That ponton, and fintails, and other period models, had something else going for them - build quality. The big American cars were cool looking and robust and fast, but that little ponton was built like a Swiss watch in comparison. The way the doors click shut on my fintail after 50+ years still amazes me. These cars were made with an infinite lifespan, so long as they were maintained. MBs still have high build quality, but so do other cars today - so the brand has to use other strengths, which it can.

If you want a practical classic, a nice ponton/fintail/W108 can be a good deal. The market really undervalues them on this continent. You won't get much more class and quality for the money.

 

I made it five pages through and could not contain myself any longer...

As a preamble, K-A touched on a point that is true.... Coming from a lower relative point the growth seems more drastic. Just like the Toyota boom, this audi explosion comes after a few years subsequently following a massive recall!! My dad told me to watch out for audi as well.... shortly after their fiasco some years back, theyre HUGE!

Why is everyone so up in arms about MB wanting younger buyers? lets be frank, the gla is an ugly piece. However, so is the civic si special edition theyre making, and the crazy people who would buy that car now have an outlet to buy german..... Stylistically speaking of course... And personally, i was originally asked to blog by mbadvisors on the positive/negative of the CLAs effect on the brand.

I strongly spoke out with a no, and spent a few pages ranting on about the same stuff you guys said. Now that being stated, IM a younger mbz buyer. So realistically, I can tell you right now that none of these models entice me one bit. However, the CLA is a radically intelligent design including the shaving off of the headlights to increase turning radius. After its been out for some time I now understand why the C250/CLA250 and the C63/CLA45 both exist at the same time. I dont personally want a CLA but thats mostly due to the ridiculous air vents inside looking like space ship turbines.

I hate all the new MB screens and touch shifters period. As far as the ridiculous high end specialties theyre making, and the spreading out of low end kitchy gimmick ridden design models, I can only hypothesize: maybe the factories are putting out smaller amounts of each model, and using the metal and electricity to put a few test designs through the market... I mean, if youve ever been to the factory in singelfingen, there is a pasture of acres wide cars parked.... ready to ship.... I mean, its magnificent. Theres no reason they couldnt CAD a few more cars and throw them on the machine assembly line, and forego a few extra C,E and E coupes...

I know alot of the newer GL/GLK etc are made in america some places, and other parts of the world; but for me its germany or bust baby.

Audi is expensive for less given to you, and BMW is for tuners/performance enthusiasts/old guys who've "still got it" than MB or Audi; And I remember very well driving on the autobahn and in italy and switzerland, and i will tell you.... Anyone whos driven here understands the left lane means only if youre seriously in a hurry... and if you see a guy coming, MOVE! .... me and my dad experienced over a dozen times being physically blocked by a car in front of us, despite obvious need to move.... HOWEVER, when we followed behind Audis in the left, they moved out of his way like immeeediately... So maybe we were closer to ingolstadt or something =D either way, it was in more places than just germany.... Quite eerie

The one thing i can say in closing is thankfully bluetecs arent littering the streets because I hate driving sosmething 1000000 other people have in my city. id personally be ECSTATIC to see MB at the bottom of sales.

 

Agree on many points (good word to describe the CLA type cars; "kitsch", I'll throw the X4 in there too). And as an enthusiast who's passion for cars has nothing to do with boardroom decisions or stock price, I too find it a good thing if a car I purchase that is expensive to me, has lower sales volume. I'd consider it enticing if there were less MB's on the road.

I also agree on "Germany or bust". I want my German car shipped from Germany, it's part of the experience and certainly factored into the price. The new C is built in America and it would put me off one, even if I was considering one. Regardless of quality, I consider car ownership partly emotional, so it has to stir those emotions.

 

"Agree on many points (good word to describe the CLA type cars; "kitsch", I'll throw the X4 in there too). And as an enthusiast who's passion for cars has nothing to do with boardroom decisions or stock price, I too find it a good thing if a car I purchase that is expensive to me, has lower sales volume. I'd consider it enticing if there were less MB's on the road.

I also agree on "Germany or bust". I want my German car shipped from Germany, it's part of the experience and certainly factored into the price. The new C is built in America and it would put me off one, even if I was considering one. Regardless of quality, I consider car ownership partly emotional, so it has to stir those emotions."

