Airmousam

Nice detective work Greg, could not agree more, that site had some gems.... i assume we can expect a 13 paragraph response, with graphs, anytime now....i can usually get thru 4 or 5 sentences, always same o........now you have to find the thread that got him banned ya know w/o stalking

E Classy

i've said this before and i'll say it again: i would not be surprised in the slightest if the human behind the K-A sn is being paid to post his paragraphs on car forums.

as far as trolls go, he's actually not that bad. i agree with some of what he says. the routines/cycles/schtick get tough to read over and over again, though.

petee1997

Correction! You have owned one used 06 E class and rented two new W212's and presently rent a 535i.

This info is only for accuracy. The word "own" should not be used figuratively.

K-A

Haha, glad to provide some life to this forum and reclaim my strong following and fanbase.

Remember, my feelings toward Mercedes were so extra soured BECAUSE the F10 blew me away and showed me a better product in every way. Mercedes pulled a hoax in trying to charge even a remotely close price considering how lacking the product is, just like they did by about-facing their flawed design while BMW designed the car to stand the test of time in its original form

I defended M-B before because I entrusted the brand. Then I woke up, experienced a BMW, studied both cars extensively with open eyes and now know what I know. M-B touted how rigid the W212 was which always seemed odd as both of mine creaked and rattled and flexed, not to mention massive complaints from other drivers. Then I find the F10 is the actual tank in this class, it's torsional rigidity so far above the E that it's just about in line with the new S! That shows just how over engineered BMW really designed it.

K-A

Which Mercedes UK forum? My car forum alias character must be so popular and widely followed by my obsessives that I've developed imposters. This is the only MB forum I provide my knowledge, enlightenment and wisdom to.

K-A

Absolutely. M-B's own regard for this design renders it an incomplete bandaid generation and the about-face it had to receive (thus ruining a fine design) speaks volumes about how its own creators think of it.

True to form, in years from now, the MB faithful who defended it will uptalk the next gen and admit how the W212 generation was Mercedes' biggest E fumble of all time, losing them all their previously leading market share to the 5.

But until then, defend away, Mercedes loves customers who won't call them out for acting like flaky amateurs in a premium price segment.

As for the door popping, no bueno indeed. Not gonna defend that. But I'd still get an F10 in this segment twice and pay more for it than its competitors, which speaks volumes on the car right there.

DC-IT

K-A I'm confused... in 2012 you posted that the chassis of the W212 is the toughest, even better than the new F10.

But now that you're driving the same F10 you claimed that it's chassis is more rigid than the E?
Did I miss something or did BMW changed the chassis in the F10?

GregTR

You didn't miss a thing. K-A will regurgitate stats that help to eliminate his current mental cognitive dissonance battle and insecurity complex. When he's in a W212 torsional rigidity numbers are meaningless and the only thing that's important is looking at photos of wrecked cars and eyeballing them, checking how much their roof can hold vs. their own body weight and posting euro crash test awards. When he drives an F10, torsional rigidity number is king. BTW the torsional rigidity number he sticks to has never been officially published it's simply deduced form the E60 number and multiplied by 55% as someone official from BMW stated in an interview that the F10 was 55% more rigid than the E60. Again, no official number has ever been released by anyone it is deduced from two questionable non-official sources. But that is neither here, nor there, it's a fact from our guru K-A so it must be true.

In all seriousness the dude has zero credibility and I will dispute and refute everything he posts from now on by quoting his own drivel from 2 years ago as that is all it takes. K-A is entitled to his opinion but he's not entitled to his own facts. And his opinion is quite honestly getting a bit sickening and boring...

K-A

M-B stated that their chassis used the best materials available at the the of its construction. I figured that meant it'd be the most rigid car. I'd been told that the F10 was more rigid but didn't believe it as it's rigidity figure was quoted so high it was frankly unbelievable.

Then when I did my own digging, to my shock, it was true, 38k nm's of torsional rigidity, which is EXTREMELY over engineered for a car of its price range. That then explained why it always scored quiet and more solid than the E in tests, not to mention crash scores. So many complaints from 212'ers for rattles and poor suspension characteristics, and both of mine had all those problems. Rattles, too soft chassis for the abusive suspension, etc. The W212 rigidity is 29.9k nm's which is highly lacking from F10's.

Nobody complains about F10 rattles, mine has been a TANK, total opposite from my E that was groaning and squeaking. Roads that use to make my 212 flop and shiver, my F10 goes over like a finesse bull and no rattles for squeaks to date.

