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I've read through this entire thread and I am still quite confused by the build sheet (provided by MBUSA customer service) for my 2015 Aventgarde E250 Bluetec with:
Please help me understand if I am breaking this down correctly: Setting aside Airmatic and AMG cars, there are two suspension tunings, comfort and sport. Comfort corresponds to BOTH 485 and 677. 677 is just lowered 15mm compared to 485 which is only available on the Elegance models. 486 is a true sport suspension with stiffer damping. Is 486 even lower than 677?
With 677 and 17-inch wheels with Michelin Pilot Sport A/S 3+ tires my comfort is excellent in a straight line but turn-in is distinctly soft and creates more body roll than I would ideally like. What would all have to be replaced in order to retrofit 486? Springs, struts/shocks, and springs? Or would a good bet be to just put in a Bilstein B6 and leave everything else the same. I have driven E350s that I believe to have 677 and they seem to be sharper. Could this be solely due to their 18" wheels or am I just mis-remembering?
Regarding ride height, I don't notice a tilt to the car as previously described, but I do feel as though it looks high off the ground compared to most other W212 that I see. Perhaps it is just an illusion with the fairly small 17" wheels.
CCWW,
According to my own understanding, like what it said in the video l posted above, regarding the suspension settings of a sedan, MB usually offers Sport (486), Avantgarde (677) and Elegance/ Luxury/SE (485) to customers.
For my 2011 w212 E250 CGI Avantgarde, it has springs (677) about 20mm lower than Elegance springs, l believe they are stronger than Elegance springs as well, providing less spring compression distance as expected. Like the video said, the Avantgarde gets better control, but sacrificed a little bit comfort.n
However, although Avantgarde and Elegance models use different factory shocks, but according to most 3rd party manufacturers like Sachs and Bilstein and many others, they offer same shocks for replacement of both models' shocks, that makes me believe (677) and (485) are using shocks of same stiffness.
That's why l ended up only changing the springs for Elegance model, l want a softer ride.
And in Hong Kong, most Sport (486) and Avantgarde (677) of the same model share same springs which are about 20mm lowered than Elegance, but Sport has harder shocks. I used to own a C200 Sport, that's why l know it.
So for you, if your car is having Avantgarde(677) suspensions, you already got a lowered springs, but 'soft' shocks as Elegance, you should get the shocks changed, l guess Bilstein B6 or B8 are choices to go with. But do consult an experienced technician before doing any modifications.
I must say I am still a little perplexed as to why my experience driving my 2015 E250 Bluetec is different from a couple facelift W212 E350s with I believe 677, feeling the latter to be meaningfully sharper and flatter. I doubt the 18" wheels vs my 17" could have done that. My car only as 30k miles, but with it nearing 6 years from manufacture could the stock shocks be needing replacement?
Bilstein is tempting, especially if the shocks may need to be replaced anyway. They seem to have a great reputation for longevity and quality. Considering that @S-Prihadi is happy with the improvement in ride quality from the B4, the B6 seems to be a natural choice if I am seeking significantly flatter cornering and am willing to give up a little bit of comfort.
Does anybody have experience with B6 on the W212? I see that @S-Prihadi says the B4s improved both ride quality and spirited driving, but I wonder if the improvement in spirited driving is enough for what I want, especially for sharper turn-in performance, thus the inclination towards B6.
I have also looked at Koni FSD/Special Active, which supposedly becomes quite stiff to resist body roll and dive while maintaining compliance over rough surfaces. However, reviews are more mixed, especially regarding reliability and I cannot find any info online about firsthand experiences on W212.
Are there any other things in the suspension I should check to investigate my feeling of insufficiently sharp turn-in and too much body roll? Sway bar bushings etc?
Perhaps I should start a separate thread as most here are seeking greater comfort rather than sharper handling...
In a quick lane change, or agressive cornering, 45 aspect ratio tire you are using ( I assume you are on 245/45-17 yes ? ) versus say E350 assumed 245/40-18 is probably very little difference.
So shock absorber is your next best try. Bilstein B6 I hope will satisfy you.
B4 I can not drive very agressive for zig-zag or quick lane change, but surely much better than the OEM SACHS.
I am much older now, so too firm a ride on a 4 door is not my goal.
