220S

Looks like the W212 received the IIHS "top pick." But only for cars built after March 2010. Apparently Daimler added some door paneling changes after that date.

The Hyundai Genesis also got the "top pick."

http://wot.motortrend.com/6645400/au...cks/index.html

K-A

So did the Cheby Malibu!!

Finally the IIHS does the W212, thanks for posting, been checking there a lot to see if/when they'd do it.

Just like the C-Class, the thing is a tank, look at the Side Test, looks like nothing even touched the car, amazing. As well, just as I had assumed, the roof crush (considering how much UH steel was used throughout the car, and how current the car and steels available are) is one of the best out there, even better than the C-Class, which also posted impressive peak lb/force numbers.

Only safety aspect of the 212 that isn't great is how it handled the flat wall Test for the Gov Ratings, and how much flopping around the seats and interior/occupants did in it.

Also, I wonder just how much difference the extra padding on the post March builds made.

Ninjaryder

I know the review says after march 2010 build but I would like to know if anyone knows how to idenify exactly when since my car was built march 2010.

DerekACS

Since the review states "after March 2010", W212 production from 04/2010 should have the modifications to the door panels.

220S

Update:

IIHS just tested the BMW F10: Top safety pick.
So did NCAP: 5 stars.

So now the safety playing field is level. The W212 after April 2010 build and the F10 are both "top safety pick" cars.

edit: the Motor Trend article posted above is incorrect in saying after March 2010. It's after April 2010.

Good for the consumer that manufacturers are building safer cars. Most all modern cars are much safer now. The safety thing is no longer be a part of the competitive equation except for some brands that still have issues.

Unfortunately for Volvo it can't use those cards exclusively anymore.

Buick LaCrosse
2010-11 models

BMW 5 series
2011 models

Ford Taurus

Hyundai Genesis
built after January 2010

Lincoln MKS

Mercedes E class
built after April 2010

Toyota Avalon
2011 models

Volvo S80

DerekACS

However, if you look at the detailed results, comparing the F10 with W212,
the E Class has a stronger roof (withstands 20,000 lbs of pressure, vs 15,000 for F10) and a stronger side structure to resist side impacts (about 5 cm less deflection than the F10).

After comparing the photos of the side impact test, the E Class looks like it could be driven away, only requiring a new door panel. The F10 would clearly need a tow to a body repair shop.

220S

Yeah, I saw that. They list the specs of the pressure with all cars now.

What I'd like to know is how this all equates in the real world. That is, what's the pressure on a typical rollover given the weight of the vehicle? What's the pressure of an 18 wheeler rolling over on the roof of a car? In other words what do those figures actually mean for you and me out on the road (aside from speculation and assumption that higher pressure will save our life in the real world or in a freak accident of one in a million.)

In addition, did the MB have a pano or a regular sunroof? Would there be two different specs between those? Etc., etc.

Bottom line, is that we're safe in lots of good cars to choose from now. So safety ratings aren't the only reason to choose one car over another anymore. Sorry, Volvo.

p.s., about whether one car would need a tow or not. Remember that no accident is exactly alike. These are tests of a particular accident. The next test could provide slightly different results. Whether your car will get towed or be able to be driven away is kinda up for grabs.

K-A

Yeah, I was surprised about the F10's roof. Seems a "weak point" of the car, as it bends in the crash, and it has a pretty low ability to withstand force (in the roof crush Test). Comparatively speaking of course, still a very safe car.

Seems the W212 to me is still probably as safe as it gets, both real world (based on trust in M-B, and the W212 being their newest offering with emphasis on Safety), and in Tests, as it literally looks like a tank after the side impact, like it just needs a dent doctor, lol.

I do wonder how Pano would do, I wish M-B let us know the actual Safety differences.

220S

fwiw, here are the first pics of a real world roll over of the F10. It rolled several times. It's from a German forum. I don't know if there are any pics of W212 roll overs out there yet. Anyway, again the bottom line is that you are safer in most all modern cars these days. Pick a car that you truly prefer driving and want to live with. That's all that matters. And people will keep on dying in new MBs, BMWs, and Volvos, too.





K-A, you should go back and read some of your old posts about the W211 and the W212, esp the one about safety
Just a reminder of the phenomenon how one's reality changes so dramatically once one is no longer invested in what once was..

