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Ever since I got this car in february last year I could hear a light knocking sound coming from the bank 1 area. Yesterday when I looked inside cylinders 2 and 3 with the endoscope cam I found this:
Cylinder 3
Cylinder 3
Cylinder 2
Cylinder 3
From what I've been researching around the forum so far it seems like this falls under early stages of the LI03.10-P-052286 SEPT11 TSB. There was something about scored cylinder walls in the TSB, but I couldn't find any pictures to compare with mine. The knocking starts after the oil temp gets over 60 C and doesn't go away after that while idling. It isn't audible from the cabin and goes away when engine RPM goes over 1000.
So far there is no excessive oil consumption, no noticeable loss in power, no traces of excessive blow by in the oil ( per last Blackstone oil analysis) and the sound hasn't gotten any worse in the past year. I've yet to do a compression check but at this point I don't think it's necessary.
If I was to tackle this I would probably need a new block, but I couldn't find anything acceptable online and MB doesn't have them in stock so that's not an option.
I'd appreciate any thoughts or info from anyone who dealt with this in the past or knows anything about it. Right now I'm very disappointed with MB, it seems like they have been screwing up their V8s and V6s of the past decade.
I assume root cause is either or combination of defective wrist pin machining and piston sizing causing the piston to rock?
At any rate it appears you've caught this at an early stage so based on the pics I would consider a rehone of the cylinders before a rebore. I don't really see heavy scoring. Knowing you are detailed in your analysis, you would of course check the bores dimensionally to verify. Unless for some reason you cannot do a mild cylinder cleanup or minimal rebore on MB block, it seems that this can be repaired at a moderate DIY cost.
I assume root cause is either or combination of defective wrist pin machining and piston sizing causing the piston to rock?
At any rate it appears you've caught this at an early stage so based on the pics I would consider a rehone of the cylinders before a rebore. I don't really see heavy scoring. Knowing you are detailed in your analysis, you would of course check the bores dimensionally to verify. Unless for some reason you cannot do a mild cylinder cleanup or minimal rebore on MB block, it seems that this can be repaired at a moderate DIY cost.
I'm guessing it's the oil scraper ring, but won't know until I take a look at the piston skirt. No aluminum shavings in the oil would point at the ring as well. Seems like it was a clean, one take scrape ( maybe after an overheating incident or heavy acceleration before proper engine warm up combined with some sort of excessive vibration).
I was thinking about that too, but I don't know any shop which will treat an alusil coated block. It doesn't seem like anyone has done this before either, there are no forum posts about it which makes me think there was a good reason MB preferred to replace the whole engine rather than honing. I'm not giving up yet, I'll do some more research these days. Thank you for your input!
MB builds their engines very well, but sometimes ops happen.
I had different situation on my diesel 642 engine, when it suck some water from street puddle.
It bend #6 connecting rod and the engine was shaking a bit.
Being occupy by interstate moving at the time, I drove the car with it for over 3000 miles and the engine performed still well, with slight drop in mpg.
Yet after that the bend rod gave up and "showed outside".
Meaning there is limit to everything. Start saving money for engine overhaul.
MB builds their engines very well, but sometimes ops happen.
I had different situation on my diesel 642 engine, when it suck some water from street puddle.
It bend #6 connecting rod and the engine was shaking a bit.
Being occupy by interstate moving at the time, I drove the car with it for over 3000 miles and the engine performed still well, with slight drop in mpg.
Yet after that the bend rod gave up and "showed outside".
Meaning there is limit to everything. Start saving money for engine overhaul.
It seems like they've been having more catastrophical failures lately ( balance shaft on the m272, timing gear sprockets on the m273, crankshaft bearings on the m276, rod bearing issues on some V6 and V8 models, wrist pin tolerance issues, etc.). The only reliable engines seem to be the dizeasels, mostly because taxi drivers in Europe use them and they have to be engineered more carefully, but I'm not impressed with their non AMG V8s or the regular V6s.