I once had a Supra MK2 in 1983 which has street racing suspension spring + absorber and it is quite low the ground clearance, that car I can do "irresponsible-reckless" fast lane change at 105 MPH like it is a 50MPH,
which I will not be able to do on my E400 with Bilstein B4
In a quick lane change, or agressive cornering, 45 aspect ratio tire you are using ( I assume you are on 245/45-17 yes ? ) versus say E350 assumed 245/40-18 is probably very little difference.
So shock absorber is your next best try. Bilstein B6 I hope will satisfy you.
B4 I can not drive very agressive for zig-zag or quick lane change, but surely much better than the OEM SACHS.
I am much older now, so too firm a ride on a 4 door is not my goal.
I once had a Supra MK2 in 1983 which has street racing suspension spring + absorber and it is quite low the ground clearance, that car I can do "irresponsible-reckless" fast lane change at 105 MPH like it is a 50MPH,
which I will not be able to do on my E400 with Bilstein B4
Thank you very much for the re@S-Prihadi. It sounds like the way to go for me is likely the B6. I’m definitely not looking for a setup or capabilities like your Supra, just less body movement roll and sharper turn-in.
If I do go ahead with the B6 I will be sure to update with a review.
Please do update if you go ahead with the Bilstein B6 - this sounds like the way I'd like to go also.
Will definitely update if I do.
I am interested in your current driving impressions and what you are hoping to change as well as your specific factory setup and mileage.
I am not adverse to spending some money and taking a chance with the B6, but I do want to also rule out other possible causes for my unhappiness, such as bad sway bar or strut bushings. I am still rather confused as to why I perceived E350s with 677 that I’ve driven to be more planted. It could just be misremembering. Perhaps a thorough inspection is in order.
I am interested in your current driving impressions and what you are hoping to change as well as your specific factory setup and mileage.
I am not adverse to spending some money and taking a chance with the B6, but I do want to also rule out other possible causes for my unhappiness, such as bad sway bar or strut bushings. I am still rather confused as to why I perceived E350s with 677 that I’ve driven to be more planted. It could just be misremembering. Perhaps a thorough inspection is in order.
Good to check more iinformation before make any move.
I checked the VIN of 6 E250 before made up my mind to change the springs, you can do it too.
BMW and MB OEM suspension set up is different, BMW is a bit more firm usually, but its worth a read.
Since a shock absorber even though it is not leaking oil, it DOES get degraded for its performance overtime progressively, a new B4 or B6 will be an obvious new joy just from the semi-worn out state of the OEM Sachs say at 50,000 KM old.
Since shocks absorber degrades so slowly , owners usually do not realize it as daily their "butt" sensor will adapt.
Shock absorber degrade its performance overtime progressively is easy to explain. This unit contains many valves in a sealed tube.
The valves control the oil flow, and as with any valves, it will eventually goes out of specification.... which will result in an out of target performance.
Only when the rod guide seal leaks ( see below photo ) and we see oil released out, we then think the shocks are bad....well that is not the case, the are many more seal kit inside a shock.
The real workhorse to how your shock behave............is the middle seal/valving kit as part of the PISTON assy, which so happened a Digressive one shown above if a B6 or B8.
Now, the oil between different chambers are supposedly regulated by the shim/disk of the piston valving kit. This shim can also get "weakened" from doing repetitive flexing.... yes it works by flexing itself.
However if the piston band* ( *similar to our piston compression/oil ring) is already very worn out too, there will un-intended and un-regulated oil change between the chambers.
This is why I meant by worn out or degraded shocks but no phsyical leak to exterior and one will assume his shocks are still "good".
The other important one is the nitrogen gas seal kit at the bottom. This one if leaking your shocks felt like crap when the oil heat up & oil foaming happened....usually take a long drive to feel it.
When testing used shocks by hand pressure and its rebound or return to full height .....if too slow compared to a new one, the gas has leak off some.
Gas molecule is smaller than oil molecule, do not be suprised over time the nitrogen gas will leak out , but you find no trace of oil leaking out.
For W212 Bilstein B4 is twin tube , the B6 is monotube.
My 2016 Sport with 677 is noticeably softer than my 2014 C350 with 486. Sometimes I thought the C350 was too firm. But sometimes I think the E350 is too soft.