Aha! i was hoping to illicit more of a reaction from you than that.... But dont count the C class out. I do detest the new C model theyre designing, in fact it fits into that space ship design i hate so much that Infinity dipped its toe into a few years ago and failed...

I saw one on the freeway the other day and shuttered immediately.

But dont count the C class out as i said; Ive had 2 of them and drove a 540 for yeaars... The C had a seriously similar feel to the 3 series from the late 90s early 2000s and MBZ spent 5 years planning and developing it. Its chassis is the base for the E coupe/cab and its able to house the monster 6.3 engine too... Isn the first M3 v8 out this year? officially?

I notice that sales for MB and BMW depend on different things. An example of what brings the thread back to the OPs point is: A rapid swing of month to month sales statistics IS related to performance, but how?

In regards to this: BMW buyers want iimmmediate throttle response (hence twin turbo diesels and more hp/tq in each model in each class above the base engines in each model) and they want responsive braking and handling. The extra engine output at lower pedal pressure translates to jerky and sometimes oversensitive power output.

MB buyers often want a gliding smoothe acceleration, and MBZ usually wont give you more power than the chassis and transmission can throw around COMFORTABLY!

I ride very exaltedly in my friend from works M235i and marvel at its speed and features. Quite a machine, and an interior to compete with my E in materials and feel.

So, with that said.... if the ECONOMY gives the types of buyers that prefer A or B (mb, bmw, etc) styles of driving, a boom in their business, they make more money, they buy more cars..

Doctors or psychiatrist? lets say they get a boom in business, more mbz.

Surgeons and Stock brokers? lets say they get a boom in business, more bmw...

Random examples, but that could model a reason why that particular type of car driving style outsold another; irrespective of price... lets face it, 52k versus 58k is minimal in a monthly purchase installment.... Not the swaying difference for most of us right? its whether weve got the cash to spend =D

 

52K to 58K is not minimal when we are talking average transaction price. It means that MB sells a lot more expensive cars than BMW since the volume difference is negligible YTD (14,000 units)

K-A seems to think that MB's volume is made up from all their lower priced cars. Reality is that BMW's strong models are the cheaper ones ie: 2 and 3 series are their bread and butter in North America.

Sales will continue to grow at MB as younger buyers discover they can afford these new entry level models. I love those small cars especially the CLA 4M. The new C is now a much bigger car having gained 4" and is now moving into entry level premium as opposed to entry level MB.

The GLA 4M is another entry model that will compete well in that small suv segment with it's bold style that is sure to appeal to young family people.

 

If "bold" means possibly the ugliest thing to ever come out if Germany....

Then yes, the GLA is bold. I thought the GLK was bad enough. I don't get why people always cover up "goofy, immature designs" with "youthful". Classic marketing mishap. Audi rules the affluent young market and they do it with understated, classy, timeless designs, not garish kitsch. Young people can have mature and elegant taste too, and Audi had proved that.

And MB's average transaction price has declined exactly because they continue to move to being a brand who's volume increasingly consists of lower priced cars, relative to before. That's just what's happening and it's not just an opinion or observation. They are also clearly making an effort to retain prime status at the top.

BMW and Mercedes should be proud. Between the GLK and the X4, they're essentially competing in the ugliest created segment in the industry. But hey, anything to one up each other in sales while letting it help sacrifice what made them desirable to begin with. I drove a CLA and honestly can't find a thing about it that is superior to some basic economy cars that cost less. It has come in last place to lesser priced cars in tests as well. And IMO the styling is too goofy and gimmicky for a Mercedes.

And this is the issue. It appears that their race to sales DOES sacrifice quality as the CLA has no redeeming Benz qualities. It's a cash grab, a marketing decision, and that's where the race to go "downmarket" imo hurts a brand like Mercedes, pure dilution (EDIT: Oh, and it also has seemingly helped drag M-B's recent quality ratings from amongst the top to something like #26 in rapid time, again contributing to my point about it potentially having long term harmful effects to the brand value). At least BMW's 2 Series is an incredibly fun car, RWD with engineering merits, with a place and clear intent within the brands lineup.

 

The current Audi 'tombstone' front end defines 'garish kitsch ! No other German car comes close to this over styled, in your face front end !

As for Audi's 'understated, classy, timeless designs', you think this applies to the Audi Q7 ??? You can't be serious ! This SUV is one of the ugliest vehicles on the planet !!!

