Tjdehya

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...ales-race.html

There is no other car I could consider driving right now and Lexus is definitely last on the list for me.

Dema

GS as direct competitor of E is due redesign next year. So Lexus has a chance to look better in next year September.

220S

fyi, if you want real detailed information on this, then buy a copy of this article: http://www.researchandmarkets.com/re...86&t=d&cat_id=

The gist is that Lexus suffered greatly from the "Toyota issue" and the latest GS 450 engine issues. Time will tell whether or not Mercedes and BMW can keep it up, but if reliability is up there for real in both the German marques, then it's very possible. Toyota's reliability reputation definitely got badly tarnished just like Mercedes reputation got hammered a decade ago.

K-A

Lexus/Toyota pulled a typical: I.e getting comfy with their squeaky clean reliability image, and left a gaping hole for M-B to capitalize on. Which it seems like they're doing.

This is a big get for M-B though, as Lexus has held that crown for some time now it seems. With the 212 being a hit in its first year, and a slew of new models coming up (and a facelifted C-Class next year), they could very well hold it.

Reliability wise, they'll never be perfect (can't expect that from a Luxury manufacturer these days, with all the forward thinking Tech, etc.), but I have confidence that that all in all, there won't be any major issues or horror stories coming from their cars for quite a while.

hyperion667

JUST GOT THE WORD, haha!
my car is built and will be here on schedule.........
I'm so hard up I'd fly that thing over......but that money would be better
spent on mods, LOL......

in regards to the article: MB just has it like that now I guess......and once people
start seeing them out there more, it will just snowball.......
I have always admired the lexus line, just never wanted one, when they were brand new (back while I was in high school) they did look very slick, but I suppose each car will always have it's market.......

K-A

To be fair, Lexus' whole line is tired, and it seems they launch their cars very close to each other.

Either way, I personally can't stand Lexus. Completely irrelevant car to me.

hyperion667

I plan on passing a lot of lexus once my car arrives.....

mg-E550

I've always thought of Lexus as a great car for people who really don't like to drive.

reckrab

I just came out of a 2008 GS350 AWD Lexus and I'm here to tell you they have a long way to go to compete with the E class. I liked the car okay but it's not in the same league as the E350.

Firestopper0383

ES350 Lexus rides and drives just like a Camry. A little nicer appointed with some extra gadgets but, still a Toyota.

hyperion667

LOL, couldn't agree more

El Cid

Came close to getting a Lexus LS 460, but the cost was so much more and dealership not nearly as good. Lexus guys just didn't seem to care about selling a $60,000 car to me.
On other hand,the MB guys were real interested and worked hard to get me a good price. Also liked the E's exterior and interior designs way more and it seemed to be just as well equipped for my needs.
E350 and LS are not in same class, but close enough for me. Was not interested in GS due to ride, reliability issues, etc. As for ES, it's a Camry.
Lexus has a far superior "ride" if that is what you are looking for. MB blends in a good ride with a little more road feel and feeling of performance in the E350.
For MB to hold onto lead, it will need to outsell the new BMW 5 series, while not losing sales to Infiniti M37 (Consumer Reports favorite car in the whole wide world).
IMO, reliability over a six year period and cost of maintenance will factor into this. Far as I can tell, maintenance costs for Lexus, MB and BMW are on a par. BMW is no cost for four years, but you actually just pay for it in the original purchase price. Nothing in life is free.
MB has taken some hard hits on reliability in past and that is what kept me away for long time.
As someone said earlier, the Toyota recall issues hit Lexus hard, but it has a great reputation that may help it recover. Also a lot of people in this class want that soft ride and the Lexus badge impresses a lot of people.
Personally I think one of MB's problems is that it offers too many different kinds of vehicles. This leads to higher development and manufacturing costs. Also probably factors into lowering reliability due to all the different components and less research and testing for them. Also makes it harder for dealerships to solve problems.

sunnySD

I believe taking out the MB Sprinter delivery van, Lexus is still ahead of MB? Marketing purposes, MB looks like it's going to outsell Lexus this year but I wonder what the numbers will be for my counting, where Sprinter isn't included in the numbers count?

kingofire

http://www.autoblog.com/2010/10/08/r..._lnk1%7C176470

gnma

One important issue is that the article states Lexus has held tight to the top spot for a DECADE. That itself testifies to customer loyalty, and satisfaction. MB who??? BMW who??? Pretty pathetic. One usually thinks of the top luxury cars as MB or BMW.

