Are we next? Diesel tweaking
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Are we next? Diesel tweaking
I've read that after the VW diesel disaster the government is going to take a hard look at all the diesel manufacturers. Does anybody think there is any chance that MB diesels have a similar tweak to fool emissions testing? I hope not but my mileage is so good that it makes me wonder.
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You can bet they will leave no stone un-turned and check all manufacturers for these secret codes.
The market hammered all auto manufacturers on this news including Daimler AG, which lost 6.5% today alone.
The market hammered all auto manufacturers on this news including Daimler AG, which lost 6.5% today alone.
Last edited by RA72825; Sep 22, 2015 at 09:17 PM.
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I'm sure they will look closely at all German diesel vehicles as they often use same suppliers. Although this may have been a strictly inhouse VW thing.
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This will be interesting to watch develop. I think I heard on NPR that the mayor of Paris wants the city to be diesel free due to pollution problems. There was some indication that European diesels are not as clean as US but more efficient. Apparently the process used by cleaner diesels is less efficient... and maybe not as clean as once thought at least as VW is concerned.
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I know I'm in the minority, but the problem wasn't with the cars it was with the test. The cars ECU can adapt to outsmart the test - then the test needs improved to better simulate real driving.
I'm not shocked VW outsmarted the EPA. It sounds like they essentially used the lack of steering input to trigger the ECO test mode. Hopefully these cars came with attention assist standard.
I wouldn't want whatever fix VW comes up with for these cars either.
^^ TheFisch from what I read NOx isn't as tightly regulated in EU as it is here (driven by California emmisions standards to prevent smog). You can cut NOx (say by retarding timing), but often at the cost of efficiency, power, and/or reliability.
I had a 2000 Jetta TDI (which wasn't California Compliant and weren't sold there new) from 2000-2006 and it had an Exhaust Gas Recirculation system (allowing exhaust gas back into the intake) on it to lower NOx. It was notorious for clogging with soot (reducing power and gas milage). I pulled the intake manifold after 30000 miles and it was caked with tar and soot. I cleaned it and got a major power increase. Some people with deactivated the system.
I'm not shocked VW outsmarted the EPA. It sounds like they essentially used the lack of steering input to trigger the ECO test mode. Hopefully these cars came with attention assist standard.
I wouldn't want whatever fix VW comes up with for these cars either.
^^ TheFisch from what I read NOx isn't as tightly regulated in EU as it is here (driven by California emmisions standards to prevent smog). You can cut NOx (say by retarding timing), but often at the cost of efficiency, power, and/or reliability.
I had a 2000 Jetta TDI (which wasn't California Compliant and weren't sold there new) from 2000-2006 and it had an Exhaust Gas Recirculation system (allowing exhaust gas back into the intake) on it to lower NOx. It was notorious for clogging with soot (reducing power and gas milage). I pulled the intake manifold after 30000 miles and it was caked with tar and soot. I cleaned it and got a major power increase. Some people with deactivated the system.
Last edited by rediesel; Sep 23, 2015 at 01:14 PM.
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I don't think this scandal will affect MB and BMW. VW and Audi use diesel technology without AdBlue urea and that is why they tweaked the software. At least that is what I've read in some article.
Last edited by aeggroup; Sep 23, 2015 at 11:15 AM.
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I just read about it and it's not even all VW/Audi models that are affected. Like you said it's only the models without the urea tank and that is only ~500k US cars according to the EPA. The 11 million car figure came from VW which may mean they used the same technique on non-US cars. Obivously, it would suck to have one of these affected cars now. In addition to backlash to VW/Audi as a whole even on non-diesels, I suspect there will be some general diesel backlash for all brands over this as not everyone understands the issue.
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Latest I've seen is that the BMW X-3 diesel may have also failed.
Even worse, the standards are even higher in Europe and now the governments there are beginning to suspect they need to take action against diesel manufacturers.
Even worse, the standards are even higher in Europe and now the governments there are beginning to suspect they need to take action against diesel manufacturers.
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(P.S. Go Bulldogs!)
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Daimler's emphatic denial of defeat devices
I've read that after the VW diesel disaster the government is going to take a hard look at all the diesel manufacturers. Does anybody think there is any chance that MB diesels have a similar tweak to fool emissions testing? I hope not but my mileage is so good that it makes me wonder.
"Daimler AG once again clearly sates that:
We categorically deny the accusation of manipulating emission tests regarding our vehicles. A defeat device, a function which illegitimately reduces emissions during testing, has NEVER been and will never be used @ Daimler. This holds true for both diesel and petrol engines. Our engines meet and adhere to every legal requirement."
"The technical programming of our engines adheres to all legal requirements."
"We work closely and constructively with the responsible authorities in Germany, Europe and the United States and will willingly provide any vehicle for testing."
Source for the above quote: Daimler, Global Media Site
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The current emissions standards for diesel in Europe are lower than the standards for the USA/Canada (Bin2 Tier5). That's why the HP ratings for the Euro versions of the 4 and 6 cylinder diesels are higher than for the North American versions.
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rediesel - I work for a supplier to the global auto industry, and receive many industry-related news feed daily. As I distill the reports on this issue, it does not seem that the "defeat device" relies on lack of steering input to activate. As I understand it, the ECU assumes it is being tested whenever it senses that the front (or drive) wheels are moving when the other axle/wheels are not. So, it knows the car is on a dynamometer and turns the full emission control system on. Once it senses that all four wheels are again underway, it returns to its default (defeat) parameters. Pretty clever, but dishonest nonetheless.
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I think this entire scandal has been incorrectly framed. This is not something unique to diesel engines - it's something unique to a specific engine used by VW.
VW claimed that they could achieve low (SCR-like) emissions levels without using DEF - we now know this to be a farce. This same issue can't, by definition spread to other diesel manufacturers and engine types that use diesel exhaust fluid.
