marka5083

I've noticed that I'm slipping more in this car vs. the Audi AWD's I had previously. I'm sure some of it is the AWD vs. RWD but I feel like I've had to retreat a bit in my driving habits to a more conservative set of behaviors in order to safely maneuver in wet conditions. Of course, this isn't necessarily a bad thing - safety first and all that.

On the other hand, I wonder if I'm just doing it wrong. Should I be expecting better traction from the RWD? Note I'm on stock Pirelli tires too.

CEB

You didn't indicate your location but there are a few things to consider:

Single axle drive (RWD/FWD) will inherently have more traction loss as the weather conditions deteriorate.

As temps get colder, the tire compound in summer or all-seather tires gets harder, decreasing traction. The proper tires for conditions should resolve this issue though.

AWD will only really help to get your car motivated. It doesn't help steering or stopping the car - only your tires affect that.

threeMBs

That's exactly why many people stay with AWD (Quattro or 4matic). It was a big adjustment for me when I switched from Quattro to RWD. The first thing I did was getting rid of stock tires for summer wet weather biased rubber (TireRack is a great resourse tool).

Arrie

Sorry but you are wrong with your last starement. AWD definitively improves car handling when driving in slippery conditions other than just getting the car to go.

With AWD you can drive thru a curve much faster than just RWD or even FWD. ESP also works better with AWD. Undriven tire with FWD or RWD loses grip suddenly while driven tire loses grip more in a controlled fashion and it is easier for the ESP to react to this.

CEB

Not really. Turning and braking rely on traction.That traction is provided by the tires. If the tires have no traction then that AWD won't help you turn.

Tirerack has a simplified explanation.

stemags

For me the jury is still out regarding the 4matic experience in winter conditions but I do know this.The tires make the difference no matter what with RWD.The competency of the car's handling improves with 4WD but if the tires arent up to the elements,,then you end up in a ditch like 90% of the SUV badboys who zoom by you in snow,,but forgot how to stop,and what makes them stop safely.
I have heard from Audi drivers and the quattro thing,,they rave about it.
My.02$.

hyperion667

4matic rocks!

Stockwell

My experience is "a Good set of Winter Tire if u live in Snow area or an Excellent set of Summer tire"... That make a big difference. AWD did help extend the tire limit but not always. My friends did slide and crash his Audi A6 last year because of 4 season tire in snow ! My experience with BMW 5 RWD with Michelin Pilot Alpin PA3 was very positive. But my current E350 4matic with PA3 give me the most solid feel in Snow..

CEB

It is very simple. The only thing connecting you to the ground is your tires and the number of driven doesn't mean much if they are all sliding.

threeMBs

Obsolutely correct - proper tire for conditions is everything. I remember very well first time I drove RS6 in snow - I could not get going at all as all four tires (oem summer only, go figure for NA market shipped in January) were spinning. Once "snows" were on, traction was unmatched.

All season tires are a bad compromise. It was intended mostly for American consumer not wanting to do the "right" thing, which is summer tires on dedicated "summer" wheels and winter tires (and there's a wide range in traction here as well) on dedicated "winter" wheels.

As a side note, many current performance winter tires will outperform many all season tires in dry and wet and can even be used in summer's hit in Northern states as well. Yes, tires like Dunlop Winter Sport can be used year round instead of many all-season and so called "touring" tires, that most cars come equipped with as oem tire, in those regions.

stemags

Funny you should say that,,just installed Dunlops winter sport 3d's yesterday,,now Im dyin to go play in the snow Must say they are comfortable and not loud,,like my Pirellis were. But altho they cost only 200$ each,,you get 5 or 6 seasons out of them if you run Summer Performance tires in the milder weather.

petee1997

I find snow tires unecessary now that I have a 4Matic with all season tires. The average total Winter season snowfall in my area is 9ft.

hyperion667

ENJOY!!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrQZRcLOWfk

threeMBs

I think you missed the point of the last few posts - tire is everything. But if you realy believe and practis what you stated, more power to you.

CEB

What part of "the only thing connecting you to the road is your tires" is difficult to comprehend.

While AWD may help with traction, there is absolutely no question that AWD does not help you stop. Stopping in usually considered an important part of driving and you are not exempt from the laws of physics.

Just so you know I'm not making this up.

Arrie

CEB,

I don't know how much winter driving experience you have but I can tell you I lived 30 years in an environment where snow is on the ground 6 months of the year. I know winter driving.

There are two basic behaviors with one axle driven cars, i.e. over steer and under steer.

Rear wheel driven cars, all of them, will tend to over steer, i.e. the back of the car flips and in ditch you go. Now, with ESP in our cars this is a bit better as the car controls power to the wheels based on slip of the wheels but still you are in great danger to "fish tail" off the road.