GregTR

OK dude, until you can provide actual sources for any of this "digging" of yours from a legitimate source you're speculating and copy/pasting and spewing dumb information that is baseless. The list you pulled your data from is sourceless. Someone put some numbers down with zero credibility. The fact that this stupid list has been reposted on numerous forums by morons like you does not make it true.

One more time: facts have to be based on evidence. You have none other than the anecdotal kind.

K-A

All I have is evidence. Everything I've stated is fact or highly knowledgeable experience based. Of course an MB fanboy will kick and scream against it and try to find ways to refute it even though they (you) lack in the same experience and knowledge. This is all pretty cookie cutter stuff.

GregTR

Are you debate team captain in your class? Because you really suck at it...

I'm still waiting for your sources on any and all your claims...

K-A

Actually I appear to be exceptional at it. I've got a forum of adults resorting to, by ways of being unable to refute anything I say while bitter at the logical conclusions I've drawn, ad-hominem childish inferiority-complexed sand-throwing. It's fascinating.

K-A

Here's a list:

Numerical order (Nm/deg)

Koenigsegg Agera R - 65000 Nm/deg
Bugatti Veyron - 60000 Nm/deg
Koenigsegg Agera - 58000 Nm/deg
BMW 6 Series Coupe- 43000 nm/deg
Rolls Royce Phantom - 40500 Nm/deg
Mercedes Benz S Class (W222) - 40500 Nm/deg
Audi R8 (2014 MY) - 40000 Nm/deg
Lexus LF-A - 39130 Nm/deg
BMW F10 5 Series - 37,500 Nm/deg
BMW F01 7 Series- 37,500 Nm/deg
Volkswagen Phaeton - 37000 Nm/deg
Lamborghini Aventador - 35000 Nm/deg
Lamborghini Gallardo Super Trofeo Stradale - 35000 Nm/deg
Ferrari F50 - 34600 Nm/deg
Fisker Karma - 33000 Nm/deg
Porsche 911 (997) - 33000 Nm/deg
Volkswagen Passat (2006) - 32400 Nm/deg
BMW Z4 Coupe - 32000 Nm/deg
Alfa 159 - 31400 Nm/deg
BMW E65 7- 31,200 Nm/deg
BMW F07 5GT - 31000 Nm/deg
Mazda Rx-8 - 30000 Nm/deg
Mercedes Benz W212 E - 29920 Nm/deg
Aston Martin Vanquish - 28500 Nm/deg
Koenigsegg CC8 - 28100 Nm/deg
Aston Martin Rapide - 28000 Nm/deg
BMW E70 X5 - 28000 Nm/deg
Land rover Freelander 2 - 28000 Nm/deg
Mercedes Benz S Class (W221) 27,500 Nm/deg
Ford GT - 27100 Nm/deg
Aston Martin DB9 Coupe - 27000 Nm/deg
Pagani Zonda F - 27000 Nm/deg
Porsche 911 Turbo 996 - 27000 Nm/deg
Lotus Evora - 26600 Nm/deg
Pagani Zonda C12 S - 26300 Nm/deg
Porsche Carrera GT - 26000 Nm/deg
Audi A8 - 25000 Nm/deg
Pagani Zonda C12 - 25000 Nm/deg
Volkswagen Golf V GTI - 25000 Nm/deg
Mini (2003) - 24500 Nm/deg
BMW E39 5 - 24000 Nm/deg
BMW E60 5 - 24000 Nm/deg
BMW E53 X5 (2004) - 23100 Nm/deg
BMW E30 M3 - 23000 Nm/deg
Lambo Gallardo - 23000 Nm/deg
BMW E90 - 22500 Nm/deg
Bugatti Veyron Grand Sport - 22000 Nm/deg
Jaguar X (Sedan) - 22000 Nm/deg
Mercedes Benz SL (top up) - 21000 Nm/deg
Saab 9-3 Sportcombi - 21000 Nm/deg
Ford Mustang 2005 - 21000 Nm/deg
Chrysler Crossfire - 20140 Nm/deg
Lamborghini Murcielago - 20000 Nm/deg
Volvo S60 - 20000 Nm/deg
Ford Focus 3d - 19600 Nm/deg
Audi TT Coupe - 19000 Nm/deg
Bugatti EB110 - 19000 Nm/deg
Volvo S80 - 18600 Nm/deg
Bentley Azure - 18000 Nm/deg
BMW E46 Sedan (w/o folding seats) - 18000 Nm/deg
Maserati QP - 18000 Nm/deg
Pagani Zonda Roadster - 18000 Nm/deg
Volkswagen Fox - 17941 Nm/deg
Ford Focus 5d - 17900 Nm/deg
Chevrolet Cruze - 17600 Nm/deg
Ford GT40 MkI - 17000 Nm/deg
Mercedes Benz SL (top down) - 17000 Nm/deg
Jaguar X (Estate) - 16319 Nm/deg
Ford Mustang 2003 - 16000 Nm/deg
Jaguar XK - 16000 Nm/deg
Aston Martin DB9 Convertible - 15500 Nm/deg
Mazda Rx-7 - 15000 Nm/deg
BMW Z4 Roadster - 14500 Nm/deg
Ferrari 360 - 14455 Nm/deg
BMW E46 Wagon (w/folding seats) - 14000 Nm/deg
McLaren F1 - 13500 Nm/deg
Porsche 911 Turbo (2000) - 13500 Nm/deg
BMW E46 Sedan (w/folding seats) - 13000 Nm/deg
Porsche 959 - 12900 Nm/deg
BMW E46 Coupe (w/folding seats) - 12500 Nm/deg
Opel Astra - 12000 Nm/deg
Audi A2 - 11900 Nm/deg
Porsche 911 Turbo 996 Convertible - 11600 Nm/deg
Lotus Elise 111s - 11000 Nm/deg
BMW E36 Touring - 10900 Nm/deg
BMW E46 Convertible - 10500 Nm/deg
Lotus Elise S2 Exige (2004) - 10500 Nm/deg
Ferrari 355 - 10042 Nm/deg
Lotus Elise - 10000 Nm/deg
Renault Sport Spider - 10000 Nm/deg
Ford Mustang Convertible (2005) - 9500 Nm/deg
Chevrolet Corvette C5 - 9100 Nm/deg
Lotus Elan GRP body - 8900 Nm/deg
Ferrari 360 Spider - 8500 Nm/deg
Lotus Elan - 7900 Nm/deg
Dodge Viper Coupe - 7600 Nm/deg
Chrysler Durango - 6800 Nm/deg
Lotus Esprit SE Turbo - 5850 Nm/deg
BMW E36 Z3 - 5600 Nm/deg
Mazda MX-5 (later w/ bracing) - 5150 Nm/deg
Mazda MX-5 (1990) - 4880 Nm/deg
Ford Mustang Convertible (2003) - 4800 Nm/deg
Lamborghini Countach - 2600 Nm/deg

