S-Prihadi

First and foremost, I live in a city with ambient dust so high and diesel engines buses + trucks still pumping out lots smoke and at 32-35C ambient day time temperature year round,
opening a panoramic glass is = sucking all the pollution. Even with a 3M crystalline 60% dark tinting film, the glass own tinting and the fabric blocking the sunlight, by 10:00 AM to 2PM the
sun heat radiation is still strong inside the cabin. I am 6 degree south of the equator, be it winter or summer solstice, I get 99% sun ray full power, except when in the rain or super cloudy.

Not to mention someone can spit out of a bus and that slimy mess can land into the cabin...egghh yuck.


Now the technical stuff :

01. Panoramic Roof for my 2014 face-lift model does not use water hoses to drain water out like common sun-roof. I checked with inspection camera and did a 4 points water pouring test and compressed air test.

Yes, EPC showed a hose, but not the connection to the hose


02. So how does the water be discharged from the "tray" of the panoramic roof ? Reminder, this only applies to panoramic roof and not sun-roof.
See image below....




Imagine the roof line is a kinda semi-ellipitical shape, see drawing B below


Since the shape of the roof line is actually a semi-ellipitical, the lowest points are the front windshield and rear windshield left and right.
So, the so called drip molding item #1 and area #2 and #3 at the panoramic roof image, are actually 4 water channels ( #2 & #3) with inner height of approx 2mm and almost as wide as the drip molding itself .

Is it better than sun-roof with water hoses ? Maybe, at least 4 water drain points instead of 2.
Easier to clean too with compressed air-gun and assistance from a 60cm 4mm OD nylon hose with 2mm ID to push air blowing capability towards rear windshield.

This is how the panoramic roof assy looks like. Left is rear side, see antenna pre-hole. Photos from Ebay seller. Dang, I love Ebay Visualizer Tool








.


03. Why I hate a panoramic roof ?
AA. The car rigidity is not as good as a normal steel roof.
BB. I have tightened down all screws and Loctite them, yes I got the infamous metallic sound. Its not creaking, its more like a metallic whipping/popping sound one time event short duration and VERY loud.
It will occur when one wheel is up on slope and causing the car to twist. My other cars with only sun-roof small opening has never ever had this kind of twisting force causing noise.
CC. Probably extra 75+ KG top heavy compared to steel roof due to so much heavy glass and all the motors + rails for the panoramic roof. Not good for handling.

04. Water is panoramic roof enemy. Be it from car washing or rain.
AA. There will be always be some minor water puddle inside the "tray" of the panoramic roof assy after a rain or car washing, unless you dry it out and the rear portion must be assisted with air gun compressed air,
because no cloth can reach it.

BB. Where does the water enter from ?






CC. Why water is a worry , if it will eventually be drained out ?
It will wet the wind deflector fabric at every rain and every car washing, by design and while the wind deflector is "parked", it will be the first place water will attack.
Rust will form at wind deflector steel part, hell why did not they use stainless or aluminum or composite ?
Also water moisture level will increase inside the cabin, if after the rain or car washing, if one does not dry the panoramic roof "tray" and that wind deflector fabric
immediately and then car is parked outside in hot sunny hours later after the rain or car wash.


For a cabin of 2,000 liters air space ( guesstimate ) a sedan version W212 is, a 100% humidity has 62 cc of water vapor equivalent at 30C ambient temperature.
Simply put, any decent rain can leave enough water droplets at the panoramic roof tray and under a hot sun, will elevate humidity inside the cabin.
So this is double whammy, one's HVAC system may be prone to "wet/humid" smell due to cabin air is "wet" often, if the sequence of event of high humidity frequently happened in the cabin.


DD. The worst offender of all, extra WIND NOISE or road noise leak at speed 120KM and above due to those seals on the panoramic roof glasses.
If water can enter easy, wind will enter even much easier. Remember the whistling noise from the front grille from a mere near zero gap between grille and bumper assy ?
https://www.tsbsearch.com/Mercedes-B...88-20-P-056908
Yes, I have that whistling noise and have not bother to fix it yet, and it is less offensive than the overall noise leak I get from the panoramic roof system.

EE. Now, the expensive part. How do I replace those foam/hair like seals of the panoramic roof system if one day they deteiorate and create bigger opening of the gap and more wind/road noise ?
In EPC I do not see separate part number ( not even shown ) for those seal. All I see is most forward static glass as 1 part number. So the foam sealed is molded into the rubber
edges from factory.

Courtesy of Ebay https://www.ebay.com/itm/10-16-W212-...-/264946000153




The same case will be for the most rear static bigger glass and how the sliding roof slide-back leg gets the sealing from 2 sides.
The inner seal come molded into the rear static glass edges.
The outer seal comes from roof side the drip rails ( plastic).

Again, courtesy of an Ebay seller.


Next, my hypothesis on what could be worse case, when some componen aged.
If, this flappy rubber lip which I called wind deflector ( below) ever got damaged and broken the last 10% towards the hood, there could be a chance that when driving at good speed, say 100KM/H or more and it is raining decently,
water may get pushed up and into the panoramic roof tray. The drip molding is also what the flappy rubber is protecting...... is the 2mm heigh water channel I speak of item/area #2 of 2nd image in this post.





04. Anymore issues I hate about the panoramic roof system ?
AA. Yes........... The headliner design due to accomodating the pano roof opening, can be noisy when on VERY bad/bumpy roads.
Enjoy the irritating noise


BB. Where does that metal to metal noise comes from ? See below....

