threeMBs

The topic is wet surface.

NASCAR and IRL (nor old CART) do not run on wet ovals.

ImInPA

Understood and agreed. Even with a wet surface, the amount of traction generated is still dependent on the tires. I can tell you that the Benz is one of the only non-AWD vehicles I have had in a long long time. It definitely has less tendency to understeer in the wet than any AWD vehicle I have owned. This is becuase I run good tires and my front tires can use all of the available traction for steering, unlike a FWD or AWD vehicle.

threeMBs

Yes absolutely agree. On a vehicle(s) I use in rain, I always change to new rain biased tires way before 50% worn.

petee1997

I was born in snow country and have owned numerous AWD vehicles. In 50 years of Winter driving I have yet to have an accident. I repeat I do not need snow tires with my 4Matic and all season tires. I do not need a lesson in physics. Is that clear you condescending smart a#ss.

PS Nor does my wife need snow tires with her 4Matic. While you were studying physics we learned to drive in the great white north.

MagicJack

+1. This is true. awd is good for low traction situations for accelerating and maintaining speed. Braking and skidpad performance are not affected.

Weight / gas milage, handling and price are the sacrifices for this attribute.

enzo thecat

I know, RIGHT? OMG, these people on the forum will defend their choice in car no matter what the argument. Vinyl vs leather, 350 vs 550, badges, I mean its insane. You have to sift through so much BS to learn anything here, I think I am going to give up. I mean, REALLY, people think that a 4 matic isnt one thousand times better in snow or slick rain? I live in Indiana. Rear wheel drive cars will not go up my driveway in the snow. My last rwd car, (2008 infinity) couldn't even get home on the first snow fall. Finally got home and immediately ordered snow tires and wheels, a jack, a torque wrench, and other tools. Had to change tires twice a year. With a 4 matic, I can drive circles around pickup trucks and any front wheel drive car. I will never have anything but an all wheel drive car again unless I move to Florida.

How anyone could say differently is beyond ignorant.

CEB

What is interesting is that tire experts (as opposed to people who believe that the laws of physics don't apply to 4matic equipped cars) now consider 4/32nds to be the new 2/32nds because 2/32nds doesn't evacuate water properly.

Quite simply, tires make the difference - if it is wet weather driving or driving in snow.

While it is obviously possible to drive in snow using improper tires, the posters who say "4matic is enough" have never driven on snow tires.

I wonder why Germany (and much of the rest of Europe) mandates winter tires. It looks like even Quebec has joined the winter tire mandate - but what do they know.

In addition (from the Tirerack website)

"NOTE: A Highway Safety Code regulation passed September 17, 2008 for Quebec, Canada, stipulates that:
"Between 15 December to 15 March, the owner of a taxi or passenger vehicle registered in Quebec may not put the vehicle into operation unless it is equipped with tires specifically designed for winter driving, in compliance with the standards prescribed by government regulation. The prohibition also applies to any person renting out passenger vehicles not equipped with that type of tires."
While dedicated winter/snow tires bearing the mountain/snowflake symbol are available in sizes for most passenger cars and minivans, the wide range of sizes and load ranges for tires used on crossover vehicles, sport utility vehicles, pickup trucks and full size vans encouraged Quebec to temporarily expand its definition of acceptable tires to implement this law.
Alternate tires not bearing the mountain/snowflake symbol which have one or more of the following terms branded in their tire name or tire size are temporarily acceptable: Alaska, Arctic, A/T or AT Blizzard, Ice, LT, Nordic, Snow (but not mud and snow), Stud, Ultratraction or Winter.
While the inclusion of LT in this list means that any LT-metric, Flotation LT or LT-numeric sized tire is acceptable, drivers facing challenging winter driving will be best served by selecting dedicated winter/snow tires, followed by On-/Off-Road All-Terrain or Commercial Traction tires.
Starting December 15, 2014, the Highway Safety Code regulation specifies only tires bearing the mountain/snowflake symbol will be considered acceptable winter/snow tires in Quebec.

ttoE550

What's missing in all of this is the driver. An experienced driver in all-weather tires can out drive someone not experienced in snow driving in snow tires. Driving in snow requires different techniques. People who don't know how to brake on snow need a tire that accommodates incorrect technique. Yes, a snow tire wil help an experienced driver, but it is not the disaster everyone makes it out to be.