My 2016 Sport with 677 is noticeably softer than my 2014 C350 with 486. Sometimes I thought the C350 was too firm. But sometimes I think the E350 is too soft.
Not sure what i will do, but probably nothing.
So your 2016 is a Sport 'look' while your 2014 C350 is a real Sport......
My back got permanent injury after 1~2 month's drive of a 2014 C200 with 486 and 18" wheels. I sold it and not smart enough l bought a 2011 E250 Avantgarde.... Then when l discovered an Elegance ( with 485 Comfort Suspensions) is a better choice for my back l tried very hard to change the suspensions to 485 specs....
That's my story, not a good one so far....
BMW and MB OEM suspension set up is different, BMW is a bit more firm usually, but its worth a read.
Since a shock absorber even though it is not leaking oil, it DOES get degraded for its performance overtime progressively, a new B4 or B6 will be an obvious new joy just from the semi-worn out state of the OEM Sachs say at 50,000 KM old.
Since shocks absorber degrades so slowly , owners usually do not realize it as daily their "butt" sensor will adapt.
Shock absorber degrade its performance overtime progressively is easy to explain. This unit contains many valves in a sealed tube.
The valves control the oil flow, and as with any valves, it will eventually goes out of specification.... which will result in an out of target performance.
Only when the rod guide seal leaks ( see below photo ) and we see oil released out, we then think the shocks are bad....well that is not the case, the are many more seal kit inside a shock.
The real workhorse to how your shock behave............is the middle seal/valving kit as part of the PISTON assy, which so happened a Digressive one shown above if a B6 or B8.
Now, the oil between different chambers are supposedly regulated by the shim/disk of the piston valving kit. This shim can also get "weakened" from doing repetitive flexing.... yes it works by flexing itself.
However if the piston band* ( *similar to our piston compression/oil ring) is already very worn out too, there will un-intended and un-regulated oil change between the chambers.
This is why I meant by worn out or degraded shocks but no phsyical leak to exterior and one will assume his shocks are still "good".
The other important one is the nitrogen gas seal kit at the bottom. This one if leaking your shocks felt like crap when the oil heat up & oil foaming happened....usually take a long drive to feel it.
When testing used shocks by hand pressure and its rebound or return to full height .....if too slow compared to a new one, the gas has leak off some.
Gas molecule is smaller than oil molecule, do not be suprised over time the nitrogen gas will leak out , but you find no trace of oil leaking out.
For W212 Bilstein B4 is twin tube , the B6 is monotube.
Thank you very much for the information and the useful links. The report on the differences with the ML is very interesting and encouraging. I did not realize the B6 was constructed so differently from B4, it sounds like B6 is definitely the way to go for me.
My local MB dealer will do a thorough inspection of the suspension for about $160 which will set my mind at ease that the issues are not stemming from something else, such as a bushing. I intend to schedule the inspection soon and then depending on the answers will very seriously consider the B6 project.
I am interested in your current driving impressions and what you are hoping to change as well as your specific factory setup and mileage.
I have the 321 Sport Package with the 18" wheels, not quite 16k miles. I've been an on- and off-road driving enthusiast for many decades. I'm coming from a c230k which was my wife's car but transitioned to me, came with the factory comfort suspension then I put on a Bilstein/H&R suspension. For me, the ride height is about right or maybe a tad high. I can appreciate what the designer's were trying to do with the compromise between comfort/sport and at times am tempted to just leave it alone. But just as often I'm temped to put the Bilstein B6's and some beefier sway bars on...
So your 2016 is a Sport 'look' while your 2014 C350 is a real Sport......
My back got permanent injury after 1~2 month's drive of a 2014 C200 with 486 and 18" wheels. I sold it and not smart enough l bought a 2011 E250 Avantgarde.... Then when l discovered an Elegance ( with 485 Comfort Suspensions) is a better choice for my back l tried very hard to change the suspensions to 485 specs....
That's my story, not a good one so far....
How is the 485 suspension now after a few months? Are they much more comfortable than the 677 or somehow the same?
I have the same problem with my w212 car. 677 suspension is giving me back pain. I already changed the seat, but that did not solve the problem. I'm now thinking about changing the springs to 485 or selling the car.
