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I've had my W212 E200 for a year now and have decided I want to upgrade my speakers in the near future. The standard system is OK, but could definitely be better.
I'm pretty sure I need 6.5 inch speakers and so that's what I've been searching for. I have found two sets that I was contemplating getting, but I wanted to ask here before buying them.
The speakers I would like to get are the Hertz Mille 165MM - MLK 165.3
I don't know a lot about speakers, but from what I can tell these are pretty good and easy for me to get.
Here are some of the specs:
- Power Handling - Peak W 300
- RMS W 150
- Frequency 40 - 25kHz
I think the speakers will fit pretty easily, but I'm afraid the tweeters won't fit? If anyone could help me figure that out it'd be greatly appreciated.
These 150W RMS Speakers looks real good but what are you going to do with the integrated digital fiber Amplifiers - They are the limiting factor here, then power supply wiring.
Someone may he able to guide you down a viable upgrade path for the integrated OEM audio.
Are you saying I need more amplifiers?
I am open to doing a full "sound build" with speakers, tweeters, amplifiers and even a sub if I feel like it.
I do not know enough about sound systems to know when I need amps and what not.
I don't know what exactly is your goal - Usually is to get things louder because with this system, digital sound is already perfect with each individual digital channel per speaker.
Replacing only speakers without an amp will only accomplish next to nothing - So it makes sense you need an amplifier... that were expertise is needed to integrate with existing system WHILE KEEPING QUALITY. Not a down grade feed through speaker line input.
Car Audio is a luxury specialty with fantasy specs (Peak Pwr vs. RMS Pwr ) and fantasy 5x pricing through the roof for mainland goodies.
All I am saying is be ready to pay a lot but watch your step with vague smokey sales pitches. The speakers need to match the amp not the other way around ie. select the amplifier solution before the cones.
What amp can best match W212 digital HK fiber: I don't know yet?
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 10-17-2023 at 05:03 PM.
Hey I used to work in car audio at a pretty high level, Focal/Audison/Hertz/Gladen/etc
those MLK's are way nicer than a simple plug and play install. They're pretty much the best of the best but they're at a level where the speaker price is the least of your worries. You'll need a nice install with rings, deadening, DSP/Amp, a sub, some tuning, and matting the trunk as well. We're talking like 5k+. potentially. The HSK is the sweet spot in the line up, you'll want speaker-kits/custom installs plus sound deadening in the doors. Not to mention there wouldn't be enough bass from the 6.5's so a sub is a must. Don't buy speakers without going to an installer to make sure you're up for the task and expense.
You'd have to hijack the signal from Komand, into a DSP to give yourself EQ, preferably to simplify the install, a DSP+ amp, plus a sub something like the Mosconi One, then disable your rear speakers you don't need em at that point. For that level of quality youd want something like a JL W6 12" sub in the trunk too.
If you just want to replace the door speakers, I would just swap them to an Audison Prima or Focal Access with some speaker rings and be done with this. You'll love the way they sound. If you were to swap to Mille you might not even notice the difference sonically..
Without a DSP, amp, and tuning the Mille setup will be really peaky, and shrill not to mention underdriven and you'd be running them at like a -2 through the passive crossovers, which honestly suck and deplete the power through heat buildup in the crossovers.
Thanks for the detailed answer, appreciate it.
did not realize it would be that much work. There aren’t any actual shops for that kind of work in my country, so I’d have to really look for someone to help, which would be too much hassle.
I think I’ll go for some other speakers, probably plug and play for now.
From what I’ve been told, these Audison speakers are plug and play. Would love if someone could confirm or deny that:
Thanks for the detailed answer, appreciate it.
did not realize it would be that much work. There aren’t any actual shops for that kind of work in my country, so I’d have to really look for someone to help, which would be too much hassle.
I think I’ll go for some other speakers, probably plug and play for now.
those are the Prima's I was talking about. You have to cut the HK speakers out because these OEM installs are usually glued in to get a good seal. You'd end up doing more of the same but more or less these would fit because of the depth and I'd consider rings/baffles to get a good seal. Nothing is truly plug and play in an OEM solution, those days are long gone. You'll also need to convert from the 4 or 2ohm Audison Prima speakers to 8ohm coming from the car since the HK system is 8ohm.
Not much bass in my W212 so I investigated and the woofers in the front doors were faulty which seems to be a common problem.