K-A

Waiit, no one thing I always said that was good about the W212 is Safety, being that the W212 is probably the safest car out there. That's why I used to always say I wished I'd loved its styling.

The only thing that I questioned about it was the NHTSA Frontal ratings, not because it got 4 Stars (all Benzes do), but the high load to certain areas, and the high seat movement.

However, I've definitely always considered the W212 to be trusted as "as safe as it gets", not to mention its use of the highest grade steels avail (M-B said they used steels that, weren't even available 2 years before it), and the fact that it uses a record amount of U.H.S.S (75% or something crazy, I believe).

About the door trim changes, I always wonder what that means, as the door trims are identical in look and feel. Also, it's very questionable as to why the dates "changed". When the IIHS first Tested the W212, the Website stated "Changes made after March 2010", and that was stated for a couple months or so. Then all of a sudden in July when I looked at its results, it changed to "After April 2010". Also, in the IIHS Video Test of the W212, the guy says "Changes made after March 2010". Also, I wonder if "after" means that they start during the following month (being May?).

Anyway, small beans, as I'm sure in real world protection, they're the same, as M-B engineered it like that in the first place. Gotta do what they gotta do to fulfill those perfect test scores.

220S

Yeah, I think maybe that NHTSA post was it (I came across it when looking to revive this thread.) And the "worse than the W211" is what I saw. Hehe, back when you had a W211

'Member when you were picking on the poor new kid on the block? Beating it up everyday after school? Now you're its biggest cheerleader.

No problem, it's all in jest.

But I personally still don't like the W212. Inside and out. And unless I get a lobotomy, it'll just have to be that way for me. And I'm not really a F10 fan, either. I did a big test drive and like the driving dynamics better than the W212. I like the interior better too, but not super happy on the exterior. Not that bad but not that great. Maybe wait to see the M5. Although if they fix up the loose ends on the W212 E63 and return to nicer interior parts, I might consider the W212 E63 wagon as an ultimate Euro style sleeper car.

Don't know what's out there that I'd really want right now. It's a tough one. The new CL is nice, imho. But big money. Nothing's perfect so far. Maybe drive the W211 E63 'till it croaks.

K-A

HEY YOU'RE JUST A JEALOUS W211 OWNER MAN, GO BACK TO THE MUSEUM WHERE YOUR W211 BELONGS, WAHHH!!

LOL.

Yeah, I guess even though I was being the one bullying the new kid.... I guess I had to make him earn his keep, then I felt bad, and took him in as my own.

Yeah, I hear you. Obviously I'm enjoying my new car. But there are those times (or angles I should say) when that "switch" flips back, and I see the car how I did before, and get questionable regarding my feelings.... then see it again in another element, and confirm that I love it now, etc. etc.

Yeah, F10 is nice, but the more I see it, the less I get that feeling that I might have made the wrong choice. Although, a nice equipped one is still super hot. I like them both for very different reasons.

CL is cool, but yeah that's a large chunk of change. I mean, I love the car, but I'm indifferent toward just how much.... Considering the cost. It's a little bland for some reason, even though it's got some interesting detailing. I think it's the "softest" reception to any CL yet.

Maybe an S65??

DerekACS

I wonder if the numb, non-communicative electric steering played a role in this crash ?

DerekACS

The F10 suffered another blow today - it's first recall by the NHTSA for a faulty fuel sensor. All F10s produced between Jan.12-July 1 are being recalled.
Apparently, the fuel sensor can become wedged in the tank, resulting in a false fuel reading of more fuel than actually in the tank. As a result, the F10 could unexpectedly runout of fuel without warning.

220S

Sheesh. Seriously come on. Are you not a car enthusiast? (for the record I have a BMW, an AMG, and a Porsche. If I lived where there was snow, maybe an Audi, too. All three are good for what they are. But none are perfect and each have shortcomings.) Brand bashing is silly, all good cars have their niche. And thankfully we all have choice due to the competition. Or should we all be driving one brand only?

I read that too. But what was the first "blow" if this was "another?"

petee1997

A fuel sensor is not a blow, it's a minor technicality and all new generation cars have some of those. I would be more concerned with the BMW fuel delivery system in their DI turbo engines. I had to replace two pumps on my wife's 335i. Porsche has issues with their DI engines also. Supposedly the problem may be caused by North American fuels that have ethanol.