 

I'll agree on their fronts. However, IMO they somehow pull off garish in the sense where everyone else has tried to copy their effect (including M-B). Audi's otherwise are the more understated of the other two, and the market responds well to it (yet Mercedes and BMW to some extents feel the desire to pander in the most low-common-denominator marketing way when trying to gain "younger buyers", i.e immature, boy-racer-y designs).

Q7 is ugly indeed, and believe me I don't like many Audi's, they're not totally my thing. Though I respect their more Germanic bauhaus designs as some of their competitors have let go of that effect for more crazy/fad-ish lines and overall gimmicks.

I'd get an A3 over a CLA without hesitation, personally.

 

Not that it is German, but Lexus takes the cake in this category.

Nope, the 5GT and the X6 has it beat.

 

OK, these two beasts are worse !!!

 

MB ranking #26 in quality and this coming from the CLA is sourced from where?

Regarding boy-racer styles, and classic timeless hyperbole, you've seen S and RS series Audi cars before, right? Driven and equipped properly, they scream "dbag" as loudly as the most garish M car.


[QUOTE=K-A;6239697]

(EDIT: Oh, and it also has seemingly helped drag M-B's recent quality ratings from amongst the top to something like #26 in rapid time, again contributing to my point about it potentially having long term harmful effects to the brand value).

 

Yeah, X6 might be the biggest piece of kitsch on the road, makes a GLA look like a 560 SEC.

I do agree about the made in Germany positive stigma - when I see the W205, I don't know if I can yet accept a 4cyl 50K+ car that is built in Alabama. But that's probably a traditionalist thing, doesn't seem to hurt sales, especially in the soft roaders that perpetually fly off the lots. Luckily, it's apparently a very good car, and has the TT and hopefully an upcoming diesel to redeem it even more.

 

I couldn't agree more. My standard for the very definition of quality is each and every aspect of my Dad's 180 ponton. The quality of it was in it's own right absolutely beautiful.

 

Yes, a C250 Bluetec sedan and wagon are slated for 1st quarter of 2016.

The twin turbo 2.1L diesel is one terrific engine with virtually no turbo lag. My E250BT 4M actually feels faster in city driving situations compared to the single turbo V6 diesel in the E350BT.

 

And if the car was taken care of and still exists, the doors still click shut and everything lines up to spec. Those cars were little jewels. I think that's something MB can do, bring back some of that amazing build and material quality - I know they try.

 

The 2.1 in the C would be a winner (as it is in ROW) - it'd be fast yet be able to hit 50mpg in calm highway driving. If we get a C250 diesel 4matic wagon, I might just custom build one and keep it awhile, rather than lease to avoid emotional attachment. I hope the wagon comes to Murka, but I guess that's something for a different forum.

I had a Bluetec but am now in a gasser due to a better deal - I miss the torque, even with 50% more hp.

 

I agree about the C. My personal tastes on its drive and aesthetic aside (just not too into it), it's a great comfortable premium commuter sedan. Problem is, as you said; 4 cylinder, built in America, yet still priced like a German import at easily over $50k for such a package. People buy suits from Italy, they want it imported from Italy. Even if the quality if a U.S crafted Italian suit is "similar", the brands premium you're paying is largely partially where it's coming from. The C is now made in Alabama and has a much higher American parts to German parts content ratio (there are now actually more American parts than German parts) than any C before it, or any German made MB. Hardly exotic for us Americans. It appears the cost savings of doing so aren't being passed onto the consumer.

LOL on the 560 SEC comment. High praise, but the X6 is sure ugly enough to give even the most offensive opponent a linkage there (though IMO the new X6 is less offensive than the first one). To me, the GLA, X6, X4, Aztek, 5 GT, all belong in the same reprehensible design group. Hopefully that group resides in a future junkyard somewhere so the future of humanity can be saved from such tasteless visuals.

 

Indeed, the US made C is about profit margin - more expensive German labor and shipping are a significant amount, even relative to a higher priced car. No savings are passed down. Maybe a way to recoup R&D costs more quickly. The quality might be just as good, but the "made in Germany" idea is special to traditionalists. It might not last forever in the brave new world though, where racing towards a bottom (of input costs, anyway, and maybe more) is the law of the land - sooner or later, more passenger cars will probably be built in NA, that factory has room to expand. BMW and VWAG have huge operations in the US too, it's just a matter of time.

