Can 7.1 Harman Kardon be improved?
06-09-2014, 08:15 PM
#27
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'03 A4 2.0 Stroker, '14 E63 S AMG, '10 E550, '10 S550, '03 C240
I've seen countless threads like this of people saying the Logic 7 is lacking in one way or another and I thought the same until recently.
I had the same Logic 7 system in my 2 ML's and GL and now in my S550 and my E550.
The S550 sounds the best out of all of them(I would hope so), but the E550 is not far behind.
Dema is correct, source is EVERYTHING. After doing a lot of studying on the Logic 7 unit, the DSP(Digital Sound Processor) CANNOT decode anything other than CD audio and DVD audio. USB sticks, iPods, BT Audio, Radio, SAT radio, etc. FORGET IT! Try popping in the Demo Harmon Kardon DVD Audio disc and then tell us what you think. I have yet to take it out as I like a couple of the songs on there and it sounds sensational.
Better yet, pop in "Live Free or Die Hard" and watch some of the action scenes, it WILL blow you away. In my opinion, it sounds better than my home audio system.
When the DSP is able to decode the multi channel audio it really comes alive, I find myself turning the bass down when playing these discs as it somehow gets its legs.
For the record, I did replace the stock sub a couple times in my ML550. There was no hope for the stock one so I replaced it first with a JL 6W3V3 6.5" sub. It took a little trimming of the sub's frame/trim but I got it to fit and connected it to an MB Quart amp. Made a world of difference, after I blew the JL lol I put a 10" JL in a shallow box in the trunk and it was not as deep, but sounded cleaner.
I never felt the need for this addition in the E550.
I had the same Logic 7 system in my 2 ML's and GL and now in my S550 and my E550.
The S550 sounds the best out of all of them(I would hope so), but the E550 is not far behind.
Dema is correct, source is EVERYTHING. After doing a lot of studying on the Logic 7 unit, the DSP(Digital Sound Processor) CANNOT decode anything other than CD audio and DVD audio. USB sticks, iPods, BT Audio, Radio, SAT radio, etc. FORGET IT! Try popping in the Demo Harmon Kardon DVD Audio disc and then tell us what you think. I have yet to take it out as I like a couple of the songs on there and it sounds sensational.
Better yet, pop in "Live Free or Die Hard" and watch some of the action scenes, it WILL blow you away. In my opinion, it sounds better than my home audio system.
When the DSP is able to decode the multi channel audio it really comes alive, I find myself turning the bass down when playing these discs as it somehow gets its legs.
For the record, I did replace the stock sub a couple times in my ML550. There was no hope for the stock one so I replaced it first with a JL 6W3V3 6.5" sub. It took a little trimming of the sub's frame/trim but I got it to fit and connected it to an MB Quart amp. Made a world of difference, after I blew the JL lol I put a 10" JL in a shallow box in the trunk and it was not as deep, but sounded cleaner.
I never felt the need for this addition in the E550.
06-09-2014, 08:49 PM
#28
MBWorld Fanatic!
I second the comment about the source. I just wish the differences were not so great. When you listen to the demo disc it makes everything else sound worse.
06-09-2014, 09:49 PM
#29
Super Member
I have the 2010 e sedan and now the 2014 e coupe. In the sedan I agree lacks the depth and power on the bass side of the spectrum. The new coupe though, is TONS better. Not sure if the new sedan is any better.
06-09-2014, 10:23 PM
#30
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2011 Mercedes Benz E550
I noticed the same thing,I had a 06 STS with a Bose 15 speaker surround system ,it had more available adjustments and a deeper sound field,the HK system seems very flat to me,not much depth.
06-10-2014, 11:49 PM
#33
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Lexus LS 400, 2008 BMW 528i, 2014 e250 BlueTec
2014 Harmon Kardon sound is much improved compared to previous years. I picked up 2014 today and I can tell pretty big difference. Sound is clearer and more crisp. I love it!
06-11-2014, 01:19 PM
#34
Junior Member
09-27-2015, 03:17 PM
#35
Member
As mentioned above, for those of you that don't like the sound of the Harmon Kardon audio system, you should experiment with turning Logic 7 on and off to see which you like better.
I have listened to the HK Logic 7 system in both my Range Rover and my Benz and I think it is amazing. I loved the Mark Levinson system in my old Lexus LS400 as well. Both systems come from the same corporate giant but each division has different products they use, different sound engineers designing the system, and the acoustics inside each vehicle are obviously different.