It's funny you mentioned the water intrusion issue you had, there's a guy on youtube who leased a 2017 C63S AMG, he drove it through a rain storm and hidrolocked his engine. They wanted 81k$ for a new engine, so his insurance company had to deem a brand new car a total loss and get him a new one. I don't care what the conditions are, if I can't drive my car when it's raining, that to me is a gross engineering failure which makes their "the best or nothing" slogan nothing more than an empty, ironical phrase. Here's the video so you can understand what I'm talking about :
. There are follow up videos , he shares the whole interaction process with the insurance company and his dealership. Pay attention to the other issues he had with his brand new car,before the engine failure and tell me what you think.
I know you get a little nostalgic about MB reliability, but as of late that's a long gone quality of our favorite brand. I bought an MB because of stories most older guys were telling about how reliable and refined they were back in the day, but it's definitely not the case anymore.
I think it's unnaceptable that a 98k mile car needs engine overhauling when it's only been serviced at the dealership, paid the premiums for OE parts and not pushed very hard at all. I reached 6k RPM maybe 5 times in 1 year and the previous owner was a 60 something year old guy who listened to soft jazz music, so I doubt he thrashed it either.
Also, the "sometimes ops happen" attitude is not something I will ever accept. If it was a cheap POS I would understand and blame it on poor quality control, but in this case it's a 70k $ car with a big, lazy, underworked V8, I think it should last for more than 100K miles.
I don't know about fixing it, it seems like the alusil coating is not something most shops want to touch. I'm actually considering getting a CRV or the 2018 Tiguan( test drove it yesterday, that engine and tranny combo is atrocious), the wife would be happy I spend more time with her and not in the garage with sickly Gunther.
Fact is that with US labor costs, rebuilding several years old engine will cost more than car value. This is good time to take this car for trade-in
I was looking for 7 months for rebuild diesel and finally bought one from UK.
Good seller charged me about $250 shipping, where often US seller want more for domestic shipping.
Talking about water intrusion, I compared W211 and W212.
W211 have air intakes about 1/2 the way up radiator height and facing forward, so when you see water reaching the hood (what doesn't take much as I was just rolling via the puddle) - the engine is flooded.
W212 has air inlet on top of radiator mount and it allows water to go sideways before entering the air ducting.
My conclusion is that I was not the only one having engine flooded in stupid situation.
Ever since I got this car in february last year I could hear a light knocking sound coming from the bank 1 area.
If within production range, contact MBUSA to request goodwill repair since bulletin documents defective parts were installed at production. Doesn’t hurt to ask. Check PM.
Last edited by konigstiger; 02-17-2018 at 01:15 PM.
I saw that youtube vlog and thought it was beyond amazing that a large puddle would cause that catastrophic damage.
I didn't know about the Alusil coating, so I poked around for a better understanding. I see where K has suggested a goodwill contribution from MB for block replacement. But I wonder (maybe a crazy idea) if standard rebore sleeves could be installed with of course the appropriate pistons/rings. We've done this on a couple of regular old GM engines with good long-term results but I have no idea if this is feasible for this MB block or there is some additional magic incorporated into the block that would not allow this. Or what the overall cost impact would be.
Interesting topic.
From the internet, if anyone has interest. This relates primarily to Porsche/VW cylinders/jugs but I could glean some info regarding the coating itself.
Nikasil vs Alusil Cylinders - In 1973 Porsche introduced a new type of cylinder used on the 911 2.7 Carrera RS. Engineered by German manufacturer Mahle, Nikasil cylinders are manufactured out of a dense, aluminum alloy that is centrifugally cast in a mold. The cylinder bore is then electroplated with a very thin layer of nickel-silicon carbide. Originally designed and used on the venerable 1971 917, these cylinders provide several unique advantages over the older-style ones. The primary advantage is that the micro-thin layer is extremely durable, and allows for thinner cylinder wall thickness as a result. As a result, the piston bores can be enlarged without changing the original cylinder head stud bolt pattern. In addition, the reduced friction along the cylinder walls combined with the surface properties of the nickel-silicon coating creates a tighter seal against the cylinder. The result is a slight increase in overall horsepower, due to the increased efficiency. These Nikasil cylinders are the most durable of any of the production cylinders and are highly sought after for engine rebuilds. These cylinders can be retrofitted to the earlier cars, however, you will need to install the updated piston squirters in to your early case (1970 and earlier) if it doesn’t already have them. The piston squirters lower the piston crown temperatures so that you can run the close clearances used by Nikasil or Alusil pistons and cylinders. It’s also important to note that Mahle makes Nikasil pistons and cylinders for 2.2L and 2.4L engines.