DerekACS

Yes, I am very much a car enthusiast. Over the past 26 years, I have owned and driven a wide collection of MBs and BMWs, both gas and diesel. I greatly appreciate the exemplary handling, steering and performance (not to mention fuel economy, as well !) of my current 335d.

Since I will be in the market next year for a larger and more comfortable sedan (either W212 or F10) to replace my 335d, I decided to test drive the new 535i with Sport Package. I expected to be wowed by this car, but instead, I was very disappointed by not only the steering, but by how large the car felt to drive and its lack of agility (long wheelbase and wide turning circle).

Having test driven the 535i, I am convinced that BMW has endowed this car with a steering system that is flawed and needs to be re-designed. Car & Driver described the steering as "lifeless and non-communicative". This is what I would consider to be very bad press and it is therefore a blow to BMW's reputation for building excellent handling cars.

Yes, it may well be possible that such steering, in the hands of an overly confident driver, could contribute to loss of control, since there really is little feedback to the driver. The F10 535i is unlike any other car that I have driven: the electric steering is most certainly a huge departure from any 3 or 5 Series previously offered by BMW.

petee1997

220 have you seen the new SLS? I saw one two weeks ago at the MB factory store in Toronto. Quite impressive! I can't believe I'm actually thinking of flippling my 911 for that sucker.
First I must get over a couple of giant hurdles. Number one I have to take a long,long look at my birth certificate. Number two, is it worth a divorce or not. The odds are very long but the thought is amusing.

DerekACS

Yes, I accept your point, but anytime a manufacturer is forced to issue a safety recall by the NHTSA, it is a "blow" to its reputation. The faulty fuel sensor may be considered a "minor technicality" by some, but if a car runs out of gas without warning in a high traffic location (eg. middle of freeway), then the car's occupants are at risk. That's why the recall has been issued.

220S

So you are implying that BMW's new steering dynamics contributed to the accident because you weren't successful driving the car? And that Car and Driver agrees and therefore this is a big blow to BMW? And since you are so convinced everybody else in the world should be also

Very bad press? Well, then why are you bothering with a W212? Your pals at Car and Driver ranked it last in their recent comparison. Dead last. Oh, and what did they say about its steering and handling?
This: "There were other errors, too, chief among them the steering, which offered all of the deep and contemplative feeling of Dick Cheney at a bris. It felt numb, vague, and a little heavy at all speeds, supplying slim information."

And they didn't stop there: "In Ohio’s hills, the E350 insisted on being bent into corners with care and deliberation to avoid inducing a big initial moment of body roll. And if you remained heavy-handed, the stability control would smack you with a heavier hand, flashing warnings about five times per “Hocking Ring” lap. Terminal understeer was preceded by ever-increasing tire yowl, another warning that the Benz intended to mow down honeysuckle bushes."

Be careful, if you drive a W212 you may end up in a bunch of honeysuckle bushes. Just like that BMW driver whose car with its steering dynamics that caused him to run off the road and flip the car (although the fact that he was doing over 170kmh probably helped.)

In addition, in all of their other tests of the W212 they complain about the weak and distant steering and body roll and uninspiring handling.

Come on my friend, do you buy your cars by what Car and Driver says? Don't you trust yourself? Are you interested as an enthusiast or are you calling yourself a car enthusiast when you're really just a consumer of cars. Take one to the track and try driving more than 5/10s. Take it to the limit (and your limit) and go from there. The BMWCCA has DE and HPDE track events. So does the PCA and you can bring any car. You'll get some skills and its fun

fyi, all automotive magazines and websites have complained about the numb Mercedes steering for decades now. And this time around BMW has tried to develop the 5er as a comfortable cruising car competitive with Mercedes. When that happens, people will raise their eyebrows since BMW has always had the emphasis on being a sports sedan with tighter steering and a stiffer suspension. So it's all relative. Now that they softened the 5er up, it's going to be noticeable. They've kept the 3ers they way there are, but the 5ers are now in a new era for BMW. And we'll see what transpires with the M5.

p.s., you seem to have an agenda(?) Are you angry with BMW?

220S

Yeah, I'm nervous about DI, too. And the fuel around here is the worst. It's giving me second thoughts about a new 997.2. And will it happen to the new MB TT DI motors?

Another thing about the BMW is that in the V8 twin turbo they've put the snails in the valley and that's going to develop heat for certain. The intercoolers are massive.