I remember watching an SCCA race with open-wheel RWD cars in regular all-season tires. Midway through the race it began to snow. Cars sliding all over the place except for one that barely slowed down from the dry weather pace. Nobody could figure out why he was seemingly "immune from the laws of physics." Turns out that he was a multi-championship winning ice-racing champion from Russia. He wasn't immune; he just understood them better. This was at mid-Ohio so some braking was involved.

CEB

Of course the driver makes a difference, but even a "great" driver must abide by the laws of physics.

ttoE550

Regulations mandating the broad use of snow tires is much like a uniform speed limit that applies equally to a Ferrari and a broken down 1980 landscaper's pickup on sagging springs and pep-boy tires. It's simply addressing the least qualified driver.

ttoE550

Yes, and a qualified driver will adjust to remain within the limits implied by physics no matter the tire.

I drove through the entire state of Georgia In March 1993 when it was covered in several inches of ice. No plows, no salt. Just a block of ice. I drove a RWD Camaro with regular tires. I never got stuck and had no trouble braking. I passed a National Guard Humvee stuck in a ditch. I learned to drive in a small TX town that got big snows but did not plow.

petee1997

Please keep in mind anyone living in snow areas have snow plows clearing roads after first snow flake and the roads are salted immediately. The greatest danger is most likely a big snowfall in Virginia where there is no equipment to plow or salt the roads. To make matters worse inexperinced drivers who have no idea what they are doing.
These arguments may all be for naught. Here in Ottawa,we are expecting a green Xmas,only the second time in my life. Maybe it's global warming. No, that can't be. The republicans said there is no such thing and they can't be wrong. They talk to God.

enzo thecat

LOL. Spoken like a true democrat. Oops! Sorry, we are not supposed to insult members here. So, I apologize for calling you a democrat.

GermanCars

Now you really have overstepped the bounds of decency

Interesting thread. I can only relate from my front wheel drive racing days. Boy, was racing in the rain fun! When you all get tired of that white stuff come on down to sunny Florida. Down here 4matic just lowers your fuel economy, and allows me to make money on front C.V. Joint boots.

threeMBs

Realy? How about daily summer's downpours on I-75, especially south of exit 195 two lanes? Many cars waiting out off the road, AWDs (Quattros, 4matics) - carry on at speeds allowed by traction of the tires.

WEBSRFR

Wow

WEBSRFR

You might instead want to apologize for not having the decency to keep your political drivel garbage out of a car forum.

enzo thecat

Me? Me? You better go re-read the thread, s l o w l y. I could accuse you of the same thing for this post. You shouldn't mention politics in a car forum..

petee1997

If we can't laugh at ourselves, politicians and fools,life would be very boring. It's more fun than talking about grip on tires. Let's lighten up a bit. By the way, I was the one who started this with a political cheap shot and I'm not even American. I hope that wasn't a capital offence.

hyperion667

I KNOW!!! how much fun would that be????
especially if it's not your car.....
but really, that would come in very handy to have the experience
of that kind of driving.....

ImInPA

If you can't laugh at yourself, others will do it for you.

CEB

Perhaps not a capital offense (or offence) but you now will be on the TSA watch list. Your next trip through a US airport will entitle you to a free grope.

Arrie

WOW indeed!

This is what I used to do myseld and it is great fun. Also, usually no risk for car damage if you run off the track.

For some in this forum it could give a hint about slippery surface driving if watched this film carefully.

The very important part, perhaps most important of driving on ice is to be able to steer the car by slip. The car direction is set by controlled slipping and this with an AWD car is so much easier than non AWD it is unbelieveble.

Now, the best medicine, of course, is to drive so slow that there is no issue with steering or braking but then we would not need to have this thread either...

GermanCars

I don't know about "south of exit 195 two lanes?". I do see people migrate south with their "snow belt" Mercedes and BMW all wheel drives and spend maintenance money on systems that they receive little or no benefit from. Goes for ML's and BMW X series as well. Sure, we receive the occasional deluges down here from time to time, and under those circumstances I'm sure all wheel drive is an assist. I for one would rather just slow down a bit for the short period of time necessary rather than to live with transfer cases, front final drives, front C.V. Joints, etc. If I lived up there with you guys you bet, absolutely! For the rest of us here in the sunbelt, my experience as a ASE Master Tech and long term shop owner is that the cost and complication of all wheel drive out weights it's benefits.

WEBSRFR

Have you signed up for the AMG driving Academy thing? I really want to do that one day to figure out how to better handle my car in a bad situation. But that ice video you posted is a whole different level of fun. Something that struck me about the video is that they say the temps are below freezing and they are wearing very light clothing. Maybe the adrenaline is keeping them warm