BraggE550

I'm experiencing uneven wear and cupping on my rear tires (2011 E550 4matic, 203k km's), and so far have not been able to identify the cause.. so I would like to ask for this esteemed forum's help.

Here are the facts:
Tires: Nokian Entyre 2.0 245/40R18 (summer tires) and Nokian Hakkapelitta R3 235/40R18 (winter tires)
Both sets show similar wear on the inside edge of the rear tires, which is best described as cupping (some areas wear more than others) and the edges seem sharp. It looks like a sawtooth pattern when viewed from the side.
This wear pattern starts developing within the first 10,000 km's on these tires, and by 20,000km the noise and vibration gets to a level that is uncomfortable (while the rest of the tire still has plenty of tread left).

What have I done so far to try and address this:
- 4 wheel alignment every time before mounting new tires
- re-balancing
- replaced the rear shocks (not cheap at around $700 each!)
- Today I checked the wheel bearings. There is no obvious play and when I remove the rotor, there is no obvious noise when turning the wheel by hand. There is some 'rubbing' of the rotor against the parking brake shoe, inside the rotor though (on the top shoe). Could this be a sign of bearing play/wear?
- All of the suspension bushings look visually ok, and don't show any play when I try to move things by hand. Is there a better way to check the condition of the bushings?

Has anyone had similar a similar experience with premature tire wear on the rear inside edge? What am I missing?

Arrie

I have lost my right rear tire twice for wear at inner edge. At the same time the left rear also showed heavier wear at inner edge.

My understanding is this problem is actually due to the way Mercedes makes these cars. It is the same problem with S-Class too and the dealer SA told me they cannot really fix it because they can do alignment only to what Mercedes gives them to do it to and that does not fix the issue.

I’m thinking to take my car to an alignment and ask to have rear toe closed beyond the range that the MB values give or at least make sure it is set to the limit of the closed toe. If that does not help then it is adjustment on the camber angle. I think you need special bolts for these adjustments.

How do you like the Entyres?

Crna Mechka

Experienced the same issue with a previous set of ContiProContact's wrapped on OEM 18" Sport wheels.

Went through an alignment, diagnosis, etc. but never got to the bottom of it -- was told MBZ engineered the car this way for reasons to me unknown.

Interestingly enough when I switched over to a set of 18" OEM AMG wheels wrapped in the same exact tyre + specifications (ContiProContact's) there is no more excessive inner edge wear.

Arrie

So you were told the same story they build the car to act like this. I just wonder how do the toe or camper in the rear wheels change based on the ride height? There may be changes in these values that suite the fast Autobahn traffic better when the car rides a lot lower than in our "Sunday driving" roads. There has to be some sort of an explanation that makes sense, you would think...

BraggE550

Thanks for the responses Arrie and Crna Mechka. You make an interesting point about ride height and speed. I'm under the impression that the wear happens quite quickly on long summer road trips, ie. long stretches of high(er) speed driving at high temperatures. Of course the tire rubber will be softer and wear quicker, and in addition maybe at those speeds the airmatic system has the car drop, leading to increased camber (leading me to the opposite of Arrie's hypothesis above)... Does anyone have more insights or practical tips how to stop this excessive tire wear pattern?

CaliBenzDriver

My first thought after toe-in was worn control arm bushings getting torqued out ... you've covered it.

Now could it be an issue with your front and rear wheels spinning at different rpm's because of uneven circumference:
tire pressure/temperature,
weight distribution,
thread wear,
....
while the 4-Matic transfer case works to equal outputs.

Even my basic RWD differential quickly heats up my passenger side tire way more (4psi) than the left one that is mostly witnessing the work being done by the other side - I am underwelmed by how unbalanced the torque is distributed from side to side. I can only imagine front to rear.

K-Mac

Hard to imagine but the reality is OEM there is no front and rear Camber (or Caster) adjustment to resolve costly, premature edge tire wear !

To spread load more evenly, excess “edge load” can also lead to higher impact, ruptured side walls and rim damage.

It's all to do with cost cutting and the ever increasing speed of auto assembly lines.

The often quoted / re assuring “Full Front & Rear '4' wheel Alignment” - is in fact only TOE “directional” adjustment (new car industry's best kept secret).

Then being told (because of wide alignment parameters) “is within factory specs – there is nothing more that we can do” !

With owners going from one dealer to the next or resorting to constantly changing tire brands.

Camber adjustment is essential for other then “showroom height” conditions – ongoing capability for day to day commuting encountering high cambered roads, wheel squat through load carrying or lowering. Fitting wide profile tires, curb knock damage.