We could have an entire separate discussion about how environmental authorities allow manufacturers to self-declare their emission and mileage numbers, and how that may or may not be a smart thing to do - but that discussion applies equally to all powertrain types - gas, electric, whatever - they all get to say what their numbers are.
All this talk of diesel as a fuel type being discredited is completely unjustified. Hyundai and other manufacturers have been caught misrepresenting environmental performance of their gasoline engines in the past few years and no one claimed it to be the death blow for gasoline powered cars.
VW claimed that they could achieve low (SCR-like) emissions levels without using DEF - we now know this to be a farce. This same issue can't, by definition spread to other diesel manufacturers and engine types that use diesel exhaust fluid.
We could have an entire separate discussion about how environmental authorities allow manufacturers to self-declare their emission and mileage numbers, and how that may or may not be a smart thing to do - but that discussion applies equally to all powertrain types - gas, electric, whatever - they all get to say what their numbers are.
All this talk of diesel as a fuel type being discredited is completely unjustified. Hyundai and other manufacturers have been caught misrepresenting environmental performance of their gasoline engines in the past few years and no one claimed it to be the death blow for gasoline powered cars.
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Prior to 2015, most VW diesel 4 cylinder models were not equipped with a urea system. For these cars, the challenge for VW to render any of them compliant may well be impossible. For example, the installation of the urea system into the MKVII Golf (MY2015) required a completely revised rear suspension and smaller rear brake discs, plus the urea tank with its complex plumbing and wiring. It would be next to impossible to retrofit this system into pre-MY2015 Golfs/Jettas.
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How stupid can their "Truth in engineering" engineers be...!!!???!!! Did they really think nobody never find out.
No VW owned car make for me ever again.
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MB was already investigated-and came out unscathed. Do any of you think that VW who owns manufacturing part divisions of Audi, BMW, Porsche, and Volvo would not go out and purchase a MB to test and see if MB was also cheating-you damn right they would and did this when MB offered them the same package that they offered everyone above as Arrie mentioned, rather than pay the piper they cheated to acquire and take more than their fair market share-so now what is their market share worth-way less than MB's, and that is fact that can now be taken to the bank. MB diesels will come out of this just fine-they have more MB's in California than you can shake a stick at-and California has always been the toughest state Emissions wise since the mid-seventies, they are the !!@$en EPA.
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It's such a catch 22..... make a car less fuel efficient and consume more resources to be compliant while we worry about the depletion of fuel sources on the planet....
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VW has said they will 'refit' the cars to make them compliant. I wonder what that means - retrofitting an Adblue system can't be easy, and I doubt VW owners will like their cars always running in 'testing mode'.
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If you look at any vehicles manufacturers description for vehicles sold in North America there are two emissions (EPA) descriptions, vehicles rated for California and all others, albeit it Canada or the other 49, since around late 80's most of the other 49 states and even Canada adopted California's EPA guidelines to ensure they receive Federal dollars for enforcement of the Clean Air Act provided for and mandated by the EPA's Clean Air Act of 1970 that was revised in 1990 creating stricter guidelines to get those dollars.
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An open letter from the heads of Daimler:
"Dear Colleagues,
The "diesel affair" has dominated the media for the past two weeks, and it has naturally been the subject of lively discussion also amongst the workforce. Let us therefore say plainly and simply: Our vehicles are not manipulated and have not been manipulated in the past!
We have never used a so-called "defeat device" – a function that improperly restricts the effectiveness of exhaust-gas aftertreatment. That applies to all of our diesel and gasoline engines worldwide. We comply with applicable laws and regulations and vigorously reject any accusations to the contrary.
We share the indignation about the use of unlawful means to manipulate emission tests, but we defend ourselves against any tendency to cast suspicions of deception on our company. That is exactly what happens when other issues (such as the difference due to the laws of physics between standard fuel consumption and real fuel consumption) are mixed up with unlawful conduct, leading to accusations of deception against the entire automobile industry.
Quite the contrary is true, that we support the preparation of new laws at the European level that should specify more realistic test procedures. We cooperate openly, trustfully and constructively with the responsible authorities, as we have done for many years now, by the way.
Please pass on this information actively. The message is crystal clear: We do not manipulate!
Thank you and best regards,
Dieter Zetsche Wolfgang Bernhard Christine Hohmann-Dennhardt Ola Källenius
Wilfried Porth Hubertus Troska Bodo Uebber Thomas Weber"
"Dear Colleagues,
The "diesel affair" has dominated the media for the past two weeks, and it has naturally been the subject of lively discussion also amongst the workforce. Let us therefore say plainly and simply: Our vehicles are not manipulated and have not been manipulated in the past!
We have never used a so-called "defeat device" – a function that improperly restricts the effectiveness of exhaust-gas aftertreatment. That applies to all of our diesel and gasoline engines worldwide. We comply with applicable laws and regulations and vigorously reject any accusations to the contrary.
We share the indignation about the use of unlawful means to manipulate emission tests, but we defend ourselves against any tendency to cast suspicions of deception on our company. That is exactly what happens when other issues (such as the difference due to the laws of physics between standard fuel consumption and real fuel consumption) are mixed up with unlawful conduct, leading to accusations of deception against the entire automobile industry.
Quite the contrary is true, that we support the preparation of new laws at the European level that should specify more realistic test procedures. We cooperate openly, trustfully and constructively with the responsible authorities, as we have done for many years now, by the way.
Please pass on this information actively. The message is crystal clear: We do not manipulate!
Thank you and best regards,
Dieter Zetsche Wolfgang Bernhard Christine Hohmann-Dennhardt Ola Källenius
Wilfried Porth Hubertus Troska Bodo Uebber Thomas Weber"