Here is a link to the technical details for every model MB that comes with the Harmon Kardon Logic 7 system... http://www.mercedes.harmankardon.com...icles/e-class/
Just purchased the following: Kicker 40DCWR122 ported enclosure with dual 12" CompR subs rated at 1,600 watts RMS at 2-ohms, Kicker 12CX1200.1 Class D mono sub amp rated at 1,200 watts RMS X 1 at 2-ohms. Will be installed on Saturday
.
Here are some photos showing a description of the products along with some technical details if anyone is interested...
You should be thankful. They gave you excellent advice. It's not often a vendor chooses to do the right thing and stop someone from making a mistake
.
What sub/s and amp/s did you decide to go with?
One of the wisest posts in the thread.
Agreed. If you put garbage in, you are going to get garbage out. Doesn't matter if you have the best equipment in the world having the best source is critical. Many music fans do not understand the quality of their music source. For example, what you get from Spotify is vastly superior to the signal you would receive from Sirius...etc etc.
You wouldn't take the LaFerrari out for a couple of laps on cheap gas. Well the same is true for your car/home audio.
I have listened to the HK Logic 7 system in both my Range Rover and my Benz and I think it is amazing. I loved the Mark Levinson system in my old Lexus LS400 as well. Both systems come from the same corporate giant but each division has different products they use, different sound engineers designing the system, and the acoustics inside each vehicle are obviously different.
Here is a link to the technical details for every model MB that comes with the Harmon Kardon Logic 7 system... http://www.mercedes.harmankardon.com...icles/e-class/
.Here are some photos showing a description of the products along with some technical details if anyone is interested...
I went to an car stereo shop and they quoted me little over $1K to install a subwoofer and amp. However, the prefab box looks clunky and just sit in the trunk and looks nothing like the custom job RNBRAD did. I asked about replacing the stock speakers and they were reluctant.
.Aside from lack of real sub bass from the oblong sub on the rear deck, the only thing that bothered me with the HK system in my 2012 was the nasally and brassy midrange. I stuck a square of ensolite PS behind each mid and it smoothed the midrange noticeably.
I also installed a sub and amp and am pretty happy with the system as it is now.
One thing I noticed but was too lazy to address was that the mid which is mounted to the doorcard, is not flush with the doorcard. I think sealing the gaps might bring out a little depth to lower vocal registers.
You might try these cheap/free things before throwing alot of money at audio.
I also installed a sub and amp and am pretty happy with the system as it is now.
One thing I noticed but was too lazy to address was that the mid which is mounted to the doorcard, is not flush with the doorcard. I think sealing the gaps might bring out a little depth to lower vocal registers.
You might try these cheap/free things before throwing alot of money at audio.
You wouldn't take the LaFerrari out for a couple of laps on cheap gas. Well the same is true for your car/home audio.
Last edited by Tonycpa; 09-27-2015 at 10:33 PM.
09-27-2015, 07:17 PM
#36
Super Member
I'm another "convert" from the Lexus line. I had an LS400 with the Nakamichi system - nice. Then I had an LS430 with the Mark Levinson system - nicer. After the 430 was a few years out of warranty, the ML woofer (not really a sub) dried out and cracked. Once I learned the price of a stock replacement, I quickly installed a Kicker free-air woofer in the stock location, powered by a 500-watt Kenwood class D amp - Much Nicer!
Fast forward some more years and I'm back in a MB, with the HK system. I'm OK with the stock system for now, and will probably not change anything until the warranty runs out. I'm a bit shy of getting into the wiring myself, then finding I have a problem that should be warranty but the dealer stiffs me because I spliced a wire.
I personally find that the HK system in the new E-Class is superior to the ML system in a 2001 LS430 in all areas except the absolute visceral bass I had with the amp. I'll have to rough it until I'm ready to risk cutting into it. Not too tough, given the decent sound of the HK Logic7 system.
I do, however, agree whole heartedly with the others who feel that listeners today are simply ignorant of the differences between sources and their material (or they have "tin ears"). I loathe mp3's, but will use them for convenience if I just want some road music on a flash drive. Any serious listening, however, will be done from a CD in the in-dash deck. No BT, no mp3, no iPod or iPhone feed, just 1's and 0's. If I could go back to analog, I'd be there. . .