GregTR

Dude, I just posted an evening worth of fascinating quotes from you that go 100% opposite to what you're preaching today. So please tell us what flavor was the Kool Aid that made you go 180 degrees on everything you posted about the W212 and the F10 in 2012?

You are arguing against the very logic you yourself utilized to bash the F10 compared to the W212? What happened to these two cars in the past 2 years that made the facts so opposite? Your opinion could have changed but I just want to know why?

Was your research back in 2012 so sloppy and weak that you ended up buying the weaker car in the first place? Did you suddenly become an expert at researching facts in the last 2 years? Did you get your GED or did you happen to stay at a Holiday Inn Express?

Seriously, I have never seen anyone go from one extreme to another ever other than narcisistic a-holes who just have to scream from the top of their lungs that everyone who came to a different conclusion based on the presented "facts" must be an idiot.

So again, please enlighten us W212 owner idiots what was wrong with your logic and reasoning in 2012?

On a side note, how is that cheap plastic keyfob of the F10 treating you?

GregTR

Actually the F10 is only 34,000 Nm/deg and the W212 is cloer to 36K... It's a fact.

Airmousam

Whats not to like about Greg!!

Still no answer about the resolution to the door unlatch issue......resolved before you traded or sold?? What was it?

Airmousam

All good points.....agree

K-A

LOL. You wish. Wishful fanboy-ness getting the best of you, eh? Praying to the Mercedes gods that in a perfect world, that could be true? The W212 sloppy chassis can only wish. The F10 is one of the most rigid cars in the world. The BRAND NEW S Class is barely even more rigid.

Airmousam: Actually still have the car for another 10 months and haven't taken it in for the door latch thing. In fact, unlike my M-B's, this car hasn't had to go in for any defects yet (W212's had to go to the dealers right away to fix little issues). I'm getting it serviced soon so will have them look into it. Maybe I should be more concerned but I haven't put much though into it.

