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Took my 2011 E350 4Matic to an independent shop recently for some work. When I went to pick up the car, I find out from the mechanic that the rear sub-frame is rotting (see pics). I am told that this is a fairly common problem the the C-class (W204, I believe) but starting to show up in W212s. Anyways, I call MBUSA and ask if they have any recall program. Am told no. I then went to NHTSA website and filed a compliant. Understand that if issue is not fixed, the problem will continue to get worse and should the rear subframe detach from the wheel, can lead to shrapnel puncturing the gas tank. Wanted other W212 owners to know. Haven’t heard anything from NHTSA yet, but will keep everyone posted. Next time, your car is up on the lift, have the tech check out your subframe condition - and file complaint with NHTSA if you car is experiencing a similar condition.
as a lover of landcruiser I have learned to use plenty of fluid film or the like (blaster surface shield). Is it time for us to start using this or a cosmolene product to prolong the life of these subframes. I’m lucky to not drive my 63 in salt but I will still coat it if this is a continued issue I keep seeing come to the forums. Better to coat early in its life and throughout before any hints of the orange cancer.
thoughts on this? Anyone do a w212? Or s212 which I have?
do not ever use rubberized or any undercoating that is “permanent” it will eventually crack and cause worse issues due to trapping water that can now not escape and is unseen.
Now, it is my speculative side talking. I have the impression that vehicles designed in the Daimler-Chrysler era have a rust problem overall. I recall the Jeep Liberty with rust issues for models between 2002->2007 (likely beyond). Wonder what kind of "financial technology they shared".
As a former Land Rover owner I can recommend you Eastwood's rust encapsulator: Eastwood Rust Encapsulator
I even got the long hose spray nozzle for the inside of the frame rails. It works very well.
Yes, they have a great product line. That is a conversion product vs a coating, imo. My rec was for those with no rust currently. I too use the extension hoses, even bought the gun for the oils for my truck.
I occasionally watch the youtube channel of this mechanic from a small town in upstate NY... he regularly sees cars like 5 year old Subaru's that look fine on top, but the undercarriages, subframes, etc are completely rusted out.
Now, it is my speculative side talking. I have the impression that vehicles designed in the Daimler-Chrysler era have a rust problem overall. I recall the Jeep Liberty with rust issues for models between 2002->2007 (likely beyond). Wonder what kind of "financial technology they shared".
Thanks. Is there a way to prevent further rusting/corrosion/rotting or is it too late now?
I occasionally watch the youtube channel of this mechanic from a small town in upstate NY... he regularly sees cars like 5 year old Subaru's that look fine on top, but the undercarriages, subframes, etc are completely rusted out.
Can you please share the channel if not too much of an issue? Thanks.
Thanks. Is there a way to prevent further rusting/corrosion/rotting or is it too late now?
If you watch the first video, you can hear a possible explanation for why the rust starts in a specific area. Keep in mind the sub-frame is all the same material, so why is it so focused on the ends of the sub-frame? Salt/mineral accumulation; therefore, a way to avoid it is to reduce/prevent accumulation and increase protection in reasonable ways. For example, @Baltistyle and @Left Coast Geek mentioned using rust protection, but be CAREFUL not to use one that degrades in ways that accumulate salt again (it beats the purpose, correct).
In the same video, near the end, the author suggests extending the fender liner in order to reduce the amount of pushed dirt/salt into the sub-frame w/o of course preventing drainage of the sub-frame.
I do not have WIS handy, but someone may be able to find the pdf version for this page (SI35.00-P-0009A). "Due to recent events, please ..." MB knows exactly what the problem is.
Oh you triggered bad memories with this.
Public Announcement: Please use long sleeve, long pants and cover your entire head when working with POR15. This thing attaches to everything and it takes a lot of work to remove.
Does anyone have the torque Specs for the rear suspension and susbframe they could share? I am going to be replacing mine this weekend. Subframe finally gave up after 11 years and 195K miles.. my family likes the car enough even with the high mileage that they wanted to fix it instead of getting another car.
If you watch the first video, you can hear a possible explanation for why the rust starts in a specific area. Keep in mind the sub-frame is all the same material, so why is it so focused on the ends of the sub-frame? Salt/mineral accumulation; therefore, a way to avoid it is to reduce/prevent accumulation and increase protection in reasonable ways. For example, @Baltistyle and @Left Coast Geek mentioned using rust protection, but be CAREFUL not to use one that degrades in ways that accumulate salt again (it beats the purpose, correct).
The old-fashioned undercoating MB used in the 70's to 90's had the unpleasant characteristic of separating from the metal, and then TRAPPING dirt and moisture tight against the metal that it was supposed to protect. I know that POR-15 is expensive, messy, and so on, but most YouTube tests have demonstrated that it is still the best or among the best. I have been amazed at how physically tough a paint it is even if you are not looking to rustproof. And unless you are driving very poorly, you don't have to worry about it's lack of UV protection in this application
Unfortunately, I don't see any way of applying it and doing a complete job on the W212 subframe without dropping and disassembling the frame and associated parts, not a simple task. If I were to install another subframe, I would definitely rustproof it first, something that I doubt a dealer would do.