Fast forward some more years and I'm back in a MB, with the HK system. I'm OK with the stock system for now, and will probably not change anything until the warranty runs out. I'm a bit shy of getting into the wiring myself, then finding I have a problem that should be warranty but the dealer stiffs me because I spliced a wire.
I personally find that the HK system in the new E-Class is superior to the ML system in a 2001 LS430 in all areas except the absolute visceral bass I had with the amp. I'll have to rough it until I'm ready to risk cutting into it. Not too tough, given the decent sound of the HK Logic7 system.
I do, however, agree whole heartedly with the others who feel that listeners today are simply ignorant of the differences between sources and their material (or they have "tin ears"). I loathe mp3's, but will use them for convenience if I just want some road music on a flash drive. Any serious listening, however, will be done from a CD in the in-dash deck. No BT, no mp3, no iPod or iPhone feed, just 1's and 0's. If I could go back to analog, I'd be there. . .
09-28-2015, 02:13 PM
#37
Member
Dat LS400 tho. I loved those lines. Man, I still remember riding out to the Hamptons that one year for Memorial Day weekend and I swear it was like Lexus unloaded a fleet of LS400's...it was like an invasion!
The Lexus brand was founded and succeeded because they built a better Mercedes than MB could. They outright copied Mercedes when they built the LS400.
One thing we should keep in mind though is we are comparing the Mark Levinson systems we had over 10 years ago vs. the Harmon Kardon systems we have today. A fairer comparison would be if we compared both systems from the same model year
The Lexus brand was founded and succeeded because they built a better Mercedes than MB could. They outright copied Mercedes when they built the LS400.
One thing we should keep in mind though is we are comparing the Mark Levinson systems we had over 10 years ago vs. the Harmon Kardon systems we have today. A fairer comparison would be if we compared both systems from the same model year
09-28-2015, 02:20 PM
#38
Super Member
True, that would be a more valid comparison. I haven't had the chance to do it, but there are probably differences. From what I've read over at Club Lexus, though, the user opinions are mixed, with some feeling that the older systems were better.
I would have to summarize it by saying that to me, they are both very good systems, but they are different, just as the cars are different. That's part of why there are so many manufacturers and models - something for everyone.
09-28-2015, 03:43 PM
#39
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2004 E55 (sold) 2012 E350 4M
Most the BMW lineup has HK. Im sure everyone in here knows someone with a 335, go listen to the HK in a 335 and it will upset you at how bad the BMW HK blows the MB HK away.
The overall components are probably very similar. The issue, in my opinion, comes from the manufacturer. BMW seems to has put more effort into the sound system in the 335i for example. Rather than 1 sub on the rear shelf, they placed 2 subs under the 2 front seats. This allows for less shelf rattle and is just a better placement for a bass driver.
I used to drive a LR3 years ago, I pulled the doors off and added hot glue to the mounting posts on the speakers and the changes were night and day... Its so sad these small details are overlooked. link to my LR3 fix: http://www.landroverworld.org/forums...ad.php?t=20684
Best thing we can probably do is pull the doors off and add some dyno-mat like in the previous post. The HK components are so under utilized in our cars, its upsetting. I am going to pull my doors off here soon and see what I can do.
The overall components are probably very similar. The issue, in my opinion, comes from the manufacturer. BMW seems to has put more effort into the sound system in the 335i for example. Rather than 1 sub on the rear shelf, they placed 2 subs under the 2 front seats. This allows for less shelf rattle and is just a better placement for a bass driver.
I used to drive a LR3 years ago, I pulled the doors off and added hot glue to the mounting posts on the speakers and the changes were night and day... Its so sad these small details are overlooked. link to my LR3 fix: http://www.landroverworld.org/forums...ad.php?t=20684
Best thing we can probably do is pull the doors off and add some dyno-mat like in the previous post. The HK components are so under utilized in our cars, its upsetting. I am going to pull my doors off here soon and see what I can do.
10-01-2015, 10:45 AM
#40
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2012 E550 sedan
LOGIC 7 on/off ?
I've seen countless threads like this of people saying the Logic 7 is lacking in one way or another and I thought the same until recently.
I had the same Logic 7 system in my 2 ML's and GL and now in my S550 and my E550.
The S550 sounds the best out of all of them(I would hope so), but the E550 is not far behind.
