Enthusiast1

My comments weren't directed at any one person nor meant to incite an argument. I'm entitled to my opinion as well, and just reading the boards gave me a sense that people were displeased with the new design to the point that they relentlessly insisted that the model they possessed was far superior. It was said in a rather "school boy" manner as well, and no more maturely than rolling of the eyes either I might add.

Despite that, I meant no disrespect, merely stating my opinion as so many others here do freely as well.

MBNUT1

The most sincere way to express your appreciation for the new design is to buy one.

capp325

Styling and design are obviously very subjective things. Whenever a new model comes out, some people like it and others don't. If the Internet existed back in 1908, it would've likely been flooded with posts from people complaining that the newly released Model T felt "cheap" compared to their horse-drawn buggies.

Having said that, I find it difficult to imagine how anyone driving the previous generation E-class could be disappointed with, well, pretty much anything! (and let's not even talk about the guy driving a Chevy Malibu! LOL). The W211 is by far the least interesting E-Class ever....the ultimate blandmobile. I mean, you know you've got a problem with styling when it makes Buick look aggressive in comparison.

The W212 may not be a "beautiful" car, but it's a major improvement on the model that it replaces. At least E-class looks like a German luxury car again. It's about time Mercedes started moving away from the boooring designs of the disastrous Daimler-Chrysler era.

220S

Welcome to MBWorld. Glad you took the time to introduce yourself.

Nice first post.

aeggroup

What's wrong if the guy drives Chevy Malibu ????

petee1997

220S give your head a shake. We're talking about cars and you take it personally. Time to lighten up.

K-A

Oh man, the arguments are just getting more and more mature. Good to know more intelligent posters are expressing their arguments, haha. I guess since what we drive should dictate how powerful of a voice we should have in your braggart and childish world, then really? An X5? C'mon now.

Very true.

I dunno, I do disagree with you on the cohesiveness of the W211, I think it's as cohesive and harmonic as it gets personally. The W212 does have its strong points, but what it sacrifices IMO is cohesion and harmony. I'm curious to know if you can give any actual and specific areas in the design of the car where it might seem non-cohesive, or amateur? I can for the W212.

Ahh, I see, well that's where we differ on interior. I see interior quality as an actual tangible "quality", i.e plusher and nicer materials, a cozier sense, classier and more elegant shapes and designs, a more pleasant and "luxurious" feeling, many of which do come from nicer, softer, or more quality feeling materials. Which IMO the W211 has over the W212 by a little bit. Tech is simply tech, it doesn't cross over in refinement, or luxury to me too much.

Hardwood floors and hard plastic areas are far different. What I'm saying is I can point out quite a few areas where the 212 uses harder, and seemingly "cheaper" materials. Some people like what's new just because they're supposed to and it makes them feel "progressive" and good about themselves, but the few areas of "art" that I'm into, cars included, I look into from an objective and self-thinking matter as much as I can. So I look into all the nooks and crannies to make my overall judgement.

What looks more pleasing is also subjective, I like the 212's interior, but the 211's more sweeping, flowing, and cascading look to me looks both more elegant, and even "sporty" than the 212's as well.

BTW, the 212 is more aggressive, but it has a very square and conservative look, I personally don't see it grabbing the younger gen more-so than the 211 did, and you saying "finally grabbing" shows that you might not have taken into consideration that the 211 was part of M-B's design language (rounder, curvier cars) which got them a much higher popularity amongst younger buyers.

I will say, I see rarely have seen any 212's around here in L.A, the 211 was I think M-B's best selling E ever (you can't go a block without seeing 10), so I'm wondering how its selling. The numbers M-B posted in its first month Sales (I think around 4-5K units), were very close to what the W211 sold during the same month last year I believe, in it's 6th year on the market.... Although it was a good jump over what the 211 Sold the month before, which it better be as new models always sell the best in their first months.

K-A

I think his point is to keep it on the car talk tip.

Seems a lot of people who are trying to defend the new model can't think of any more reasons rather than "you guys driving your poo-y old cars are just mad because what you drive is oolllld".