Front wheel driven cars do the opposite, all of them. Some are better, some are worse. (Must meantion here that a SAAB 96 that I used to own was by far the best car of all front wheel driven cars that I drove to handle snow conditions). When trying to turn at too fast speed the front wheels loses grip, the lateral grip I think they call it, and the car starts to push forward, i.e. you experience severe under steer. And when you turn more on the steering wheel the worse it gets. You go off the road nose first.

Now, with a well balanced AWD car things are completely different. When driving thru a turn too fast you will loose traction at both ends of the car at the same time. You start under steering and over steering for the front and rear axles simultaneourly and the car starts sliding sideways. This means the car still ponts to the direction you want to go to and when ESP controls the power down to the weels it is far easier to keep the car on the road. Of course, if your speed is just too high off you go but even with a car with AWD and without ESP it is way easier to just manuall do correction to your speed and direction. It also is that when the 4-wheel slide starts it happens in more gradual fashion. It is not as sudden as it is with FWD or RWD cars, at least in most cases.

Audi is superior with their Quattro with this. They are the first car maker with AWD and as far as I know still the best doing it. If I lived in snow conditions I would probably still be driving my Q7 but luckily I don't need that any more.

Go drive AWD car that is otherwise the same as yours. Go in an empty snowy parking lot and drive a circle with the AWD car and compare what you do with the RWD. Of course, you need the same tires to compare and there is nothing compared to real winter tires when driving in snow and ice.

threeMBs

Excellent summary, Arrie, of AWD system's advantage in snow (especially when fitted with snow tires). I just want to add that AWD cars allow the same superior control in wet conditions (the more water is on the road the more you feel the difference) provided of course tire has enough thread left to shed the water from under the tire to resist hydroplaning.

Arrie

Yes, tou are correct with wet condition. I just talked about snow as that is the far worse situation, ice is the worst.

Where I originally come from we had ice driving tracks blowed on lakes and rivers in winter time for people to go practice driving in snow and ice conditions. It is really fun to do as you can put your car on the limits when going off of the road does not cause any damage to your car. And cities did this for free, i.e it did not cost any money to go drive on these tracks.

CEB

Arrie - I have driven awd (including two Audis) exclusively in the winter time and I completely agree that the driving feel is different as long as the car has traction. However, as soon as there is no traction, then four hockey pucks slide as easily as two.

The OP was in a position where he lost traction. Additional drive wheels won't help, but the correct tires will.

Would you rather have awd with incorrect tires or one driven axle with the proper tires? Most people who have driven extensively in snow would choose the proper tires.

Arrie

I always prefer correct tires but your opinion seems to be that with the same tires an AWD car does not handle better than a FWD or a RWD car. Sorry but I just totally disagree.

venchka

I have read all of the above. IMHO...

1. Why does every Rally and Rally Cross car worthy of the name have 4 wheel drive? Admitedly, they also have the best available brakes and tires. There must be something gained with 4 wheel drive or they would not tolerate the additional complexity and weight.
2. My limited experience: 150 miles. Trooper II. Front hubs locked. 25-30 mph. 4-5 hours. Fresh hard ice. https://www.google.com/webhp?hl=en&t...=1584&bih=1044

2 close calls were caused by idiots with 2 wheel drive doing things they had no business doing. Namely, driving on ice. Otherwise, the 4 wheel drive and Bridgestone Duelers performed well. All wheel drive Rules!

Wayne

ImInPA

The more tasks your tires are asked to to the more traction is compromised. In a front wheel drive car, the front wheels are called upon to both propel and steer the car. This compomises the tires performance. In an RWD vehicle, the front wheels only have to steer. All of the available traction is used for steering, unlike a front wheel drive car where the tires traction is split between proulsion and navigation. This is why many of the finest sports cars are still RWD. It keeps the steering pure.

threeMBs

There is absolutely no question that AWD will outperform non-AWD in all driving conditions, except dry pavement, when fitted with identical tires. The only exception is under straight line braking where tires is everything and anything else is secondary, except maybe weight - non-AWD version of the same vehicle, due to being lighter a bit, should do a bit better.

CEB

That is not at all what I meant. AWD clearly has different handling characteristics but AWD isn't a magic potion that overcomes the laws of physics. If your tires have no grip then 100 driven wheels won't help.

I much prefer the feel of AWD but I also know that leaving all season tires on is like trying to walk up an icy driveway wearing tennis shoes - better that leather soled dress shoes but still not the proper footwear.

ImInPA

Sorta correct. In low surface friction situations, AWD will perform better. One need look no further than NASCAR to know that RWD is the better handling on high friction surfaces where performance is needed.