In 1974, Porsche introduced the Alusil cylinders, manufactured by Kolbenschmidt. The Alusil cylinders were primarily used as a less-expensive alternative to the Nikasil cylinders. These cylinders are manufactured out of a special 390 eutectic aluminum silicon alloy, and are used with a special iron-plated, ferrocoat piston. Like the Nikasil cylinders, they are plated with a special coating on inside bore. This coating is electrically etched to leave a microscopic layer of silicon particles exposed on the cylinder wall. The iron-plated piston and the silicon-plated cylinder walls operated together to create a durable dual-surface. In addition, the Alusil cylinders have the same thin-wall construction of the Nikasil cylinders, meaning that they too can maintain the same head-stud spacing pattern.
So what are the main differences between all of the available pistons and cylinders? The early biral cylinders can be honed and reused just like other cast-iron cylinders on non-Porsche cars. Starting in 1974, Porsche mixed and matched the Alusil and Nikasil sets, so it’s really the luck of the draw as to which set you have in your car. For the most part, Porsche used mostly Alusil in the 2.7L and 3.0L engines because of the reduced cost of production. The Alusil cylinders, unfortunately, cannot be honed. The honing process destroys the etching layer, and renders them useless. In fact, a general rule of thumb is that the Alusil cylinders are a one-time-use product, and should not be used again if the engine is rebuilt.
Alusil cylinders cannot be reliably reringed. This indeed is a common misconception in some Porsche circles. There are no replacement rings available that are specifically designed for the Alusil cylinders. Of course, throwing out your current pistons and cylinders can lead to the large expense of new ones, so a lot of people reuse them anyway. In some cases, the new set of rings seat fine, and they indeed can be reused successfully. However, you cannot hone these cylinders, nor predict whether the rings will indeed seat properly. The correct action to take is to purchase new pistons and cylinders, otherwise you may be tearing down your engine again in less than a mere 1000 miles. These Alusil cylinders typically have a ‘KS’ Kolbenschmidt logo cast into their base, although for a time, Mahle also made Alusil cylinders. The coating on the Alusil cylinders is non magnetic, so you should be able to tell the difference with a simple refrigerator magnet.
If you are tearing apart your engine for reasons other than worn out rings or valve guides, then you might opt to reuse your Alusil cylinders. This would be the case, for example, if you were tearing down your engine to replace broken or pulled head studs. If this is the case, I would recommend that you take your pistons and cylinders off of the engine, put them high up on a shelf, and don’t touch them until you are ready to reassemble. Don’t pull the pistons out of the cylinders and don’t dislodge or disturb the rings. Of course, you are taking a risk here that you will have worn rings in the near future. However, if your engine is a 3.0L, with 100K on the odometer, then there is a good chance that you can get 100,000 additional miles or more out of your set of rings, cylinders and pistons. I don’t necessarily recommend playing the odds like this, but if you’re rebuilding a good running engine with excellent leak-down numbers for the purpose of replacing head studs or some other non-wear problem, then it might be a good bet.
The Nikasil cylinders can indeed be honed and reused. They typically have a ‘MAHLE’ stamp on the lower side of the cylinder. The nickel-carbide surface needs to be lightly honed with a special silica impregnated tool, or what is commonly known as a grape or flex hone. The surface properties are too hard for normal tool steel honing machines. The Nikasil coating will be ever so slightly magnetic when you place a magnet next to it. The honing process is performed using special tools – either a specific tool designed to hone the cylinders, or a grape hone. Either way, you should only have an expert familiar with the Nikasil cylinders perform the honing process.
The repair/rebuild projects are economically limited.
Years ago in Poland, I own Skoda.
That rear-engine 4-banger had wet sleeves and you could by whole kit sleeves/piston/rings for very low price.