Some of us can actually think for ourselves (this is not directed at you BTW as I don't know your views), and don't like what's new only because we're supposed to, and because it makes us feel better and more important about ourselves. Instead we judge based on how we in our confident opinions feel. Not saying there isn't any reason to like a 212 more at all, but a lot of people just jump on "new is good/old is bad" just because they don't know any better.

zaxxon

Well said!

geoaero

Yeah, the upcoming 5 series looks a lot better, at least in the pictures. It's funny how the 3 series can look so good, and the sister car look so unrelated...

capp325

Nothing wrong with driving a Malibu. However, when you spend so much time lambasting a car you clearly can't afford (and let's face it, someone who can afford a new E-Class and is a car enthusiast would not be driving a Malibu...), that really tells you something. I personally happen to think that Ferrari 612 is not a particularly attractive car (for a Ferrari anyway) but you're not gonna find me on a Ferrari message board writing countless posts on that subject. I mean, why bother?

I discovered this forum a couple of days ago while researching a prospective new purchase and I've already seen like 20 posts where K-A is expressing his displeasure with the new design. I think everyone here already gets it that he doesn't like w212's styling. So who exactly is he trying to convince, other than himself perhaps?

K-A

Oh man, what a class act. I forgot, when did I show you my Bank Statements?

Clearly you're not a true car enthusiast, so you don't get the concept of discussing cars, and using your logic, while being obviously the type of person who uses cars as "status symbols" more-so than anything else, you driving an X5 puts you lower on the totem pole than me with my E-Class, the Malibu is just extra icing on the cake. Therefore you Sir, are not worthy of lambasting my car!

I don't need to sit here and tell you what I can and can't afford, but I buy what I like, and what works for me in terms of what I need it for, and I usually pay in cash, so I don't have $1K a month payments like some people

I've said it many times before, if I liked the 212 more than the 211, I'd have one in my garage, I'm a big enough car nut that if I needed to have one, I'd throw all depreciation, loss in trade, etc. to the curb, simply to fulfill my enjoyment.

220S

I'm light. You missed the point. Read again.

Talk about cars but don't direct it towards someone being a fool because they prefer A over B, or what they may currently drive. Stick to the subject of the debate. Be mature.

e.g., I prefer the 993 over the 997 but underneath it all I really lust over wanting to own a 997?? That's all just schoolboy talk and you know it. If I really wanted a 997 I'll go buy one. If I wanted a W212 E63 I'd go buy one. Simple.

Let's discuss cars and not act like 15 year olds. Nobody is jealous of what other people own or like. That's absurd. But we have our preferences in life and that's what makes us individuals. So keep it on track and quit with the adolescent crap about defining other people's self-worth by what they might drive or their design sensibilities.

People tend to only act that way to make themselves feel better about their own potentially uncertain choices in life. And we all know that, it's part of human nature.

gaazmon

Till this day, I love the 98 or 99 S500 sedan. I had a 94 S420 and that was the car that made me fall in love with MBs. My friends still talk about that car and how great it was inside.

Point being, when I crashed my 94 S420 back in Feb 06, I didn't replace it with a W220 S because I really didn't like it. Out of all the model MBs in my price range, I bought the E (CL500 was top choice, but we already have one). I never would've thought of buying a W210 or W124 and wouldn't replace it with a W212 either.

For those of us that don't think newer is better, we have our favorite designs that we will always love. The 06 BMW 330Ci, 99 MB S500, 01 BMW 740i, these are all cars that when I still see on the road I say "I'd drive that in a heartbeat."

EDIT: How could I forget in my list, the 03 CL500.

K-A

I dare anyone to say they see the new Acura TL as a nicer car than the old one. Even the most Corporate run, non-thinking for themselves, perfect "newer is better always, no matter what" customers, IMO just can't simply justify it with that one. Tech wise and engineering wise, newer usually does mean better of course, design is far more subjective. People's own insecurities are what make them the "I'm better than you because I have something newer/better" types.