WE SAW THE NEED THEREFORE TO REINSTATE FROM THE EARLY 90'S:

W212 FRONT “CAMBER & CASTER” #502916K $480 (Both Sides).
(Same time replacing the 4 front highest wearing bushings).
Or Front “CAMBER” only #502916-1G $295 (Both Sides)
(less then the cost of '1' hi performance tire).


REAR CAMBER (& Extra Toe) #502126K $480 (Both Sides)
(replacing lower arm inner bushes).

Both front and Rear Camber can be fitted without need for arm removal. Unique KMAC patented design – precise single wrench adjustment. Accurately (underload) direct on alignment rack.

For serious / extra adjustment – Track days / Competition also front replacement top strut mounts.

Patented design provides both Camber and Caster adjustment (Quickest / Biggest adjustment from engine bay no need for strut removal).


STAGE 2 Street / Race #502916-2L $545 (Both Sides).
STAGE 3 Full Race #502916-3L $545 (Both Sides)


ALSO REAR UPPER CAMBER ARMS #502226-1M $595
(also includes extra Toe adjustment)
Not soft extruded aluminum but hi strength forged alloy same as OEM.

NOTE: When adjusting to resolve premature inner edge tire wear upper arms reduce important clearance top of tire to outer fender while lower arm kit retains this clearance.

Best Regards, Kevin.

DHL delivery $40 one kit $20 each extra


AUDI to VOLVO – Strongest, Biggest, Quickest Adjustment Systems.
Experience Of Resolving OEM Suspension Shortcomings Since 1964.

BraggE550

Thanks K-Mac. It's great to see that there are solutions to this issue! Perhaps I can ask you a couple of specific questions about my situation:
- My car is completely stock and used as a daily driver - no lowering, racing, etc. It has Airmatic, so keeps the ride height constant independent of load.
- The current camber on the rear wheels is -1.4degrees, which I believe is within factory spec
- The bushings don't show visual defects
- The car is 10 years old and has 203,000 km's

When installing the rear camber kit #502126K, what would be the recommended camber angle to eliminate the excessive inner edge wear? Which bushings get replaced as part of the kit?, Are there other bushings that get soft over time that I should consider replacing even if they don't show visual defects?

K-Mac

#502126K allows plus or minus 1.5 degrees Camber change.

Plus doubles existing Toe adjustment. Suggest to align shop reducing Camber to 0.5 degrees and Toe in at 1.5mm. Bushings replaced are the 2 largest / highest wearing. The lower arm inner.

Front Camber and Caster #502916K replaces the 4 front lower arm highest wearing while another popular kit is replacement uprated bushings for the 6 rear multilink arms Less twitch, flex loss of traction.


-Kevin

rapidoxidation

Bumping this thread because the inside edges of my rear tires are cupped right to the belts after a 6K mile cross country trip. I'm looking for a solution and am considering the KMAC adjustable bushings for the rear end but am also open to whatever other options the forum has to offer.
Listening...

S-Prihadi

Which example is the so called CUPPED tire you guys speak of ?
https://www.popularmechanics.com/car...r-car/?slide=3

This one ?


Like below ? better illustration

rapidoxidation

Like your last pic. Only the inside edge shows the cupping, and the tire belts are visible.

Left Coast Geek

on a rear wheel thats usually an indication one or more of the multilink rear control arm bushings are worn. its much easier to replace the whole strut than to try and replace individual bushings.

with the car on a lift (a wheel lift, not a chassis lift... or I suppose you could use 4 wheel stands or ramps and a floor jack to lift the chassis so you can get the stands/ramps under the wheels), have someone rock each rear wheel from 12 oclock, while you feel each control arm bushing, til you can feel which one(s) have excess play.

picture cribbed from random blog, I *think* this is a 2010 E class, so should be pretty close to our W212's. The control arms in question are the 4 light blue thin struts interconnecting the hub assembly to the subframe, those combined with the much more massive lower control arm make the 5-way multilink system.

S-Prihadi

Rapid,

MB factory REAR camber for my w212.065 E400 RWD is -1 degree 27 minutes , +- 30 minutes.
Rear toe factory target is 24 minutes, +- 7 minutes
I would think it is the same for your 2013 E350 assuming non 4-Matic.

Example, front camber is only -33 minute , +-21 minute.

True that with this value at rear camber, inner side of the tire would wear first, but its quite a "polite" wear I would say.
I think the cupping you are experiencing is more of a wear and tear of some parts of the suspension components.
What values are your last 4 wheel alignments and how many miles ago it was ?
I am assuming your wheel is standard wheel or at least spec is identical to standard wheel if using aftermarket one.

