty and younger. On the other hand, MB car has a big gap and looks more oldies.

Share your thoughts here.

ruykava

interesting, iPolo, cuz the last time i checked (Aug '04 i think) Singapore's Torque named the E-class as the best exec, beating the 5 and the S-type (which is probably what got second in the review you meant -- if not, then probably the A6). primary reason is the ride and the interior.

the more i look at the 5 the cheaper it looks -- like some boy-racer trying to be grown up (just my own opinion of course :p)

but the more i see the E, the more i love it -- then again, that may be because i own one myself it jz seems more exclusive, solid, and mature (which is NOT the same as looking old)

but this is gona be a big year for Merc -- new M, new S, new A, introduction of R and B classes ,and who knows what else they've got up their sleeves. lets see if sales will go up again as the reviews start coming in =)

JWS3

I got the info primarily from the roadfly board- BMW sales figures were posted as were MB numbers. See below for a direct link:


http://bimmer.roadfly.org/bmw/forums/e60/6203022-1.html

Messerchmidt

MB and BMWs are nice if you trade th car every 1-3 years, if you keep them longer, you have to get a Lexus or Accura or Infiniti OR ELSE repairs will kill you.

The Lexus LS430 and the new Accura 3.5RL whip the S/E500s and E320s in price and performance. The Accura RL is as big as an E500 inside, AWD, and costs a lot less and is reliable! Same with the Lexus LS430. (just not AWD)

only time MB seems to be worth it now a days is 2nd hand because after 2 years the car is worth udner half of what it is new.

rjm

"I recently came across some figures indicating MB's US sales for the past year are down somewhat significantly. The E class figured prominently in the decline, while BMW's 5 series did well. I cannot fathom this as the new 5 is shocking ugly, especially on the inside and is burdened with the now infamous iDrive disaster.
Any thoughts/opinions?"

The answer is QUALITY! I own both, and I'll buy another BMW before I'll buy another Mercedes. Mercedes quality has declined steadily since their "merger" with Chrysler. BMW quality is excellent. I'm on my 2nd one and they have both been great cars. My 2001 E-430 has been a good car with few problems, but the newer models seem to be steadily declining in quality. Sure wish they would get their act together

ruykava

erm, given that you own what is widely acknowledged as the most unreliable batch of mercedes (as far as i know, the '98-'01 batch), and yet have no problems with it, i wonder how low quality really is =)

and oh, jap cars have high servicing costs too, i should know after having a Toyota Crown and Land Cruiser Amazon in my immediate family. and how many given a choice would really buy one over a Merc? even setting the lack of design imagination aside, they offer nothing innovative, unlike Mercs. and don't forget Merc's 30 year warranty (at least in the UK) now THAT'S what i call a car you can keep for a long, long time.

rjm

ruykava wrote:
"erm, given that you own what is widely acknowledged as the most unreliable batch of mercedes (as far as i know, the '98-'01 batch), and yet have no problems with it, i wonder how low quality really is =)"

If you think the '98-'01 models are among the "most unreliable batch of Mercedes" you have apparently not been keeping up with the Mercedes forums over the last few years. If you will do a search on quality, I think you will find that quality has deteriorated radically over the past 3 years.
RJC has just posted an article on this forum detailing why MB sales are declining so drastically.......the primary reason.......DECLINING QUALITY.

1SICKLEX

Well quality is one of the reasons. Benz might have the most beautiful product line, but under that, lies a world of hurt potentially. And before, Benz could hush people and keep the skeletons in the closet, but with intense competiton and more media press, they can't do it anymore. Simply put just 10 years ago, it was really Benz, BMW, Lexus. Today, Caddy, Acura, Infiniti, Audi, Jag, Lincoln etc have all woken up, some more than others.
Then you have price, which is astronomical compared to the Japanese. The 2006 Lexus GS starts at 42k, the new E350 will start at 50k. All around the lineup, its the same, the cars are substantially more. Adding options can raise the price 20k!!
The Benz lineup is pretty much all new or at least fresh and they have tons of options and ranges in the lineup. Yet sales are declining?

IMO, the CLS was not needed, hold the R and B class, just quit a second with all the products. Fix home. Get that quality back up, lower the price (for those that remember, the last gen S-class had a freshning in 96 I think with a 8-5k lower price and it helped sales).
Who WOULDN'T buy a Benz if they had top quality?

ruykava

i'm not sure if you're talking about the WSJ vehicle, rjm, but that was regarding reduced profits -- perhaps you could post a link to rjc's article, please? with regards to profits, the main reason is Smart, which lost millions of euros; and the weak US dollar, which dented profits there, and the upcoming launch of the S-class, M-class and R-class.

i still believe the primary reason is image -- mercs are very subtle, beautiful cars which tend not to catch people's eyes. as i have said in these forums before, BMWs are NOT more reliable than MB (friend's 5-series had door seals dropping off, sunroofs opening by itself, and iDrive locking up) -- there are always lemons here and there. although Toyota might be better in quality terms, they are not foolproof either. and i say this from personal experience.

with regards to MB sales, well, contrary to the shock some people are implying, they fell 6%, compared to January 2004. (http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/dccom...-0-0-0,00.html). sales increased 23% in belgium, 5% in spain, and 11% in the netherlands. most of the decline occured in germany -- an 18% drop. sales INCREASED, as a whole, 19% in 2004. (http://www.daimlerchrysler.com/dccom...-0-0-0,00.html).

meanwhile, in one month, over 2,300 CLS have been sold -- it's not whether a car is needed, it's whether people want it =) otherwise we would all be driving around in old Minis and Beatles

but i agree that mercedes car prices are too high, at least in the UK. strangely, though, in Singapore mercedes prices are generally slightly LOWER than BMW. personally though i'd always fork out that little extra for that "intelligent" feeling that every mercedes gives me. it's a lesson in how technology should be applied. of course, that's IMHO =)