I'm all for someone car jabbering passionately, but when you resort to the lame argument that someone doesn't like something because they have the "old version", or drive a car you don't like, makes you lose automatically.

When I had my W220 I had no problem saying I wanted a W221, lol.

aeggroup

I, for sure, can afford W212 and I said many times " This car is ugly "
What's wrong with that ? BTW, new X5 is ugly too ....
If you don't like or like the car - you are free to talk about it, but don't talk about people that you don't know. Just follow simple rules of ANY forum...

P.S. By the way - Chevy Malibu is very nice looking car....

Enthusiast1

First of all, what you drive certainly doesn't preclude you from being a car enthusiast, or Mercedes enthusiast for that matter. Several colleagues of mine use Jettas, Corollas, and Malibus as their daily drivers and have Porsches, Mercedes, Jags, and BMW's in their garage. They just don't want their nice car beat up at work.

I don't necessarily like a new model over the outgoing simply because it's new. I love old the old Porsche 993. I actually prefer the last generation 5-series as I hate the soft lines of the current one. I can go on and on.

Debating whether a car is better looking, more luxurious, cohesive, or more classy is PURELY subjective. How we categorize these things is shaped by our previous likes and dislikes, and therefore biased. What can be objectified is sportiness and overall driveability as these things can be measured in slalom times, decibel readings, etc. We can all rant tirelessly on pointing out things that are harmonious and cohesive or not because our views our subjective, and if our opinion is already in one camp we're likely biased. Furthermore, I can point out the the new, harder plastics (which are seemingly cheap looking, as we already have biased expectations about what expensive plastic should look like) are in fact more durable and costlier to make, which in my mind makes that more luxurious in so much that it will last longer. But in the end, who cares? I like what I like, and you like what you like.

Comparing sales figures in this dismal recession compared to when the last E arrived is an unfair comparison, as the recession has taught us that the first few years of the new millenium had far to many 'fringe' buyers of luxury automobiles. Time will tell I suppose.

Overall, great stuff, and interesting to read.

Enthusiast1

Agree on the new TL, that is one ugly vehicle, but again, I'm sure some people love it.

K-A

I agree on most points. What I might see as more luxurious, etc. can be less so to you, and vice versa, etc.

Just to note though, exactly one year ago was when the recession really started to drop like a bomb, and New Car Sales were in the toilet, so the figures of the W211 in July of '08 was considerably down from what was in July of '07.

Agreed, the new TL really is a miss, I have seen rarely any on the roads, which is surprising as the older models were very popular.

Agreed, and cheers to that.

Agreed, the new Malibu really is a good looking car, and gets tons and tons of critical acclaim. The sheetmetal work and design really ring close to cars that cost tons more. I needed something to beat on so I can keep my E pretty, and that has a huge Warranty, and that I can put 600 Miles a week on if need be, without a fuss.

I think this pic shows how nice the car can look in some angles:

DCist

I will defend you in only one area - Chevy Malibu. Its design is one of the best American car designs this decade. And we all know where it came from...

Now, going back to what I was once referred to (maybe with a bit too much sarcasm) - tampon talk. Organic, lushy-plushy-coushy, curvatures, flow...etc. You get the idea.

The more I read your posts the more it seems to me you want to go with a Jag and you are looking for approvals.

I like new Jags, however, there is one thing TATA did not improve on so far - they did not make Jag feel coherent. Even their website is all messy and chinsy (inital art work and color schemes aside though). XJ is even more of an old man's car now. It looks very suburban, heavy...big. XF is more agile, but interior looks weird. It has the wibe of a Sunday MacMansion real estate informercial. Also, I don't like the grill - its buickish. The supercharged variant is a good ride I hear.

Your perception about W212 sales, and particularly sales to the younger crowd, is wrong. You will see why just couple of months into 2010. There will be a lot more deliveries in November of this month. You will see a big jump.