I will show you 2 set of tires wear rate rate. 1st it is not by me and 2nd is all my heavy foot.
Also I am experimenting with rear tire extra wall height for comfort.

My rear tire is now 255/40 18" , front 245/40 18"and no more the factory staggered original my E400 comes with, which rear gets 265/35 18".
The overall rear tire diameter as follows :
E400 original staggered 265/35 18" = 643mm
If all 4 wheels equal size 245/40 18" = 653mm
My current 255/40 18" = 661 mm or taller by 9mm over 265/35 and still taller by 4mm over 245/40 square set up.

There is no extra accelerated inner wear on my 255/40 rear set up.
However, I keep track of wheel alignment nearly per 7,000KM ish.
The way I drive, it seems my rear won't survive past 14,000KM to hit its wear limit mark.

I had issue with one of the 255/40 Michelin Pilot Sport 4, where its Road Force variation value produced minor vibration at 140KM/H and up.
So I replaced it with a new one and finally after waiting for warranty claim for so long, Michelin Indonesia gave me a new tire few weeks back.
Covid 2nd wave caused the delay.

Since only 1 side of the rear was new and 1 other is 7,000KM old, this new warranty tire now replaced this 7,000KM old tire.
The other one I bought new to replace the vibrating one has about 1,700KM travel during the time this warranty tire replaced the 7,000KM old tire on 29th Aug 2021.

=======================================

Below is : My older set or 1st Michelin PS4 rear being the 265/35 - 18", at 10,000KM because it was my driver mainly driving my daughter to school, has more rubber than myself 100% driving the 2nd set of tire for 7,000KM.
Rim/Wheel spec is 9J ET54 P/N A212 401 04 00 . If for the front 245/40 tire, the rim size is 8.5J ET48 A212 401 03 00. By RONALD, branded as AMG.



===============================


Below is 7,000KM of me 100% driving the 255/40 18" and car already have the Quaife ATB differential https://www.quaife.co.uk/quaife-prod...-differential/
....which really is a great LSD to place power on the tarmac properly. Rim wheel spec is Model CH-R , BBS 8.5J ET47 all 4 same wheels size, but front tire is 245/40

















Do a 4 wheel alignment to check what are your current values with the rear tires cupping.
Probably we can see what could be the culprit.

Left Coast Geek

indeed, cupping means the tire is moving back and forth randomly as it turns, which means there's one or more badly worn bushings in the control arms.

there should be ZERO reason to need an adjustable camber arm unless A: you're massively lowered or B: you're running way different size tires. or C: your frame is tweaked

BraggE550

Thanks everyone for keeping this thread moving! It seems that there is a reasonable level of consensus that bad suspension bushings is the most likely cause of the inner edge cupping that we're seeing on our cars. When I tried to visually inspect mine, none of the bushings were clearly cracked or could be moved easily... so I'm still interested if someone has more experience with this issue to help pinpoint the most likely suspected bushing / control arm. Replacing all of the control arms seems like an overkill to solve this problem, so I have the following questions:
1. Based on people's experience, is there one or two of the control arms that are most likely to cause this issue? Which are they?
2. Is there a better way to get a clear inspection of the condition of the bushings, other than the method suggested by Left Coast Geek, ie. trying to move the wheel and checking for movement?

rapidoxidation

I've got a 4 wheel alignment check scheduled for this Thursday. If they can bring it back into spec great, and if they can't I'll make sure to learn what is wrong and I'll replace the parts then have them align when the parts are back in good shape. Either way, I'll update as I know more.

BenzV12

I had a similar problems with the rear tires as well. I was told that I was running higher pressure on the tires than recommended PSI .
Let's see how it turns out on your car

S-Prihadi

One can't visually see a mild out of spec suspension arms/links, only BAD worned out arms.... YES.
Need to log using 4 wheel alignment system to keep track of changes.

I give a simple example below.
Back in Aug to Sept 2020, I had a learning experience adventure on Caster and Camber correction bolts and how MB WIS for Caster and Camber is only good for 1 side and the other side we have to do the opposite.
To cut the story short........ took me 5th to 9th alignment visits ( 5 ) to sort things out. I loved that experienced, what a learning.



Due to my rear 255/40 Michelin, 1 side is bad due to excessive Road Force variation and I bought a new tire while claiming for it..... I had the opportunity to see what a few millimeters of taller tire ( 1 new tire ) can effect
alignment value at the rear. That is the reason I did my 10th alignment and later 11th alignment when the claimed tire got replaced by Michelin Indonesia.