In order for the headliner to maintain its unique shape for the 2 openings, front seat sky view and rear seat skyview, MB uses thin sheet metal lip as stifener for the cut-out/opening and glued it to the material of the headliner as shown above
The headliner feels like sort cellulose based material. Surely not plastic.

I probaby one day will remove the headliner again and try to place foam pads where the headliner metal lip may touch whatever metal components of the pano roof assy.

The middle frame of the headliner , between the 2 sky view openings, is secured only using those heavy duty velcro, only 3 points. See below

So overall the headliner is not so rigidly mounted to the roof.



CC. Have I seen signs of water ingress at the pano roof system ? Sure..............

When did this happened ? I do not know.
Could be during 1st owner ownership, could be during my ownership. It doesn't matter though, to me this is a reminder that the pano roof system is not very weatherproof for my climate.


Final : Did I break anything during the headliner removal ?
Yes I did one of the sunvisor anchor point ( both sides) is a bi-etch to remove. It also houses the electrical contact point for vanity mirror light, the small ones near sunvisor.
I am not good with delicate interior plastic trims. It is cheap, US$7 each. So I bought 4 pcs, 30 days special order. 2 used up and 2 for next job on the headliner.




End of Report.

Paxfobiscum

W
O
W
!

ChrisB

At a glance very impressive analysis & methodology.
Why not sell car & buy one without panorama roof?

DubVBenz

The hate you display for your panoramic roof matches the hate I feel for the majority of my countrymen. Very impressive and interesting writeup!

I have a panoramic roof on my W211 and hate two main things about it: The rattle of the rollup sunshade and the persistent creak/pop on uneven surfaces. I had hoped the increased rigidity of the W212 had solved that, but I guess not.

In terms of water and moisture, I have never had a problem because the car is garaged and when I'm driving, it is open between 40 and 100 degrees at all times assuming no rain. I suppose my local environment and the fact that the thing stays open to dry out are the reasons I've never had a problem there.

I did ensure I avoided it on my W212 though, just not worth the hassle (I'm always paranoid about it breaking).

S-Prihadi

There is no facelift W212 E400 without pano roof in my market. We get local assembled one, buy what they offer, can't custom order like you guys in USA / Europe.
My next daily MB if I decided to stick with MB, will be without pano roof, or even sunroof if there is a choice.
I do like very much the E400 3.0 TT engine though, that is why I chose it in the first place.

S-Prihadi

My car is garaged too but our ambient dust is so bad, car washing at least once a week in dry season is a must. 3 times a week in rainy season (like now) is the car washing routine.
Being white color, after a rain it looks real dirty

This year rain and last year October upwards.... is bad and worst wet period since I got the car in May 2018.
2018 & 2019 was very dry for my country, like a dry spell.
My city humidity is "wet" as always, day time 85-95% RH and at night 65-70% RH no less.

If you ever remove the headliner, you will see why/how all the creaking/popping noise will/may occur.
There are so many pieces of items screwed together to make the pano roof works, eventually some need re-tightening.

The only use for the pano roof for me is when I smoke in the car. I am a 2 packs a day smoker.
At slow speed under 60KM/H, I open up the roof 50% and driver window 50% and opposite to driver side but rear window 30%, set aircond to fresh air and have aircond still running,
this keep tobacco smell away from the aircond evaporator. When I am done smoking, I opened up 100% all windows and roof and full blast the aircond for 10 seconds, and car is still moving at speed, all smell gone.
As for cigarette butt, I have a small watertight portable container which I use as zero smell ashtray, so car interior won't keep any tobacco smell.
Sorry to NON-smoker I am discussing this bad habit.

DubVBenz

Indeed, the engine is quite nice! Enjoy!

Mohd Saadi

Wow man, amazing analysis
Can you post on how to remove headliner?
And how to check if water is discharging properly
I have a problem but I don't think it is from the pano,
I will post some pictures


Can you please help
​​

S-Prihadi

Saadi,
Is yours opion 413 pano roof too ?
Aside from possible blockage due to dirt on the 4 water channels at drip rail I speak of, the rear sharkfin antena can be a source of water leak.
Water drain test is easy. Pour water, better from a bottle with a hose, so that you can aim it to the rear of the car to see drainage issue.
I jacked up the car front, so that by gravity the water will flow to the rear hidden drains at the drip rail I marked red lines . Open up the trunk, you can see the water draining out.
For front , open up the hood/bonnet and near the hinge of the hood/bonnet, you can see water draining out from that black plastic drip rails.


I use this video guide to do the headliner removal. Watch it slowly over and over again and while undoing the headliner.

NOTE : I did not remove my rear seat , thus I can not take headliner out of the car.

CAUTION : Disconnect battery, the engine bay one, when you want remove the roof/light combo control panel.
For my car, without the roof/light combo control panel wire harness connected and when I remove car key from ignition, the roof automatically close itself from a fully opened condition.
Becareful, tools or hands or whatever, do not get pinch by the closing roof.

Becareful with the sunvisor anchor point I speak of. If you are careful and patient and now u seen where the hooks are based on my photo, I hope you don't break that part.

The only strong PULL you need to do is for the rear-view mirror removal. It uses a very firm spring and 2 lock *****.
Other components removal, be gentle yah.

Do not assume the only method of removing the headliner is always a PULL ( friction fitting), the B pillar cover is a PULL and also it has a kind of hooked shape white plastic too and you can not simply pull, you got to un-hook it.



Do it slow and always use a torch light to take a peek where resistance comes from when trying to remove anything.


The most rear part of the headliner has a few white plastik "hooks" too.






Have fun and dont break anything.....