Dude, show me a sign&drive E350 for $350/month in Texas and I'll get it! Right now! Even though I don't even need one! You're a tool!

You see, you're doing it again. Now you're adding "this segment" to your claim without anything other than your opinion to back it up with. Show me the figures! I think sales data shows that MB is moving cars like mad and kicking everyone's butt in the process. They might make less per unit but they're far from being unprofitable.

You also make it sound like it's a bad thing that you can get such an amazing piece of engineering for so little. Many would consider that a feat rather than a failure. This is not a Rolex watch we're talking about where the value is in the price itself. We're talking about a car.

So until I see MB going out of business because they're losing money on every unit sold I think they're doing just fine. They could even throw in a massive facelift at "no cost".

 

There is no way a semi loaded E350 is leasing for $350 a year. Not even close that in the Ohio market anyway. Not sure why you say it is uncompetitive, as I have seen a lot of them. I love the way the face lift looks, especially the sport model. Drove one for the last week and it is one solid, comfortable car, which offers the best safety features in its market.

I am looking at buying a new car and have test driven the E Class, A6 TDI and BMW 535d M Sport. I am partial to the BMW and expected that to be the best, but it places last in my test drives. I have driven it more than once (328 is more fun than the 535). It feels very bloated, floaty and too big compared to the Mercedes and Audi. I am not the only that thinks that way about the 535, as most magazine reviews I have read have a similar opinion. I expected to like the 535 the best.

I really enjoyed my test drives in the Mercedes and Audi. The only thing that may keep me away from the Mercedes is the high maintenance costs.

 

I don't know how many ads and offers I have to show you about the E350 leasing in the $3's. I get these ads all day every day. This car is the most discounted car in history as far as I'm concnerned, that is a literal statement.

The ONLY reason M-B are going to take the sales title this year is because they practically give their volume cars away on a bargain-scale, and have the largest lineup of their competitors. It's a joke how discounted the E is, and yes it kills the cachet and regard for the car. The MARKET has valued it not much higher than a run of a mill economy car in pricing, and M-B HAD to do a reconstructive about-face on it. All in all, M-B have not upheld its dignity well, and as a former enthusiast of the car, that is unfortunate to me.

If M-B was charging lease prices along with what 535i's lease for, M-B would sell much less, as the 535i demands a higher SELLING price because IMO it's not only a better car in about every way, but it because you get much more car, a more advanced car, and one that didn't need a reconstructive, weird facelift mid cycle (BMW said "why mess with perfection"), however M-B wanted the sales title this year, so in whatever ways it occurs, the cars get let go for very low prices. I mean, 15-20+% is ridiculous, yet it's common.

A Mercedes shouldn't have fire-sale pricing for its entire production run, it's not a good look to me.

 

Ad number 5,558 of loaded-Camry-esque pricing on an E350.

 

For f&cks sake quit using the term "literally", you have no idea what that term really means. Literally! I just posted a link that showed cars with far bigger discounts than the E-sedan in the US ever received.

Which part of "sign&drive" do you not comprehend? Which part of the term "in Texas" is hard to understand? Are you really this dense or this ignorant that there is 49 other states outside of CA?

You still don't get it. The fact that MB can practically "give away" these cars and still turn a profit shows just how great value these cars really are. You're trying to turn something that is a consumer benefit into something that should be looked down. You're an elitist pr ick who drives the car for the badge and wears the Rolex for the show.

BMW would never do anything questionable to get a sales crown like sell 5k units to dealer loaner fleets at the last minute .

You really need to lay off the Coolaid, you drank way too much...

If anyone is wondering, we all are driving the Toyota Camry of Europe.

 

Problem is, the E has been getting these discounts since day one, so this is barely even a seasonal thing (though the deals get more aggressive seasonally). I got almost 20% off on my last E350 and like I've said, it wasn't even as good a deal as some people today are getting.

I'm not sure about Texas, but in CA and NY, I know for fact that people walk away with these "non luxury car" prices on luxury cars. Yes, that's great for consumers, yet raises the question that if the market prices these cars so low in ACTUAL selling prices, maybe the market doesn't feel the product itself deserves luxury car pricing.

Yes, BMW, etc. discount their cars a lot, everyone does, however I've never seen a luxury manufacturer slash VOLUME car pricing to the extent of what the W212 has gotten since its inception.

And maybe I'm a brand snob, but I think a good car should at least command a somewhat steady market price which isn't *so* drastically far from its MSRP. Of course, $100K cars are a different story, they sell in less volume and will naturally see large discounts, but a $50-$60K car needing the discounts the W212 does to keep moving in such large volume means something is wrong, IMO.