I did the whole rebuild in less than 1 day on my driveway -all with no power tools. .
Than 40,000 km later I had to do it again as using Skoda for trailer hauling wear them out, but that's another story.
Polish enthusiast still buy "rust buckets" in Germany and spend the time to reweld the panels.
That makes sense where people work for $4/hr and MB shops charge less than $10/hr.
Now don't drool on keyboards.
I saw that youtube vlog and thought it was beyond amazing that a large puddle would cause that catastrophic damage.
I didn't know about the Alusil coating, so I poked around for a better understanding. I see where K has suggested a goodwill contribution from MB for block replacement. But I wonder (maybe a crazy idea) if standard rebore sleeves could be installed with of course the appropriate pistons/rings. We've done this on a couple of regular old GM engines with good long-term results but I have no idea if this is feasible for this MB block or there is some additional magic incorporated into the block that would not allow this. Or what the overall cost impact would be.
Interesting topic.
From the internet, if anyone has interest. This relates primarily to Porsche/VW cylinders/jugs but I could glean some info regarding the coating itself.
Nikasil vs Alusil Cylinders - In 1973 Porsche introduced a new type of cylinder used on the 911 2.7 Carrera RS. Engineered by German manufacturer Mahle, Nikasil cylinders are manufactured out of a dense, aluminum alloy that is centrifugally cast in a mold. The cylinder bore is then electroplated with a very thin layer of nickel-silicon carbide. Originally designed and used on the venerable 1971 917, these cylinders provide several unique advantages over the older-style ones. The primary advantage is that the micro-thin layer is extremely durable, and allows for thinner cylinder wall thickness as a result. As a result, the piston bores can be enlarged without changing the original cylinder head stud bolt pattern. In addition, the reduced friction along the cylinder walls combined with the surface properties of the nickel-silicon coating creates a tighter seal against the cylinder. The result is a slight increase in overall horsepower, due to the increased efficiency. These Nikasil cylinders are the most durable of any of the production cylinders and are highly sought after for engine rebuilds. These cylinders can be retrofitted to the earlier cars, however, you will need to install the updated piston squirters in to your early case (1970 and earlier) if it doesn’t already have them. The piston squirters lower the piston crown temperatures so that you can run the close clearances used by Nikasil or Alusil pistons and cylinders. It’s also important to note that Mahle makes Nikasil pistons and cylinders for 2.2L and 2.4L engines.
In 1974, Porsche introduced the Alusil cylinders, manufactured by Kolbenschmidt. The Alusil cylinders were primarily used as a less-expensive alternative to the Nikasil cylinders. These cylinders are manufactured out of a special 390 eutectic aluminum silicon alloy, and are used with a special iron-plated, ferrocoat piston. Like the Nikasil cylinders, they are plated with a special coating on inside bore. This coating is electrically etched to leave a microscopic layer of silicon particles exposed on the cylinder wall. The iron-plated piston and the silicon-plated cylinder walls operated together to create a durable dual-surface. In addition, the Alusil cylinders have the same thin-wall construction of the Nikasil cylinders, meaning that they too can maintain the same head-stud spacing pattern.
So what are the main differences between all of the available pistons and cylinders? The early biral cylinders can be honed and reused just like other cast-iron cylinders on non-Porsche cars. Starting in 1974, Porsche mixed and matched the Alusil and Nikasil sets, so it’s really the luck of the draw as to which set you have in your car. For the most part, Porsche used mostly Alusil in the 2.7L and 3.0L engines because of the reduced cost of production. The Alusil cylinders, unfortunately, cannot be honed. The honing process destroys the etching layer, and renders them useless. In fact, a general rule of thumb is that the Alusil cylinders are a one-time-use product, and should not be used again if the engine is rebuilt.
Alusil cylinders cannot be reliably reringed. This indeed is a common misconception in some Porsche circles. There are no replacement rings available that are specifically designed for the Alusil cylinders. Of course, throwing out your current pistons and cylinders can lead to the large expense of new ones, so a lot of people reuse them anyway. In some cases, the new set of rings seat fine, and they indeed can be reused successfully. However, you cannot hone these cylinders, nor predict whether the rings will indeed seat properly. The correct action to take is to purchase new pistons and cylinders, otherwise you may be tearing down your engine again in less than a mere 1000 miles. These Alusil cylinders typically have a ‘KS’ Kolbenschmidt logo cast into their base, although for a time, Mahle also made Alusil cylinders. The coating on the Alusil cylinders is non magnetic, so you should be able to tell the difference with a simple refrigerator magnet.