GregTR

My facts are just as valid as yours as you provided just as much evidence to substantiate them as I have. I can't believe you're this dense...

K-A

No, you're on some ad hominem fanboy rants, making numbers up to justify your overpriced purchase.

If you want to debate these cars, well there's no debate because clearly you've got nothing but cry's for me to go away and let you bask in your artificial walls of E Class dominance. Fact is, I've had more E's than you, I have an F10, and I clearly have studied these cars more than you have on top of that.

F01 7 chassis rigidity stated in this official workbook: http://www.londonroadgarage.com/imag...Module%201.pdf

The F10 is on the same chassis and actually said to be stiffer as it has tighter dimensions.

K-A

To show just how stiff the F10/F01 chassis is, in the 6 Series Coupe (which again is a shortened F10 chassis) you one of the top few chassis strengths in HISTORY. 43K nm/deg, which is even more than M-B's best current effort, the new S Class (which is actually riding on a beefed up W221 chassis, not an all new chassis).

GregTR

Sarcasm is not your strong suit I see...

Just take your time and read back every single thing I posted in this thread. Not once I praised the W212 nor bashed the F10. I only berated you and your idiotic fanboyness because that is all that matters....

I'm still waiting for your explanation of the 180 degree change of heart when nothing changed in terms of technology on these two vehicles other than a "massive facelift" without which the entire MB conglomerate would have gone under. So the roof is still stronger on the E-class but I'm guessing that is far less important now that you're on the torsional rigidity bandwagon that you happened to bash 2 years ago. Your words, not mine.

K-A

This is really very simple: I thought that by getting an M-B, I was getting "the best". Little things kept chipping away at that, i.e sloppy chassis that made the jarring suspension feel like it was gonna break my car/s in half, without the benefit of handling (where it had body roll like an old Caddy and over-boosted steering to feel far too sensitive), then I'd hear magazine reviewers and drivers alike rave about how the F10 is on a 7 Series chassis which is also shared with a Rolls Royce, thus feeling like "that ultra solid, bomb-roof way Mercedes used to feel" (Motor Trend or C&D), getting quieter decibels inside, and apparently being largely rattle free, while BOTH my E's (and according to threads here, MANY other drivers experience) were heavily becoming rattle-prone (off and on) as the chassis and suspension couldn't absorb road impacts.

Then I'd read the F10 getting better safety scores by a wide margin (Euro NCAP and NHTSA).

Yes, the sole weaker spot of the F10 appears to be its roof. It scores pretty moderate there, though the entire chassis itself is strong enough to be one of the strongest cars in the world, period, almost 30% stiffer than the E Class, which is astounding! You know how they got that 43K figure out of the 6 Series? It's the same chassis as the F10, i.e same materials, however they gave it a stronger roof, which obviously did wonders to an already, largely over-engineered, incredibly stiff chassis.

So after looking at the F10 with an open mind, then looking closer, then driving, then getting it, I came to the realization: "This is the car Mercedes always wanted to build in this segment, it does absolutely everything better, more refined, more balanced, and gives me more of what I loved about my W212, then fixed and makes right all the issues I had with my W212".

M-B about-facing and destroying the "sanctity" of the W212 design by doing the MOST extensive facelift in their history, proved to me that this isn't the M-B I fell in love with before. These guys have no confidence, no design strategy, they just go super angular once, give the car certain frills, and then admit defeat by doing a HUGELY extensive, awkward makeover where they graft found parts, all new grille and headlight shapes onto the existing, boxy and old-school style architecture. It's an embarrassment, a slap in the face to the E line, the early owners (who now have dated models prematurely) when they expect a brand like Mercedes to provide timeless design foresight.

GregTR

Cool story bro!

Allow me to follow up with some more questions:

1) You leased not one but two W212s? You're dumber than I thought! You know, fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice...you can't get fooled again.

2) While you had that horrible horrible car with jarring suspension how could you write all those superlatives about it all over the internet? I saw nothing that you posted that would have been critical of this engineering marvel at that point? Me thinks you're a bit of a hypocrite.

3) WTF do you care about "timeless design" when you change cars quicker than some change underwear? You should be glad that these cars age poorly this way you can be the elitist ***** in your fresh new lease every couple years.

4) Did you warm up enough to the cheap plasticky key of the F10 to finally whip it out and showcase it in public or do you still miss the beautiful chrome star?

Note: my questions are mostly rhetorical or tongue in cheek in case your density matches that of osmium...