Dema is correct, source is EVERYTHING. After doing a lot of studying on the Logic 7 unit, the DSP(Digital Sound Processor) CANNOT decode anything other than CD audio and DVD audio. USB sticks, iPods, BT Audio, Radio, SAT radio, etc. FORGET IT! Try popping in the Demo Harmon Kardon DVD Audio disc and then tell us what you think. I have yet to take it out as I like a couple of the songs on there and it sounds sensational.
Better yet, pop in "Live Free or Die Hard" and watch some of the action scenes, it WILL blow you away. In my opinion, it sounds better than my home audio system.
When the DSP is able to decode the multi channel audio it really comes alive, I find myself turning the bass down when playing these discs as it somehow gets its legs.
For the record, I did replace the stock sub a couple times in my ML550. There was no hope for the stock one so I replaced it first with a JL 6W3V3 6.5" sub. It took a little trimming of the sub's frame/trim but I got it to fit and connected it to an MB Quart amp. Made a world of difference, after I blew the JL lol I put a 10" JL in a shallow box in the trunk and it was not as deep, but sounded cleaner.
I never felt the need for this addition in the E550.
I had the same Logic 7 system in my 2 ML's and GL and now in my S550 and my E550.
The S550 sounds the best out of all of them(I would hope so), but the E550 is not far behind.
Dema is correct, source is EVERYTHING. After doing a lot of studying on the Logic 7 unit, the DSP(Digital Sound Processor) CANNOT decode anything other than CD audio and DVD audio. USB sticks, iPods, BT Audio, Radio, SAT radio, etc. FORGET IT! Try popping in the Demo Harmon Kardon DVD Audio disc and then tell us what you think. I have yet to take it out as I like a couple of the songs on there and it sounds sensational.
Better yet, pop in "Live Free or Die Hard" and watch some of the action scenes, it WILL blow you away. In my opinion, it sounds better than my home audio system.
When the DSP is able to decode the multi channel audio it really comes alive, I find myself turning the bass down when playing these discs as it somehow gets its legs.
For the record, I did replace the stock sub a couple times in my ML550. There was no hope for the stock one so I replaced it first with a JL 6W3V3 6.5" sub. It took a little trimming of the sub's frame/trim but I got it to fit and connected it to an MB Quart amp. Made a world of difference, after I blew the JL lol I put a 10" JL in a shallow box in the trunk and it was not as deep, but sounded cleaner.
I never felt the need for this addition in the E550.
New here - my first post actually - and this thread was very useful. As mentioned above, the CD (or DVD, not tried yet) is the key to whether logic7 sounds right, or just not quite right.
LOGIC7 "ON" for my JAZZ CD...sounds amazing. LOGIC7 "OFF" for iPod shuffle or anything else really.
As with my audio system at home 2-channel magic will rule the day for music and give you the most organic sound. MOVIES, or DVD-A that actually have bits and byte for each channel, now thats the bomb.
I will bring a movie on my first road trip this weekend - just in case in rains :-)
CHEERS ALL, and keep the info coming.
LC - 2012 E550 sedan blk/blk
10-02-2015, 07:39 PM
#41
The 1st thing I noticed is how weak the bass is with the HK system. The louder you turn up the volume the more the bass weakens because the system is designed to protect itself that way. I joined the DIYMA.com forum to learn about high end aftermarket systems & how I can integrate them into COMAND unit. A lot of useful info on there. I already know which aftermarket speakers, amps, & DSP I'm going with.
10-02-2015, 07:41 PM
#42
Tonycpa, that Kicker set up looks like it's from Best Buy. Do you plan on letting them do the install? I almost made that mistake with my wife's C. Glad I came to my senses. If you do let them I sure hope that locations installer is better equipped than the one I went to.
10-03-2015, 05:39 PM
#43
Super Member
This may not be the reason for the change in frequency response as the volume is advanced. I believe it is that way due to the system being designed to adjust tone per the "Fletcher-Munson Curve." Fletcher and Munson were (IIRC) audio engineers back in the early days of high fidelity. Their work proved that the human ear is less sensitive to very high pitched and very low pitched sounds when the volume is low. So, they devised a tone compensation curve which boosted bass and treble at lower volume levels to compensate for the human ear's natural sensitivity.