If you are tearing apart your engine for reasons other than worn out rings or valve guides, then you might opt to reuse your Alusil cylinders. This would be the case, for example, if you were tearing down your engine to replace broken or pulled head studs. If this is the case, I would recommend that you take your pistons and cylinders off of the engine, put them high up on a shelf, and don’t touch them until you are ready to reassemble. Don’t pull the pistons out of the cylinders and don’t dislodge or disturb the rings. Of course, you are taking a risk here that you will have worn rings in the near future. However, if your engine is a 3.0L, with 100K on the odometer, then there is a good chance that you can get 100,000 additional miles or more out of your set of rings, cylinders and pistons. I don’t necessarily recommend playing the odds like this, but if you’re rebuilding a good running engine with excellent leak-down numbers for the purpose of replacing head studs or some other non-wear problem, then it might be a good bet.
The Nikasil cylinders can indeed be honed and reused. They typically have a ‘MAHLE’ stamp on the lower side of the cylinder. The nickel-carbide surface needs to be lightly honed with a special silica impregnated tool, or what is commonly known as a grape or flex hone. The surface properties are too hard for normal tool steel honing machines. The Nikasil coating will be ever so slightly magnetic when you place a magnet next to it. The honing process is performed using special tools – either a specific tool designed to hone the cylinders, or a grape hone. Either way, you should only have an expert familiar with the Nikasil cylinders perform the honing process.
Last night I was looking at scored cylinder pics on google to see how bad mine are and stumbled upon the scoring/scuffing issue with the 997 Porsche models. Some were saying the issues started around 40k miles, some at 125 and a few in between, but they were all saying it's going to happen at some point regardless of driving styles, maintenance or climate. They seemed to think it was caused by the expansion rate of the pistons during the warmup cycle in regard to the rest of the stationary and mobile contacting parts. In a few cases they were successful with rehoning/resurfacing their cylinders but didn't report back on how many more miles they were able to get out of those engines after the rebuilds.
I think that if done properly, such a repair should last a good, long time, especially in vehicles with high displacement which aren't used for racing, but it all depends on the shop/professional who will actually do it. That's the biggest con for this job, I'm definitely not skillful enough to attempt such a feat and don't know of anyone who is or even of anyone who will even attempt it. I was talking to one of my friends and he suggested replacing just the offending rings and see where that goes. The scratch doesn't seem to be deep enough to cause excessive blow by, but in the end it all depends on how the new rings seat in.
I don't know if it's possible to remove the cylinder walls, from what it looks like they are encased in the block, I was reading online that the whole block is cast around them. I haven't verified that though, but it would be just too simple to be true, and in contrast with my general luck situation.
At this point I'm trying to write to MB like The King suggested, maybe they have a block sitting around somewhere and they're willing to help somehow. I'd like to keep this car on the road for many years to come, that was the plan from the beginning when I got it.
The repair/rebuild projects are economically limited.
Years ago in Poland, I own Skoda.
That rear-engine 4-banger had wet sleeves and you could by whole kit sleeves/piston/rings for very low price.
I did the whole rebuild in less than 1 day on my driveway -all with no power tools. .
Than 40,000 km later I had to do it again as using Skoda for trailer hauling wear them out, but that's another story.
Polish enthusiast still buy "rust buckets" in Germany and spend the time to reweld the panels.
That makes sense where people work for $4/hr and MB shops charge less than $10/hr.
Now don't drool on keyboards.