A decade is not a fluke and Lexus should be proud of outselling MB and BMW for an entire decade. Don't be surprised if they start outselling the competition starting next year for another decade.

Having said that - I love my E500 V8

ZedStyle

well put!
The title of the original article certainly did grab me, but looking at the numbers, year to date the difference is only a couple of thousand cars, which is a less than 2% difference... not like we are blowing them out of the water...



that was a good point sunnySD, i found the article below, if the numbers hold true then excluding the sprinter (which is a fair), we are still trailing slightly... and bmw is pretty much on us too!

http://www.business-standard.com/ind...arrows/409993/

Toyota, working to recover from record recalls, has sold 162,438 luxury cars and SUVs in the first nine months of this year, a 9.2 increase over last year, the Toyota City, Japan-based company said in a statement. The result maintained a narrowing lead for the brand that has led the segment since 2000.

Mercedes sales rose 18 per cent to 159,729 so far this year, while BMW deliveries are up 9.2 per cent to 157,464. These results don’t include sales of Mercedes’ Sprinter vans and Smart cars or BMW’s Mini brand.

K-A

I for one hope Lexus goes back to outselling M-B. I view M-B as a premium car maker that can cater to both enthusiasts, and go down the middle-road to please the commoners. Lexus to me, is all about the commoners, so it would make sense that it'll outsell.

I know Lexus owners who are afraid to get into a Benz, due to some of what they perceive is its "exotic engineering", which cost an arm and a leg to fix (hence why they went to Lexus).

I for one think that Lexus is the right brand to see on the road so much, it gets utterly tiring. Not to say that Benzes aren't everywhere, but MORE than Lexus'? That wouldn't be so fun.

220S

I kinda don't think they see it so much as exotic, but more like scared to death of the notoriously bad reliability of MBs especially during this past decade. If one wants a comfortable car but with a good reputation of reliability, then Lexus tends to be the marque those people gravitate towards. But sales have dropped with Lexus and it parallels the difficulties both the brand and Toyota in general have run up against in the last couple of years.

The so-called 'back to being built well' campaign by MB is still much too young to assess. We'll have to see how things develop by 2019 or so. I'm not holding my breath only because the nature of the automotive industry has changed dramatically especially with this new world economy. Cost savings, blending brands (ie, cross pollination with other companies), short term profits, and satisfying Wall Street and shareholders may make any sort of 'good old days' impossible. And I'm not saying this about MB only, but every auto manufacturer.

K-A

M-B's bad reliability has definitely cost them tons of customers to Lexus (and the lack of free maintenance has cost them lots of customers to BMW). I do think a lot of the *really* conservative Lexus folk do see M-B's as exotically built in the sense that exotics are notoriously expensive to maintain, and people want to drive them, but are scared, per-se. "Exotic" might not be the right word to use, as I'm not saying people see them as some rare hanger-queen like a Ferrari, but something that is pleasing to them and they wouldn't mind owning, but feel like it isn't such a safe bet.

My Mom is a perfect example: She owned a W211 when they first came out, she didn't buy it out or Lease another one due ONLY to the fact that BMW kept its free-maintenance going, and M-B dropped it. Not only that, but lots of her friends made the same move (M-B's reliability at the time had to do with this too). After her next car, a 5-Series' Lease was up, she didn't buy it because the residual was a rip-off, and she got a Lexus ES300, when I told her I could get her an equal year E350 ('07-ish) for the same price or even cheaper. She was too afraid to deal with M-B's costs to operate, and felt that she needed to stay more "conservative" (i.e, she saw the Benz in the same way I see a true exotic.... I want it, but I'm not ready to deal with it). Now she HATES her Lexus, and it depresses her, and she wishes she just went with the E.