A lot of people sat out W211 because it was indeed a product of Daimler-Chrysler era as someone pointed out earlier. I don't want to call it boring, but it certainly did not ignite talks about its styling the same way W212 makes people talk. And let me tell you something that as a design oriented person you already know - people have a tendency to get used to things and even reverse their opinions 180degrees. Consumers go through stages much like stages of an emotional crisis. If roughly 50% of folks like the car then in 2 years time 75% of total respondents will say that they like the car. Then editors will elevate it to the rank of a bold, advanced, classic, etc. design. They will do it because most publications serve majority's interests.

But enough about marketing. One concrete thing that I wanted to say about W212's tail lights is this - they look amazing at night. There is a white 550 in my neighborhood and a black coupe (could not get if it was 550 or 350). Both display awesome lighting show after dark. Seriously, take a look if you can at some point.

DCist

LOL

There should be a sticky telling every new member of certain aspects of K-A' s posts in regards to the new W212.

It is so funny how every new member goes through the same now predictable response to K-A's criticism of the car. I am for one as guilty as charged. LOL

gaazmon

The new TL is nasty. The TSX is not bad and the facelifted RL doesn't speak to me either.

YES, Finally someone who agrees with me. All I hear is "oh, the new X5 is so nice." The f*ck are these people smoking??? The best X5 is the 06 X5 4.8L. That thing is sick.

03 540i is a sick car. Those 01 - 03 5 series were beautiful.

K-A

I do think the Jag XF is the nicest car in its class right now no question. We'll see with the next 5'er though.

The W212's tails do look cool all lit up at night, it's just too bad they didn't make them equally as nice when just sitting there, daytime, and lights off.

2 things usually happen when a car is polarizing, it settles in and becomes "normal" and easily digesteable for people, letting Sales fly and the design to be appreciated, or it gets tiresome to look at after a couple of years, and doesn't have much of a timeless value.

M-B's used to be clean, and great looking cars with no gimmicks, nothing that would inspire "controversy", and they pulled it off great. They're trying to go the BMW route now, which is pretty clear....

Either way, time will tell. Right now we can't say if the "younger" buyers will buy more of them or not, but what we do know is, the W211 sold immensely well, and brought in tons of new buyers who never liked M-B's older boxed up designs, so those who sat out the last 7 years didn't really ding it much.... Not to mention the '03-'04's horrid reliability didn't all that much either, which is a testament to the cars clean and gracefully aging/timeless design (along with brand cache of course). As well, the W211 and its generation/design language brought the average age of buyers down to the lowest levels in M-B's history. This should continue of course with the new cars, unless something horridly goes wrong.

You guys are free to "debate" me all you want, just keep the annoying 12 year old butthurt comments to yourself and defend "your car" without personal attacks toward someone.

BTW, by where the Malibu was from, I'm assuming you mean in reference to the fact that it uses the SAAB 9-3 platform yeah?

Also, here is an Article on E-Class Sales:

MBNUT1

Honestly if that is the case for the new W212 then to me it is more of a true Mercedes than one that had soft but not as durable plastics. Mercedes is supposed to be synonymous with built to last.

K-A

I know what you mean. I guess "Mercedes" has started to mean different things to different people.

I got into M-B big time when the W220 came out (it was always my favourite brand, or amongst them, but that's when I really fell in love), so to me M-B was really about the elegant styling, and pure and total class and refinement inside (although the 220 wasn't perfect in that regard at all really).

When I was very young my Dad had a Rolls Royce Silver Spirit, and a new "S-Class" Mercedes. I HATED the Benz, I felt it was just this austere, boring big car. I loved the Rolls as it was so fancy, and plush, yet obviously no comparison in terms of durability.

The soft and refined vibe in the 211 reminds me more-so of the Rolls, and the 212 more-so of the 126, with a bigger emphasis on durability.

My M-B isn't a daily driver, so durable materials aren't as big a deal as interior "class" to me personally.

BTW, an owner of a new W212 and W211 in another Thread said that the 212's materials feel a bit cheaper. I am pretty convinced there's no way the materials in the 212 cost more to make than the 211's, but only M-B knows the answer to that.... Our personal tastes will otherwise make the verdict.