I remember my uncle working on a Renault engine like that. It had the removable cylinder sleeves/walls and no electronics, not even a transistor. Those were definitely simpler times, less headaches. But I also remember he wouldn't get more than 40-50 k miles out of the rebuilds until it needed to be done again. He didn't seem to mind though. It's so weird how Poland charges 10$/h and it's teutonic neighbor does at least 10 times that. When I was living in Germany we had an early model Tiguan which was a complete lemon and thus visited the shop frequently (every 3 months). The rate at a regular, non dealership shop was around 100$/h, and the VW dealership charged 130-150$/h and still managed to screw up a water pump replacement, twice. They also tried to sucker us into paying for a pano roof retractable sun shade twice. That was the last time I ever took any of our cars to dealerships and started buying tools to do the work myself. Still couldn't save the Tiguan though, we got fed up with it and traded it in. Anyway, I remember a lot of our friends travelling to Poland and The Czech Republic for more serious maintenance on their out of warranty vehicles and they were happy with the results + bonus road trip.
Last night I was looking at scored cylinder pics on google to see how bad mine are and stumbled upon the scoring/scuffing issue with the 997 Porsche models. Some were saying the issues started around 40k miles, some at 125 and a few in between, but they were all saying it's going to happen at some point regardless of driving styles, maintenance or climate. They seemed to think it was caused by the expansion rate of the pistons during the warmup cycle in regard to the rest of the stationary and mobile contacting parts. In a few cases they were successful with rehoning/resurfacing their cylinders but didn't report back on how many more miles they were able to get out of those engines after the rebuilds.
I think that if done properly, such a repair should last a good, long time, especially in vehicles with high displacement which aren't used for racing, but it all depends on the shop/professional who will actually do it. That's the biggest con for this job, I'm definitely not skillful enough to attempt such a feat and don't know of anyone who is or even of anyone who will even attempt it. I was talking to one of my friends and he suggested replacing just the offending rings and see where that goes. The scratch doesn't seem to be deep enough to cause excessive blow by, but in the end it all depends on how the new rings seat in.
I don't know if it's possible to remove the cylinder walls, from what it looks like they are encased in the block, I was reading online that the whole block is cast around them. I haven't verified that though, but it would be just too simple to be true, and in contrast with my general luck situation.
At this point I'm trying to write to MB like The King suggested, maybe they have a block sitting around somewhere and they're willing to help somehow. I'd like to keep this car on the road for many years to come, that was the plan from the beginning when I got it.
Yes for sure that initial action is best, you may get lucky. As for sleeves, I would think current cylinders would be bored to accept new sleeves so maybe not an issue to have to remove anything from the block. But if course need to ensure knowledge of block and sleeve metal properties and expansion.
But that's just a theoretical point of discussion, I hope MB contact may yield results.
Yes for sure that initial action is best, you may get lucky. As for sleeves, I would think current cylinders would be bored to accept new sleeves so maybe not an issue to have to remove anything from the block. But if course need to ensure knowledge of block and sleeve metal properties and expansion.
But that's just a theoretical point of discussion, I hope MB contact may yield results.
I'd be very happy if the sleeves are removable. That would make it so much easier, provided they are available for purchase. The email has been sent to MB, I'll wait and see what they have to say. I asked nicely for a new block
I forgot to post a pic of a spark plug removal trick I learned from my father in law. It helped me a lot and made removing the spark plugs on recessed style engines much easier. It also doesn't allow for stripping of the plug's threads when putting it back in. All you need is a 1 inch piece of hose which will fit snugly over the plugs top. I think I used some hose from a brake bleeding kit, about 5/32" diameter.
Update:
MB CAC got back to me yesterday, they found an engine block for my car. It will only be 23000$, but it's fine, I'll get a 10% discount which makes it way better...
I wasn't expecting them to own up to their poor workmanship so I'm not amazed but definitely disappointed.
Heck, look at positive side.
YOU WILL GET TWO THOUSANDS THREE HUNDREDS DISCOUNT
Unfortunately owning luxury car is a tricky business. I've been lucky for long years with diesels, but even MB diesels in last years have seizure reports.
Good luck car shopping
Thanks!
They do make a good diesel, it's the 2.2L version for Europe (or used to be - I remember taxi drivers in Germany getting the old W211 to more than 500k km easily), but I guess big V8s and V6s are not their strongest suit. It's a shame, I really liked it.
02-17-2018, 09:55 AM