I've red some German sites. A lot of owners complained about the stiffness regardless of the spring set....
My 12 has the 485 and my 13 has the 677, Night and day difference, I also have 18's on the 12 and 19's on the 13. I won't buy the 677 or 486 suspension cars again.
The 485 also sits 15/16th's of an inch higher so has more suspension travel, rides like a completely different car. Plus it sits high enough to fit over most parking bumpers, my 13's front air dam has taken major abuse until we got used to having to park short. Also way easier to get in and out of. The ride in my 13 reminds me of my 01 C 240.
The ride in my 12 is more like a Mercedes, not quite an S class. my last three cars were 07 S550, 03 S500, 93 500S and I had a 02 E320 and a 91 190E as well, my first Benz. The 02 had a better ride than the 12 and light years ahead of the 13. the 13 is about equal to the 190E and even with the C240 as well. My worst riding Mercedes were my 99 SLK and my 2001 SL500, but they were 2 door convertibles.
Last edited by pierrejoliat; 07-05-2020 at 07:26 PM.
How is the 485 suspension now after a few months? Are they much more comfortable than the 677 or somehow the same?
I have the same problem with my w212 car. 677 suspension is giving me back pain. I already changed the seat, but that did not solve the problem. I'm now thinking about changing the springs to 485 or selling the car.
I've red some German sites. A lot of owners complained about the stiffness regardless of the spring set....
Hi JBK81
Sorry to hear that we have the same problem, guess not everyone here understand our pain.....
About the suspension , 485 springs really feel 'softer', i think because of its longer travel. I ride the very same road 3 to 4 times everyday, the difference is obvious.
About the shocks, a good friend of mine who is a mb mechanic for more than 25 years, he says the only difference between 677 and 485 is proabably the travel distance ( to match the springs travel distance), so changing the shocks may not help too much. But l second with member S-Prihadi, Bilstein B4 could further improve the ride quality a bit...
l strongly suggest you change the wheels to 16 inch and lower the tyre pressure to 31-32 psi, it helps a lot too!
Last but not least, keep an eye on other cars, find the softest ride, health is most important!
My 12 has the 485 and my 13 has the 677, Night and day difference, I also have 18's on the 12 and 19's on the 13. I won't buy the 677 or 486 suspension cars again.
The 485 also sits 15/16th's of an inch higher so has more suspension travel, rides like a completely different car. Plus it sits high enough to fit over most parking bumpers, my 13's front air dam has taken major abuse until we got used to having to park short. Also way easier to get in and out of. The ride in my 13 reminds me of my 01 C 240.
The ride in my 12 is more like a Mercedes, not quite an S class. my last three cars were 07 S550, 03 S500, 93 500S and I had a 02 E320 and a 91 190E as well, my first Benz. The 02 had a better ride than the 12 and light years ahead of the 13. the 13 is about equal to the 190E and even with the C240 as well. My worst riding Mercedes were my 99 SLK and my 2001 SL500, but they were 2 door convertibles.
My 12 has the 485 and my 13 has the 677, Night and day difference, I also have 18's on the 12 and 19's on the 13. I won't buy the 677 or 486 suspension cars again.
The 485 also sits 15/16th's of an inch higher so has more suspension travel, rides like a completely different car. Plus it sits high enough to fit over most parking bumpers, my 13's front air dam has taken major abuse until we got used to having to park short. Also way easier to get in and out of. The ride in my 13 reminds me of my 01 C 240.
The ride in my 12 is more like a Mercedes, not quite an S class. my last three cars were 07 S550, 03 S500, 93 500S and I had a 02 E320 and a 91 190E as well, my first Benz. The 02 had a better ride than the 12 and light years ahead of the 13. the 13 is about equal to the 190E and even with the C240 as well. My worst riding Mercedes were my 99 SLK and my 2001 SL500, but they were 2 door convertibles.
Thank you for your valuable information. So the difference is big for you. Sad to read that they didn't improve on the 13. It is very strange that Mercedes names the 677 suspension lowered comfort.
I test drove a C class w205 with the standard suspension and seemed to be comfortable. But I can't really rely on a short test drive.