Not yet. I moved up to the central coast of California (fresh air) and the dealer here hasn't delivered one yet. I need to run back down to LA and try to see (and hear) one. Petee, your birth certificate could be telling you it's now or never. Go for it! And once the wifey drives it, I'll bet you'll have a tough time getting her hands off the steering wheel. I have a feeling it will also retain its value over the years.

Look, all new car models have issues. Whether or not it reaches the recall level is determined by the NHTSA. In this case with BMW there were a run of cars with faulty sensors. A faulty fuel sensor means you could run out of gas, and yes, that can be a safety issue.

The degree of the issue of course is what matters. But, sure, people read "recall" and they get nervous. Of course it's not good publicity. All manufacturers hope that the NHTSA doesn't put any of their known issues to the point of recall, and they all fight it. And it has to affect a certain percentage of cars.

If the under body panels in the W212 were sagging or breaking to the point of any possible safety ramifications then it would have reached recall status, too. Luckily no panels have broken completely and fallen off. Service Campaign 2010030007 APR10; underbody panels may be loose or sag, dealers will replace the left & right panel fasteners. Approximately 24,100 vehicles are affected.

Here is the list of current W212 discovered issues: https://mbworld.org/forums/e-class-w...212-sedan.html

So, should I say that the W212 is a dismal failure? It already has over 18 problems discovered, some affecting all vehicles and some affecting a specific run of vehicles. No, of course it's not a failure or a potentially problematic car. Because these problems occur on all new models, regardless of manufacturer. There's nothing inherently wrong with the W212 despite the issues.

ash_cpe

220S, my car was built on July 2009, so what changed for cars made after April 2010?

Thank you.

K-A

Nobody really knows. IIHS is never clear about the "door trim" changes, as far as I can tell, physically speaking, the door panels are the same for all 212's.

DerekACS

Sir, I will not say anything to question your enthusiasm or presumably your wide experience in driving various fine automobiles. You have little idea of my experiences , so why do you describe me in such a derogatory fashion ?

As a "consumer of cars", I have passed both levels of BMW Driver Training.
Over the past fifty years of driving, I have had the pleasure of driving and testing many different makes, including Allard, Austin Healey, Triumph, Ferrari, Fiat Abarth, Alfa Romeo, BMW, Mercedes, Peugeot, Rolls-Royce, Honda, Nissan, Toyota, and Volvo. You see, I grew up in the auto business and was part of it for many years before retiring. I am not some mindless "consumer of cars".

Nor, as you suggest, do I have any agenda against BMW or any other manufacturer. I am quite simply interested in choosing in the near future a very good car that handles well and offers more passenger space and comfort than my current ride. I expected to be very impressed with the new F10, but came away very disappointed. I have yet to drive a W212, but after reading various reports, I must admit I am skeptical that the steering will satisfy me. However, the W212 may offer some superior attributes compared to the F10. A more robust body structure, greater comfort, more agility (for city driving) and rearward visibility are four that come to mind.

220S

Okay, now you sound more rational. Why not say that from the beginning instead of using edited information that suits your agenda (that you are disappointed with the F10.) You know, like a good journalist should do

Maybe just say that you're disappointed and talk about the specifics rather than tossing out selected knee jerk responses. That would be a worthwhile discussion, imho.

And why select out C/D's editorial about the F10's numb steering when they say the same about the W212? It's holding back data in hopes to solidify your own opinion.

When it's simply off-hand comments that don't take in the broader picture, then it appears suspect. We can all disagree in our assessments but let's try to put all the cards out on the table.

That F10 accident picture means nothing actually. It doesn't mean the steering is to blame (and nor does it mean the roof is strong.) It's simply the first pic I've seen of a damaged F10. And I asked if anyone had seen a pic of a damaged W212.

And all cars occasionally undergo recalls and many service bulletins. You know that. No reason to use it as ammo to bolster your personal disappointment in a product.

I guess let us at least attempt to discuss cars out there with an open mind and express both the pros and cons in an honest fashion. And look at all the data and info rather than being selective just to suit our own arguments. It's human nature to do so, I do it sometimes too. But in the end it doesn't allow for a truly informed dialogue, imho.

Cheers.

ps, I wasn't being derogatory but simply a wise-as* and trying to poke you to get out and push these cars and get out on the track. A bit tongue-in cheek, as they say. Nothing wrong with being a consumer of fine cars.