 

I hate to jump in between the emotions of two BMW type personalities, but I have to disagree with this. A mid lifespan facelift has been normal for the E for ages. W124 got a couple of them (1990 and 1994), W210 got one for 2000, W211 got one for 2007. Nothing new here.

Discounts are nothing new, either. It's just more public now with everything being emailed and publicized. In Seattle, I see commercials for F10 for something like $469 - and this is not a cheap CA volume market.

 

Yes, facelifts are normal, but the W212 got a "fixlift", it was overly reconstructive, showing that M-B had to "fix" something they didn't stand behind. Compare that to the facelift of a highly regarded design, like the F10 5er, or current C Class, where changes are very subtle because the designers know the product needs no "fixing", i.e it was perfect from the beginning.

M-B tried to market the W212 as an "all new" model for the facelift, that's how extensive the aesthetic changes were. IMO the current designers are a disgrace to a once timeless brand who's customers entrusted designs that would be very little-messed with during its production run.

The 5er discount you stated, assuming it's for a 535i just shows how much more expensive those cars are actually sold for. E's are advertised for low $300's out here all the time, with little drive off. You'll never see a 535i get down there, and if it did, it would be with a massively higher drive-off than the E.

 

It's just bothersome as I feel the pre-facelift W212 was a great product. M-B had to ruin its "dignity" by grafting on completely awkwardly matched parts to the boxy core of the car, and on top of that slash prices on the car so drastically. Is the car really that "bad" to where M-B had to treat it in such a manner? I can't support a company who won't stand behind or support their own creations.

I may have never jumped ship or gave the 5er a try if M-B didn't do that to the E. It just ruined the W212's legacy to me, making it kind of a bandaid/incomplete car now, to me.

As a former M-B fan/enthusiast, it just ruined a lot of the confidence I had in them. You have no idea if what they're getting their following all hot over today won't be considered a "mistake" tomorrow.

However, there's no doubt that getting an E350 at the prices they get let go for is a massive bargain. Of course the car will sell very well (it better). It's a great car in its own right, even though I think it looks like a horrid Chinese kit-car rip off of an E Class now, and frankly nothing competes with it in terms of value considering what you get + what you can attain it for. Its competitors you get more, IMO, but you have to pay a lot more.

 

A sunny day in Berlin? Remarkable.

A few years ago, I had this rental car in Germany. 4cyl, cloth interior, tiny nav - but a decent drive no less:




[QUOTE=GregTR;5883843

If anyone is wondering, we all are driving the Toyota Camry of Europe.

 

First of all, it's a problem for who? You? Stockholders? It certainly is not a problem for consumers! It's not a maybe whether you are a brand snob, you ARE a brand snob, it's obvious to anyone reading your posts.

Ok, now you went from "literally the most discounted car in the world" to only the most discounted "Luxury volume brand".

Like I said, as long as MB operates in the black they're doing things just fine regardless of what you "think" or "feel". Everyone is entitled to their opinions but they're not entitled to their own facts. And so far you provided nothing but opinion which is worth as much as mine or anyone else's: nothing what-so-ever.

 

So M-B has no reason to preserve their PRODUCT quality? That's what you're alluding to. Yeah, just make something haphazard that needs to be reconstructively changed prematurely, yet as long as they're in the black, they're okay. Sorry, but that attitude isn't what got Mercedes to where they are today, that isn't befitting of the PREMIUM brand they market themselves as.

If a car has to get price slashed to SUCH degrees, there's obviously something not great with it, and it isn't a good business model, especially for a premium brand. Not to mention it annihilates resale value and steadiness, which is also a sore look for an especially marquee brand.

We're supposed to be enthusiasts, right? Who cares how many M-B can sell, the point is, if you're an enthusiast of the brand, which I am, then how they get those sales matters more, i.e is it by making an above and beyond product that needs little "fixing" and commands a price close to its MSRP, or one that is meant to just "get by" by whoring out sales and change to a degree where you try and fool people to think that it's an "all new" model for what should be a mere facelift.

I respect a brand that can create a cachet for their products, yes. Mercedes was very good about that in the past, however they're doing everything wrong in that regard with the W212, IMO.

 

I've seen nothing out there supporting the idea that the facelift is fixing something - as we both know nothing was wrong with the original design. I see the W212 facelift as trying to align it with new and upcoming MB design language, as seen on W222, W205, CLA, etc. I don't love the new direction, but the angular W212 design is out, MB is going curvy again, and we can't do anything about it. Some overpaid mucky muck suit is afraid to have a model in the line that doesn't match the rest (it didn't matter in the old days, where a 123 would be sold alongside a 126 or 201 etc). The facelift works well with the wagon, which has a curvy rear to balance it out, but I haven't warmed up to it on the sedan, it works best with the lighting package for sure.