I'm afraid that the discomfort also comes from the steering and pedal position. It seems to be offset and not in harmony like a VW or a Renault car.
Originally Posted by Dingo L
Hi JBK81
Sorry to hear that we have the same problem, guess not everyone here understand our pain.....
About the suspension , 485 springs really feel 'softer', i think because of its longer travel. I ride the very same road 3 to 4 times everyday, the difference is obvious.
About the shocks, a good friend of mine who is a mb mechanic for more than 25 years, he says the only difference between 677 and 485 is proabably the travel distance ( to match the springs travel distance), so changing the shocks may not help too much. But l second with member S-Prihadi, Bilstein B4 could further improve the ride quality a bit...
l strongly suggest you change the wheels to 16 inch and lower the tyre pressure to 31-32 psi, it helps a lot too!
Last but not least, keep an eye on other cars, find the softest ride, health is most important!
Cheers
Authentic 16 inches rim.
Thank you! Much appreciated.
The big question for me is, will it be softer enough to have the neck and back pain removed. If I understand you correctly, it is not solved 100% for you? Your experience could help me as I'm thinking of just selling the car. (it's that bad).
I’m now on 18 inch and when I change it to my 16 inch winter set, I do notice a softer ride, but still not comfortable enough.
From what I have seen is that the shock dampers are indeed the same. Also I wouldn’t risk the big investment.
Don't get me wrong the 13 has better stuff than the 02 E, NAV is better, sound system is better pano roof is awesome, blind spot, back up camera, gas milage is better by 5-6 MPG, self closing trunk, folding seats, package carrier in trunk, stops quicker, accelerates faster and at least it has two wipers instead of one which was terrible. The ride is just not quite as good and the seats are just not quite as comfortable as the 02 E. I would also say not quite as quiet on the highway either.
I agree that after a few hours on the highway, I find myself sitting crooked in the seat and have to readjust to get my left side back on the left seat bolster, then I'm fine.
My last two S classes had the massage seats so while driving they would automatically shift your seating position, which was really nice both had sticker prices over a 100K US, so can't compare a 50-60K E to that, they also both had Air Ride. totally awesome but well into the 5-6K range to overhaul.
And my 12 with 485 lists a different replacement strut than my 13 with 677 from Bilstein.For those who think the 677 is just an inch lower in ride height and other than that the same, go ride in a luxury, I go back and forth between cars almost daily and can tell the difference really easily.
Last edited by pierrejoliat; 07-06-2020 at 03:25 PM.
Don't get me wrong the 13 has better stuff than the 02 E, NAV is better, sound system is better pano roof is awesome, blind spot, back up camera, gas milage is better by 5-6 MPG, self closing trunk, folding seats, package carrier in trunk, stops quicker, accelerates faster and at least it has two wipers instead of one which was terrible. The ride is just not quite as good and the seats are just not quite as comfortable as the 02 E. I would also say not quite as quiet on the highway either.
I agree that after a few hours on the highway, I find myself sitting crooked in the seat and have to readjust to get my left side back on the left seat bolster, then I'm fine.
My last two S classes had the massage seats so while driving they would automatically shift your seating position, which was really nice both had sticker prices over a 100K US, so can't compare a 50-60K E to that, they also both had Air Ride. totally awesome but well into the 5-6K range to overhaul.
And my 12 with 485 lists a different replacement strut than my 13 with 677 from Bilstein.For those who think the 677 is just an inch lower in ride height and other than that the same, go ride in a luxury, I go back and forth between cars almost daily and can tell the difference really easily.
Ofcourse a better car overall and modern.
Interesting information about the differences between the cars.
Hmm. So the struts also are causing a big difference. I think it is also because Mercedes claims the 677 to be comfort, just lowered 15mm. Maybe I need to drive a luxury. Best to just test drive it before changing the springs.
Interesting information about the differences between the cars.
Hmm. So the struts also are causing a big difference. I think it is also because Mercedes claims the 677 to be comfort, just lowered 15mm. Maybe I need to drive a luxury. Best to just test drive it before changing the springs.
Thanks again.
Yes, I would agree, drive the luxury to see first, my only pushback is on the height, way more than 15mm, more like 24mm. I'll go take a picture...