If you remember older hi-fi and stereo systems that had a "Loudness" button, those buttons turned on the compensation for high and low tones. They were most active at low volume levels, and their impact was reduced as the volume was raised, until at some theoretical volume level they had no effect at all.
As I listen to the HK system, it sounds like an old system with the "Loudness" button on.
There is also some truth to the observation that bass volume may fall off as total system volume increases because the system may not have enough amplifier power to reproduce bass as loud as is being called for.
At least I haven't noticed the system going into clipping or flat-topping at high listening levels.
Mine sounds cleaner than the ML system in my Lexus LS did, but it doesn't have the total system "punch" that my "augmented" Lexus did, at around 1,100 watts RMS. Such is life. . .
10-03-2015, 06:46 PM
#44
MBWorld Fanatic!
I'm most likely going to buy W212 E550 soon, I went to test drive a 2010 today and found the stereo very lacking. Highs are pretty crisp, but nothing on the low end. I came across the amp install thread, and was very pleased at how easy it will be to tap the original pre-amp signal and add a real sub. That should complete the package nicely.
10-05-2015, 03:06 PM
#45
Member
Tonycpa, that Kicker set up looks like it's from Best Buy. Do you plan on letting them do the install? I almost made that mistake with my wife's C. Glad I came to my senses. If you do let them I sure hope that locations installer is better equipped than the one I went to.
10-05-2015, 03:51 PM
#46
Good.
I just wanted them to swap out the speakers & add an amp in my wife's car with some JL speakers I had in a previous vehicle. I spoke to the guy weeks in advance before I made the appointment. Once I got there he had no clue of what to do. I told him that he knew about this weeks in advance & you didn't take your craft seriously enough to do some research on the speaker swap. Told him I didn't feel comfortable with him working on my wife's car. I politely took my wife's keys & left.
I just wanted them to swap out the speakers & add an amp in my wife's car with some JL speakers I had in a previous vehicle. I spoke to the guy weeks in advance before I made the appointment. Once I got there he had no clue of what to do. I told him that he knew about this weeks in advance & you didn't take your craft seriously enough to do some research on the speaker swap. Told him I didn't feel comfortable with him working on my wife's car. I politely took my wife's keys & left.
10-06-2015, 09:09 AM
#47
Super Member
I think Best Buy would be one of the last places I would try for audio installations in a high-end car. When I was looking for a shop to do the amp and sub in my LS430, I contacted the dealer service manager and asked him where they sent all of their custom audio installation work. I then went and toured the shop, met with the owner, discussed what I wanted done and only then did I schedule an appointment and place my order.
I do sort of the same thing with body shops. My cars never go to a body shop unless I have met with the owners and mechanics, toured the shop and found it to my satisfaction. Once I select a shop, I typically stay with them for a long time.
I do sort of the same thing with body shops. My cars never go to a body shop unless I have met with the owners and mechanics, toured the shop and found it to my satisfaction. Once I select a shop, I typically stay with them for a long time.
10-06-2015, 10:44 AM
#48
Member
Good.
I just wanted them to swap out the speakers & add an amp in my wife's car with some JL speakers I had in a previous vehicle. I spoke to the guy weeks in advance before I made the appointment. Once I got there he had no clue of what to do. I told him that he knew about this weeks in advance & you didn't take your craft seriously enough to do some research on the speaker swap. Told him I didn't feel comfortable with him working on my wife's car. I politely took my wife's keys & left.
I just wanted them to swap out the speakers & add an amp in my wife's car with some JL speakers I had in a previous vehicle. I spoke to the guy weeks in advance before I made the appointment. Once I got there he had no clue of what to do. I told him that he knew about this weeks in advance & you didn't take your craft seriously enough to do some research on the speaker swap. Told him I didn't feel comfortable with him working on my wife's car. I politely took my wife's keys & left.
For serious?
10-06-2015, 06:16 PM
#50
Super Member
There is a ton of information on this topic over on the W221 (S Class) forum as I believe the HK systems are the same for both cars albeit a different operating environment. Look for posts by Mike5215. He has made some huge fairly inexpensive improvements in the HK system. Some complicated some not so much. I went with his idea about an external equalizer and an iPod with a 4$ onboard equilizer application. A world of difference and it is a simple install that costs less than a 100 bucks. It simply plugs into the command system.
Lots of ideas and suggestions.
Lots of ideas and suggestions.