I haven't seen official communication calling it "all new" (in quotes) - there are many new pieces to give marketers room for hype, but I don't see the brand pretending it is a new car. It's a design that hit the road in spring 2009 and has aged very well, IMO.

I didn't look at the TV commercial, which said only 'new 5 series', but 535 and E350 are not directly comparable to me, the E350 seems to fall between 528 and 535, in my eyes. But those details aren't important to me anyway - if BMW is resorting to screamer TV ads about cheap leases, they are no better than MB in that regard. In my area, cheapest printed or aired ad I've seen for an E was $489 for a 58K car, and that was with a big $5500 initial payment.

 

Wow, that payment you saw on the E350 is massive compared to what people are actually getting them for (those who due their homework). I'm getting deals sent to me at low $3's regularly, with low drive off.

Problem is, that the fact that M-B needed to change so much around on the car just to fit their new design language shows just how deep the mess within M-B's design department goes. Most respectable design idioms last for a long time, and get evolutionarily changed, M-B practically invented that, the Porsche 911 is an icon of that, BMW's currently doing that, as is Audi, etc.

M-B all of a sudden started looking like chickens with their heads cut off, IMO, unable to stand by a design or design strategy. The W212 ushered in very boxy forms and corners, something that would usually last a couple of generations before getting phased out, yet they didn't even wait for the next gen to about-face that, they literally grafted on incoherent panels onto the same core design for the facelift.

M-B is changing design directions drastically lately, which is uncharacteristic of them. Before everything was so clean and evolutionary that their cars usually didn't need massive surgery's mid-cycle, just small and subtle facelifts which preserved the dignity of the models, resale of the pre-facelifts, amongst other things.

I would be irate if I still had a pre-facelift W212, M-B prematurely dated the cars. I was irate enough actually, that I got out of mine, but I still think the PRE-facelift W212 is a design masterpiece. However M-B's own actions have affected how I regard the car, because it's clear to me, based on their actions, they don't too highly, or had to cave to some suit who demanded a "Star grille" and other superfluous and premature alterations.

M-B really did try and market it as an "all new car", lots of people were getting duped into thinking that too. Yes, M-B isn't the only ones guilty of that, but they went to great lengths to try and make people think it was an all new bodystyle. That's a clear corporate sign that it was some "emergency" or "necessity" move to me.

 

Product quality has nothing to do with price. Maybe "perceived" quality has something to do with it. I just spent $75K on a car that had a failed temperature sensor within the first 700 miles. Is that quality? Is that what defines the brand? No. Not in my eyes. When I opted to go with a Mercedes I looked at the whole package, what it had to offer regardless of reliability data or the badge on the front because neither of those things matter to me. To me what matters is the features of the car and how nice and plush the interior feels and how connected you can be to the road. If I can get it at a discount that'd be even better!

How do you know what a good business model is? Are you an automotive insider? Are you an economics expert or just a forumite loudmouth who likes to type a lot about their personal opinion? Again, we're back to your opinion backed by absolutely no facts.

The facts speak for themselves. Regardless how you feel about the facelift, based on sales data it worked like a charm. Regardless how i feel about the CLA and the fact that no other manufacturer brings a mid-size wagon stateside the market begs to disagree with me and they eat up the tiny @$$ low quality interior with horrible trunk space and rear visibility while people like drones line up to buy SUVs.

I'm an enthusiast in such that I like to talk about cars, I enjoy reading about the technology that goes into these machines and I'm fascinated with the industry as a whole. But I'm very aware that how I feel about it has very little bearing on what the market really is doing or what I feel the market or the industry should be doing.

And we're back to your opinion which is in stark contrast to what the facts show.

 

Again, the ads you showed have footnotes with "5 available at this price" or "1 available at this price". There is absolutely no data to back your claim that most E-class lease in the mid $300s. And the reason for that is because most E-class will not lease there, not even close, not ever. Anecdotal evidence is not evidence but you obviously fail to see that. Showing ads is one thing, showing actual sales data with real numbers is another. You have yet to produce the latter but sure talk a lot about the former.

Again, it is not a problem. I personally love the new facelift look of the car which gives it an entirely new character. If you're not a fan that's tough break for you. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. As much as some would like to spin the facelift as a massive redesign, based on the parts catalog and the WIS repair manual I can tell you that the two cars are practically identical in their underpinnings and other than the cosmetic changes and the rolling technological advancements such as in the Parktronic, 360 camera view, LED headlights, Distronic+ with steering assist, the advanced safety features there is not a whole lot that differentiates the old one from the new one. These changes might look huge to the untrained eye but are relatively cheap for the manufacturer and more often than not it's not even their R&D cost as it's their component supplier who simply provides them with better stuff to begin with.