Thank you for your valuable information. So the difference is big for you. Sad to read that they didn't improve on the 13. It is very strange that Mercedes names the 677 suspension lowered comfort.
I test drove a C class w205 with the standard suspension and seemed to be comfortable. But I can't really rely on a short test drive.
I'm afraid that the discomfort also comes from the steering and pedal position. It seems to be offset and not in harmony like a VW or a Renault car.
Thank you! Much appreciated.
The big question for me is, will it be softer enough to have the neck and back pain removed. If I understand you correctly, it is not solved 100% for you? Your experience could help me as I'm thinking of just selling the car. (it's that bad).
I’m now on 18 inch and when I change it to my 16 inch winter set, I do notice a softer ride, but still not comfortable enough.
From what I have seen is that the shock dampers are indeed the same. Also I wouldn’t risk the big investment.
Hi jbk81,
I suffer from lower back and neck pain as well, l guess our health condition affect our judgement to the car's comfortness. My back pain varies at times, when it gets better the ride would also get more comfortable, so we can't accurately judge a car's suspension objectively anymore..... (Sad...). And my wife and other passengers always say the ride is very comfortable, you know what l mean.
About my w212, it's comfortness gets obvious improvement with Elegance springs ( yes which makes the car rises 20mm higher..), thicker tyre wall and lowered tyre pressure.
l also adjust the seat position so that l seat more upright, and a cushion on my back too. All in all the ride is much better now and the most important is that my back pain does get worse during the past few months. One more tip, l seldom go faster than 100km/hr....
Yes l believe the shocks do matter, l would change them right away if l could make sure there are softer ones than the original. Right now l'm keeping my eye on the rear shocks first, l already bought 2 SACHS 317267 which supposed to match 485 specs, but l want to make sure it is as soft as original 485 shocks, l'm checking out the 2nd market everyday, hope l can find one from a w212 Elegance to make a side by side comparison....
I'm doing all these because l just love my W212, changing it would be the last move....
These are the SACHS 317267, supposed to be matching 485 specs.....
Yes, I would agree, drive the luxury to see first, my only pushback is on the height, way more than 15mm, more like 24mm. I'll go take a picture...
Thanks for the photos and info. 24 mm on the rear is a significant difference.
Originally Posted by Dingo L
Hi jbk81,
I suffer from lower back and neck pain as well, l guess our health condition affect our judgement to the car's comfortness. My back pain varies at times, when it gets better the ride would also get more comfortable, so we can't accurately judge a car's suspension objectively anymore..... (Sad...). And my wife and other passengers always say the ride is very comfortable, you know what l mean.
About my w212, it's comfortness gets obvious improvement with Elegance springs ( yes which makes the car rises 20mm higher..), thicker tyre wall and lowered tyre pressure.
l also adjust the seat position so that l seat more upright, and a cushion on my back too. All in all the ride is much better now and the most important is that my back pain does get worse during the past few months. One more tip, l seldom go faster than 100km/hr....
Yes l believe the shocks do matter, l would change them right away if l could make sure there are softer ones than the original. Right now l'm keeping my eye on the rear shocks first, l already bought 2 SACHS 317267 which supposed to match 485 specs, but l want to make sure it is as soft as original 485 shocks, l'm checking out the 2nd market everyday, hope l can find one from a w212 Elegance to make a side by side comparison....
I'm doing all these because l just love my W212, changing it would be the last move....
These are the SACHS 317267, supposed to be matching 485 specs.....
Yes. I understand completely. I also want to keep it. It is a hate love relationship with the car.
I’m the only one at home that has the problem. Strange enough this is my first car where I have back pain. So I’m pretty confused about whether it is the car or my back. My dad finds the car perfectly comfortable.
I thought it was the seat, so I placed a recaro ergomed in it. The recaro seat is firm, and made the problem much worse. You feel the car much more and the lumbar is pressing on my back much more. The original seat with a lumbar cushion mas a lot more managable. Maybe it is a combination of factors.
The sachs suspensions you posted are also for sport, and standard chassis I read. And the only other ones I see on the market are those and a twintube version. I have a 2014 version of the car. I think those sachs are already under my car as oem, but I need to ask the dealer.
04-18-2020, 11:42 AM