See the 9th alignment REAR CAMBER RIGHT SIDE and compare it to 10th alignment.
At 9th alignment, all 4 tires are under 1,000KM old.
At 10th alignment , rear right tire is 1,700KM old while the left one is near 7,000KM old or XX millimeters less tall.
Now see 11th alignment, where the age difference between both rear tire is only 2,400KM at best.
See how the RIGHT REAR CAMBER at 9th alignment and 11th alignment is nearly restored back from 41 minute to 42 minute,
where when at 10th alightment it was 47 minutes. Minute tire thickness difference between right and left rear tire create those differences at 10th alignment of approx 6 minutes.

When rubbers inside the bushing of arms/links has gone soft or compressed, toe and camber value for the REAR will also deviate when static.
But when in use, the deviation would probably be worse but we can't measure it. Our Azz Dyno can sometime works, but one willl need a very familiar road and
same tarmac condition always and same agressive speed too.... for Azz Dyno to sense negative differences.

If I may suggest, do alignment at least twice per the life of your set of tire, based on shortest life of the tire, which will be the REAR ones.
The average thread depth for Michelin PS4 is said to be 7.5 millimeters. So mid-life 4mm consumed will be a good time for 1st alignment on the said tire set.

When I read MB WIS and seeing we are reccomended to use special inclinometer called ROMESS

=============



.... I initially thought that was too much.
But when I saw 10th to 11th alignment REAR CAMBER right side value is effected by so little tire height differences,
I now understand how Romess tool can assist very fast if your arms/links are not in spec or if your chassis/subframe is "bent".

rapidoxidation

The left rear tire is still visibly tipped inwards at the top, but of course there's not much the shop can do about it without me dropping in some adjustable bolts.
Thoughts? I'm hesitant to put fresh skins on there with the rear

camber as is.

S-Prihadi

Rapid,

01. Mercedes wheel alignment spec is rather complicated if one does not do their own homework and unfortunately must have access to WIS data.
Too many variant of the car. So you must make your own data table. See attached zip. Choose your specific model + option/code
Only then you can tell if the alignment data shows out of spec value/s.

This is why I make my own data table , because I set my alignment value to what I want based on MB WIS, not to what them shop think/program is correct.
I would not expect even Hunter to know/care/program every options a W212 4matic can have, where alignment values are slightly different due to that.
Only owner with data card and the WIS I attached, will know the correct values with certainty.


02. Why there is no information on the alignment report for your suspension type ? Code 482, 485 , 486 , 489 or 677 ?
Why there is no information on the alignment report for what type of W212 ? 212.0 , 212.1, 212.2 and so on.
Above can matter a great deal if you want to know the database used by that Hunter machine and therefore the accuracy of the colors in the report, that RED = BAD and GREEN = OK and YELLOW=BORDERLINE
Don't use those colors. Use the correct MB spec and do your own calculation.


03. Your wheel alignment shop uses Decimal Degrees value , becareful....Mercedes spec is Degree and Minutes.
1 degree = 60 minutes
Decimal degree can be 1/100 if 2 digit after the dot.
Example , the rear toe. Left Rear is 0.24 degree. That means 24/100 x 60 = 14.4 minutes. Zero degrees 14.4 minutes
Tthe right rear toe at 0.23 degrees is 23/100 x 60 = 13.8 degrees. Zero degrees 13.8 minutes
Total rear to 0.47 degrees, which is 47/100 x 60 = 28.2 minutes
IF W212.0/2 with 486/677 suspension with 4matic, total toe at vehicle front axle level -1.24 degrees ( Romess) is : 0 degree 26 minutes +-7 minutes. So your values within spec IF W212.0/2
If for 212 AMG with 4matic 0 degree 26 minutes is a fail. It has to be 0 degree 14 minutes +- 7 minutes.

** Note : Becareful when reading alignment values at MB WIS I attached. Confirm car model & code/s to the dot.

Based on W212.0 ( dot zero) with 486/677 suspension with 4matic, REAR CAMBER. MB spec is ( with -1.24 degrees Romess level ) -1 degree 27 minutes +-30 minutes left or right side the same.
Based on W212.2 ( dot 2 ) with 486/677 suspension with 4matic REAR CAMBER. MB spec is ( with -1.24 degrees Romess level ) -1 degree 45 minutes+-30 minutes left or right side the same
Your LEFT rear camber being -1.9 degree is 90/100 x 60 = 54 minutes. -1 degree 54 minutes.
Your RIGHT rear camber being -1.7 degrees is 70/900 x 60 = 42 minutes. -1 degree 42 minutes
Permissible difference in rear axle camber between right and left side of vehicle is +-0degree 30 minutes for W212.0/2 with 486/677 suspension with 4matic,
Technically ignoring Romess value, your rear camber is still within spec when static if your car is a W212.0 or W212.2. Why the report give red color ?? I don't know Hunter actual database used, so I can't comment.