Again, this is your opinion. In my opinion the new, uniform look at different sausage sizes is where everyone is going and it makes perfect economic sense. If you can produce differentiating products for practically no additional cost and increase the breadth of your product coverage, by golly do it! In your opinion it devaules the brand but only a brand ***** would be concerned with such stupidity.

New cars and designs come and go. That is how the business operates. I personally think the first W212 with the square dual headlamps looked like poop. I sat in a pre-facelift W212 at CarMax while getting my E90 appraised and I was surprised just how dated the interior felt and looked compared to the facelift model. Would I be upset over it? Probably not as there is not much I could do about it short of selling the car which financially would not be a viable option for me. So in my opinion the original W12 was a turd both inside and outside compared to the new one. Based on sales data the market seems to concur....

 

Of course, that's an offer - anyone who can fog a mirror can do better. I was able to get my 63K+ car for not much more, and very little initial payment, barely above fees. Of course, wanting the Bluetec might have helped as I think the mass market still doesn't like diesel. I might not have got the crazy CA deals, but I didn't get a base car nor have to get it 1000 miles from home. I'm happy even if I didn't get close to 20% off.

The 212 might go down in history as an evolutionary anomaly - things were going to get edgy, but the tide turned before it could catch on. W204 and 221 ween't nearly as angular, and their replacements are rounder. I suspect there was a shakeup in the design department, and those who approved the angular 212 ideal weren't there to approve the 205 and 222. Today, it's going to be hard to have a 10 year run on a high volume sedan like MB was able to do with 123, 124, 126, 201. etc. No BMWs will last as long, either. Apples and oranges to something like a 911.

Irate? I think that's dramatic. I have a pre FL 212, and I have no bad feelings about the update. It was the right car and right deal at the right time. There's an updated face now, oh well, it'd happen eventually. I'm not out to impress strangers by driving the newest thing. I don't think it is too dated either - rear is nearly identical, side is virtually identical, just a new front clip, minor interior details, and tech. I don't know if it matters much to the mass market - for most, they see a grille and a star, and their mind is made up. FWIW, I don't like a star grille on a traditional sedan, either, and if I had a new sport, I'd swap it out.

Is there a credible link out there to this "all new" mantra? I haven't seen it. It's "new" in details, but I haven't seen anyone official touting it as more.

 

Here is the list of actual material changes, everything else is purely cosmetic. Like I said, it's not THAT much. I also added the document that showed the running changes that happened in 2012 and 2011 for your entertainment.

K-A, as always is just talking out of his butt with nothing to back it up...

 

Wait until the entire body re-design comes out, then this W212 will be on a fire sale of $20K off MSRP like they did with the 2009's when the 2010 new body style first hit the lots. 2009 E63's were going for $35K off.

 

I don't think I'd buy one until someone paid me to take it off the lot. $35K off? Pfft! Chump change, I'm sure I can do better!

 

i just picked up another e-class for myself. E550, to go fast on the weekends.

$74,536 MSRP
$225 per month (yay! my razor thin budget is met!) on a closed-end 19 month lease with 1133 miles per year and drive-offs of only $500 (my savings account stays at $2000 total, yay! another big win for me!)

all i had to do is mention this thread, tell them about all the smug forum posters killin' it on the E350 Super Sport aggressive model (yeah son, get some! bring on the civics and altimas!), and show them a picture of K-A's signature and they gave me the special treatment. when i held up that 535i photo the receptionist's panties dropped. MB of Deebagsville. ask for chazz, the internet sales manager (he's one of 8 generic sales people).

 

Best....reply....ever....

 

hah. i guess i forgot to make fun of myself in that. MB of D hooked me up with a gas savings model for only 53 grand. thrifty!

 

Got a better deal than that from Mercedes of Neverland

MSRP - $65,760
Low mileage lease - 150 miles a month
Residual at 85% 24 month
No drive off - they pay me a buyers bonus of $1200
Monthly at $229 plus tax

Salesman said that MB has super secret trunk money of almost 15k

In fact if you wait a few months the discounts will exceed
40%

Wow there are some really great deals out there

Not!!!!

 

I guess the moral of the story is this: a car is only worth what people are willing to pay, MSRP means nothing. I do see ALOT of facelifts on the road these days and I think the facelift took a while to get used to but I like it quite a bit more now.