The old-fashioned undercoating MB used in the 70's to 90's had the unpleasant characteristic of separating from the metal, and then TRAPPING dirt and moisture tight against the metal that it was supposed to protect. I know that POR-15 is expensive, messy, and so on, but most YouTube tests have demonstrated that it is still the best or among the best. I have been amazed at how physically tough a paint it is even if you are not looking to rustproof. And unless you are driving very poorly, you don't have to worry about it's lack of UV protection in this application
Unfortunately, I don't see any way of applying it and doing a complete job on the W212 subframe without dropping and disassembling the frame and associated parts, not a simple task. If I were to install another subframe, I would definitely rustproof it first, something that I doubt a dealer would do.
There are three different types of products to consider.
A rust converter. That is por 15. This is like an epoxy and also converts the rust to a non reactive substance. Phosphoric acid and other compounds are also converters but do not leave a nice finish. Very messy to do it right. And you need inside and outside of all areas. Eastwood makes great products to achieve this as well. Normally you convert, paint the final color (por is like both steps) and then use a film like below.
An undercoating. This is something like rhino liner or a rubberized coating. Any damage to this coating allows water to penetrate under the coating, trapping moisture and increasing risk of unforeseen or unseen corrosion. This is an absolute no. ABSOLUTE NO.
A film protectant. The two major types are lanolin based such as woolwax, fluidfilm, surface shield and others are cosmoline based and I do not know the names of the products off of the top of my head. I think crc and amsoil are similar. The lanolin products are either pure or have some additive to make it last a little longer. Best uses of each are based on the area treated and if the wicking into creases is needed. The thinner ones are best applied every year. These oils attach to the metal between the environment and the metal.(think regular oil coated metal does not rust). It’s recommended to drive on a dirt or dusty road to coat the oil in a dirt to make it last longer. Cosmoline is the tan dry looking product and is used in many industries such as firearms. It’s more permanent and very hard to remove. It does not flow as well, possibly protecting the best, as long as it gets everywhere. These types slow down current rust and ward off rust on a newer frame.
nothing stops rust but a converter. First sand or wire wheel and then convert, then paint with por. then protect fluid film applications as needed. Every spec of rust needs to be done because just a fleck landing elsewhere acts as a catalyst
I have personally done a ton of research on this product because older Land Cruiser’s were very prone to rust and I really needed to protect my mint purchase. Just last weekend I did two cruisers in about two hours, using both surface shield and fluid film. They have full boxed frames so the extension 1/8 diameter wands made it easy for the doors, frame, etc.
Lastly, drill drain holes anywhere the factory forgot, obviously treating that bare metal as well.
An undercoating. This is something like rhino liner or a rubberized coating. Any damage to this coating allows water to penetrate under the coating, trapping moisture and increasing risk of unforeseen or unseen corrosion. This is an absolute no. ABSOLUTE NO.
Gary
Just wanted to reply to this portion. The other stuff I agree with.
The xliner or such types just like powder coating and paint protect until damaged yes. The problem is then the exposed area from the damage allows rust to propogate as it corrodes the metal which causes it basically to creep under the laminate. A good Paint in my experience does even better then powder coat depending on how good eiher is done.
Ive had xliner on my truck beds that have been going on 10 years or more without issue. The only spots to rust are where pieces get gouged out and rust begins on the bare metal. If left unattended it will work its way thru the metal under the coating. Will do the same with just about any type of treatment if not reapplied or fixed at some point.
I do not have WIS handy, but someone may be able to find the pdf version for this page (SI35.00-P-0009A). "Due to recent events, please ..." MB knows exactly what the problem is.
Sucks that they totally know exactly whats going on and arent doing anything about it.
Just wanted to reply to this portion. The other stuff I agree with.
The xliner or such types just like powder coating and paint protect until damaged yes. The problem is then the exposed area from the damage allows rust to propogate as it corrodes the metal which causes it basically to creep under the laminate. A good Paint in my experience does even better then powder coat depending on how good eiher is done.
Ive had xliner on my truck beds that have been going on 10 years or more without issue. The only spots to rust are where pieces get gouged out and rust begins on the bare metal. If left unattended it will work its way thru the metal under the coating. Will do the same with just about any type of treatment if not reapplied or fixed at some point.
It looks like you agreed, when damaged, creates more harm than good As most people do not inspect for damage and the metal is covered, its often overlooked, leading to the future issues. These products also can not be sprayed inside of doors or creases as they clog drain holes, trapping water. Nor can the inside of the frame be inspected for delaminating and proper application. Newer trucks do not have the drainage areas sprayed with the undercoatings. And treating under a truck is very different than treating inside the bed of a truck. Think about the Fords and Dodges that have fender issues, they can not have been protected by an undercoating. Truly, nothing beats an oily waxy coating that wicks into everything and is very easily reapplied. When an oily or waxy areas is "scratched", the oil wicks into the scratch. While the undercoatings can have problems, the waxes etc do not have any drawbacks when applied to metal surfaces. My answer is for very easy DIY preventive measures
12-19-2022, 10:53 PM