What we do not know is, your REAR CAMBER values is based on what Romess level the car is actually at now ? For now let's assume it is in spec.

Upon accelerating, cars will squat. The higher the power + heavy foot driver and RWD, the more squat. The weaker the spring and damper, more squat.
The weaker the rubber bushings are on the arms, more suspension play allowed. Your rear camber will change a lot upon squating.

By logic, the cupping wear you described , seems like your damper has gone bad, at least the damper. Too springy, loss of dampening control on the spring, hence wear on tire is like that, un-even...springy.
You don't have a 300 pounds worth of extra audio system at the trunk right ?

Remember, a damper job is to control the springy-ness of the spring, that's the main duty.

Rubber bushings on arms are also like dampers, but is works on angle and not simple up-down like a damper.
Brand new rubber of bushing with say 90 duro will twist X degrees, the twist equate to up/down movement on the suspension too.
Tired old rubber of bushing, say the duro level has gone soft, it will twist 2X degrees...more useless movement on the suspension system.
Useless movement on suspension system means your traction is also not maximize to the tarmac.


Front CASTER
Left, 6.7 degrees is 70/100 x 60 = 42 minutes. 6 degrees 42 minutes.
Right 7.4 degrees is 40/100 x 60 = 24 minutes. 7 degrees 24 minutes.
W212.0 ( dot zero) with 486/677 suspension with 4matic spec is 6 degree 56 minutes for FRONT. The Romess level front and rear for 212.0 and 212.2 is not the same.
Let's ignore the Romess value.
Permissible difference in caster between right and left side of vehicle, all W212 is Zero Degree 30 minutes. See BE40.20-P-1002-20L.
Your FRONT CASTER difference between Left and Right is already out of spec at 42 minutes
Document title Adjust camber and caster at the front axle Document number ar4020p0263ew
There is available MB original Caster and Camber correction bolts for the front, but let me warn you of its use.... it is not easy to be accurate to the expected correction value you seek.
One effects the other. They are like lovers


================================================== ============

For BraggE550,
To thinks the rubber bushing on the arms are okey unless torn/cracked = big mistake.
They are consumeables, we have to accept it or loose comfort, handling precision or have your tires worn out in weird ways or all mentioned.
If I drive your V8 in my country and with my WOT habits for gear 1 and 2, I guarantee you , your arms/links set will last only 1/4th of its typical USA use

================================================== ==============

A warning when replacing arms or its bushings only ( Lemforder sell bushings only )
Make sure the bolts are only torqued when the car is on the "ground" at its normal ride height.
Otherwise your bushings will be short lived. It will over twist during use, if one torqued the bolts when suspension is hanging in the air downwards.


Happy troubleshooting guys........

rapidoxidation

Good Stuff! Thanks for making that detailed reply. To be sure, the car did just endure a 6,000 mile trip across the states. Half of that was with two people and luggage, half was with 2 people, 120 pounds of maple syrup, a cabinet sewing machine, and some other weight... It wasn't a 300# speaker in the trunk but there was some significant weight in there.
What I can still see is the left rear tire is tilted. The car (4matic sport) pulls straight, goes down the road straight, and exhibits no handling problems. I'll see what happens, and will likely replace the two tires with issues. I've rotated them onto the front of the car so expect I'll feel that one tire causing a bit of a shimmy in the steering wheel which is going to drive me nuts. Note: Only a short arc of that tire is truly cupped; the rest of the inside edge is just worn. Might be a broken belt.

S-Prihadi

Rapid,

If say those alignment values started to go bad during your 6,000 mile trip, I think the right side tire will be the one more effected/worned...yes ?

I wonder, actually we can measure rear camber loaded. Get 3 friends or 400 pounds of weight at rear seat and see how much camber added
The same for my car during Jakarta-Bali-Jakarta run, it has more weight at the back and the car overall.
That also add to more tire wear overall per mile travelled.

ghlkal

for the record, my rear tires were cupped and worn on the inside edges also ...

I wondered if PSI would play a role. What pressure were you running and what did you change to?

BenzV12

I was running just below to maximum than what it was recommended by 1 PSI on the tire pressure label inside the door panel or fuel door . I followed the car manufacturer's settings .Tire brand was Michelin 245 / 45 /17 . I kept the same set up during my ownership