I do feel confident in M-B's "new" reliability. It might not showstoppingly good, but considering what they've released after 2006, I think it's as good as a modern Luxo brand will get, with all the tech, and "new new new" stuff they keep putting on to lure in customers. Now, how these cars will fair in 10-15+ years is another story.... Cars aren't built to last anymore, due to the fact that they have SO much tech, I just don't see how anyone in their right mind will want to own an old one, and pay for the upkeep. Those who do, will probably have such horridly maintained examples, due to wanting to drive a decade+ old Luxury car, yet not having the money to properly do so. Tech eventually will fail or hiccup, and I wonder how all these "drivers assist" programs will last, and how safe they will be on the roads in old cars that aren't maintained properly.... And if they do fail, and the repercussions are dangerous, it could be a big lawsuit craze going on.

And like you said, I think the days of exclusive perfection are over, unless you go REALLY high up, and even then, you're not getting such exclusivity (RR Ghost has lots of 7-Series remnants, not to mention, is riding on top of one, for a healthy $300+K or whatever it costs). With all the parts sharing, etc. brands are all getting closer and closer to each other it seems.

Anyway, I still hope that Lexus remains the top auto seller in the Luxo division. But then again, I wish M-B went back to the 80's-90's when they only had bread & butter models, and weren't trying to be such a mass brand, so my visions might be a bit skewed here.

reckrab

Ouch! Big step down from an E or a 5 series IMHO.

K-A

I knooww.

I feel so bad for her. She says she hates it so much, and it makes her feel "old" and it has no style, only "old people" drive it, etc. etc. She said the BMW was a much sexier car, and the Lexus lacks that allure.

Things I knew all along, but now I have to be the one to convince her that the Lexus is a nice car, and better for her than the German options, so she doesn't feel so bad.

220S

I didn't mean "let's see by 2019" in context of how long an individual MB will remain on the road without issues, but "let's see" in respect to MBs new "we're back on the reliability wagon" campaign/emphasis.

We'll have to see if it's all for real or simply getting people to think it's real. And only time will tell. Yes, I realize that the JD Powers surveys, etc., have improved but we still have to wait and see what really transpires.

My SA (who is somewhat of a cynic) says nothing has changed. He tells me it's primarily a clever PR campaign of mind over matter and that he still sees so much warranty work going on with 2007-2011 models. That's not a comforting thought, but like I said, he's cynical.

Again, the auto industry has really changed lately (out of necessity.) I'm not too enamored by much out there these days. It seems like all brands are using cheaper materials and such. And their money probably comes more through finance then actual car profits. I just got a solicitation from MB Finance for car insurance. So now they're in the car insurance business, too.

And you know what they say about leasing: "They'll cut everybody lease deals on a car and subsidize it with inflated residuals and dealer cash to get it on the road."

petee1997

As far as quality goes, the bar was set very low back in o3 and o4. MB had nowhere to go but up. I must admit that so far so good.I have had no issues to date. If the W212 has average reliability I can live with that. Comparatively speaking, mediocre is a superlative for MB cars.
I must admit that 220s is right when he says the material quality has gone down. The heavy use of plastic would indicate this but I question if it's to save money. I think plastic is to reduce weight. Of course, like everything else I write,it is pure conjecture based on nothing but a guess. I was going to say an "educated guess" but again, who am I kidding.

K-A

Yeah, I've been getting those Insurance solicitations from M-B for a while.

I don't like the "new" way either, everything is just blending in, but oh well. M-B has always been as premium as it gets to me, and as alluring as anything, Ferrari, etc., my whole life. I hope their new format of being such a "mass producer" company doesn't change that more and more.... Maybe I just gotta make more money, and get a Ferrari next time then.

As for the extended use of plastics, this is also very apparent. Like Petee said, it could be for weight savings, or ability to withstand more abuse and last more time, but obviously the material difference isn't as large as it was in the old days VS lesser cars.

220S

Yeah, like Petee says maybe it's weight. Or as you say, 'abuse.' That's if we try to think positively about it. But then the critic in me says, okay let's reduce weight. But why not use good plastic. Lots of high end stuff has plastic but one can tell immediately between 'nice' plastic and crappy plastic. Why not the nice rubberized type of plastic that has a good tactile feel instead of something hard and cheesy and feels like it's going to shatter in cold weather. Surely there can be lightweight materials that also feel good and look good, and still stay within the profit margins.

Again the critic/cynic tells me that it's really about the $$ and that fine line of what can still be pulled off before the consumer finally takes up arms and rebels