I think the faux-butch crossover is the volume fad of the foreseeable future - GLA might do well in it. The expensive brash fastback thing will live as a small niche, and that's not a bad thing.

 

+1 What's a soft roader?

 

Yeah I too though the C would be less expensive since it is built here, but those savings are likely tied up in the interior which is several grades above the old car. The new 3.0L turbo V6 is new also, but still 40K to start? It needs more standard equipment IMO. Time will tell how it does sales wise. We have to see what the numbers are once all the W204s are cleared out, if they're still be considered in these monthly sales reports?

M

 

SUVs that looked rugged and offroadish, but can't handle much more than a muddy soccer field. That is what most of so called SUVs are today IMO. Real suvs are the G, LX570, Land Cruiser, 4 Runner, Land Rovers, Wrangers etc, vehicles that can anywhere anytime. Sure a GLA or X3 will handle 99% of what most buyers will ever encounter, but try following a Land Cruiser or G550 off road in one, its going to be tough if not impossible.


M

 

Absolutely true. The American Southern states have state and local governments that are vehemently anti-union while bending over backwards to give taxpayer funded benefits to large corporations with little regulation. These states also are anti-worker and favor low wages and low benefits (if any). More companies will move or increase production here.

 

I'll also await to see if M-B starts blowing out W205's with huge discounts in quicker than usual time. That will be a sign as to how they'll react to the whatever the markets reaction to the cars pricing is.

M-B seem to be "trying" to go back to their old ways of high prices (simply being premium product) and making the Sports Package extra cost again (a good thing as it's necessary for a premium brand to maintain exclusivity factors, enthusiast-centric choices and variation in order to retain premium presence). It seems the W204/W212/etc. gens with their "free sports package/crazy incentives" were designated to get fleet-like volume and people into the "ecosystem" in the U.S. Now they seem to be trying to position the W205 as more of a premium/high margin product again, with the higher price, aesthetic options now costing money instead of being "given to you", etc.

What remains to be seen is how firm they'll hold on this. They could have damaged their ability to continue to do this in the C/E segments as a side effect to their strategy could easily have made the market take the deals for granted and not value those lines as high in price as they did before.

They have the ability to do this more now, as the A Class offsprings will start to take up more volume. But at a certain point, IF those models start eating into the upper models sales by way of MBUSA trying to up prices on the C/E/etc. (and if they try to cease the big discounting) then MBUSA will obviously find that a negative trend in many ways, especially perceived brand value, and will probably have to start the big discounts again (if they ever stop it).

I drove a C300 with no Sports Package, and the sticker was just over $51K, which shocked me especially being that it wasn't even manufactured or shipped from Germany. It'll be interesting to see how the market reacts to this. I for one hope MBUSA remain more firm than before, and sacrifice volume sales for the higher margins this will bring. IMO that will up Mercedes' perceived value as a luxury brand dramatically, especially in light of the more recent downmarket offerings.

 

Why on earth would anyone have any type of reaction to a 51K C-Class that isn't built here when all of the SUVs MB sells here (except the G) are built right here also and they can cost twice that? The vast majority of buyers don't care where the car is built, only a small few on mesg boards care about such things.

Mercedes isn't going to give up volume to chase some made up image of what someone thinks they should be.

M

 

People will care if they're spending that kind of money, it's just that most people won't know where it's built. If they're getting the car at a great deal, they won't care so much. Someone spending $100K on an S Class might care more, if he/she knows.

The shock is that it's a seemingly not-so-well equipped C Class, that's built in the U.S, with a 4 cylinder.

A major way that M-B maintains volume is by marketing and positioning themselves as a premium brand, which is how they fetch brand premiums. If, say, they try and raise prices, even in leu of cutting costs by building in America, etc. and the market doesn't respond well to that, instead choosing lower priced variations or being accustomed to the lower market pricing of the previous generation/s, that's simply a decision they'd have to make (try and make more money per car, or chase volume).

What I don't get is why they don't just lower the MSRP outright and hold more firm to their updated pricing structure, if especially the new pricing structure proves not to hold. I guess to them, it works because it makes people think they're getting a "deal" which can spur sales and gives them the opportunity to make extra off of some sucker who pays closer to MSRP. But it doesn't help market value of the cars, namely in resale. Though, M-B are so lease-centric that that's obviously of lesser concern to them.