The originals are mounted in a weird HK surround which to me seems to be just a fancy engineering exercise
I found some 6.57" (167mm) speakers on ebay with specs 600watts music power, good sensitivity 93dB, frequency response down to 60Hz
At $20 a pop worth a try. They wouldn't fit inside the HK surrounds so I cut away the flange with a power jigsaw to mount the speaker on the outside.
I cut the old speaker out and trimmed a larger circle cut out to fit, cut some plastic off the connectors and bent them up.
I used a bead of black silicon between the HK surround and the speaker flange to make a seal so that the baffle works.
Pop rivetted the speaker on the HK surround and pop rivetted the HK surrounds back on the doors and plugged them in.
Amazing result. Good as new and possibly better. Booming bass for a bit over $40.
Last edited by Bruce Hubbard; 11-03-2023 at 11:40 PM.
Before you get excited, investigate how your system works, what components will be lost once an aftermarket system is designed for your car to replace current system, because the current system is not compatible with aftermarket speakers and amps.
I know, when my head unit failed, I looked into putting an aftermarket system in, $1000 to repair my unit or $7 or 9k to replace entire system and lose many functions integrated into the car and system.
Just know the facts before you spend money on things you cannot use. I know people have replaced speakers, and sometimes the impedance is close enough it works, but if the mismatch is too great can fry the transistors in the output section of the amp, these are very heat sensitive and if the impedance is too great you will take out your power amp, and will either need to repair or replace it and the speakers.
The impedance on the label is usually different than the actual measured impedance, High end speakers have a tighter tolerance, whereas eBay speakers can range 20% +/-. just saying,
I work on tube amps and the exact measurement of components used in the amp have a huge affect on tone and power output. It's why I measure and test each and every resistor, capacitor, and tube I use.
Seems that tube amps and Mercedes amps have something in common.
If replacing speakers which we will all eventually have to do cant the replacements be measured to verify the resistance. That with replacing components in the amps and fixing other issues will hopefully extend the life of the system.
Pretty sure replacing all the speakers and amp/s and head unit with stock replacements on one of these is not going to cost anywhere near $1k (thinking way more than that). Just saying. Not to mention ya have to get all of this thru the dealer from what I understand, harden doesnt even list vehicles on there website.
Measuring is the safe bet indeed. As long as the impedance is a match of the original speakers, no need to change anything else. Issue is still, as the driver is operated the impedance changes so you must get speakers within the same frequency range and tolerances, meaning, you will end up with very similar sound of old speakers.
A rebuilt head unit is $5k, a rebuilt Amp is $2k, I did not price speakers. Plus, the amp and head unit must be coded to your car then updated software installed. Either the dealer or a service, used units are coded to their original car, few know how to wipe the old coding and re-code to your car, still expensive.
Believe me, I tried very hard to find a cheaper route, and drove my car using a BT sound bar just to have tunes for two months. I wasn't about to pay the dealer $5k for a used unit, I tried getting schematics for the unit, they are guarded worse than a iPhone software repair authorization.
I chose the route I did as no coding necessary, and I knew it was just a failure in the output section only, I just didn't know the values or where to obtain the right parts needed. Sure I could have gotten something close, but what effect on the speakers and amp, it might make it sound terrible if I was off the least bit.
So $1k was well worth it. And the least expensive route.
The speaker impedance dictates the amplifier output power.
We don't want to fry anything prematurely so that is a call to be conservative... unless one has $10k budget to really make things pop.
There's a difference between speaker coil resistance and its impedance value. The Impedance "Z" is the dynamic coil winding ("L") response across the audio bandwidth 10Hz to 20kHz... the long story short is you'd rather have a higher impedance speaker to be conservative and a lower for more power. When you measure the speaker with a DVM, you read it's resistance not impedance
Practically 4.Ohms safer than 2 or less Ohms.
Draw back is you can't pump as much power out of 4.Ohms than 2 but these integrated chips are mearly capable of pumping 30 to 40Watts RMS on 14Volts.
Serious power amps use a DC-AC-DC Voltage up converter to generate 100+VDC to drive discreet MOSFETS transistors with awesome specs - These amps can drive serious power in 2 or less Ohm speakers!!
I am not saying glitches from high power amps are any good with unstable LIN Modules.... PITA guaranteed!
I'd rather save my hearing than rattle my drums.
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 10-21-2023 at 11:34 AM.
I believe there is a formula for using ohms to figure out resistance. Either way just figuring out replacement speakers is something that should be figured out unless we all wanna pay dealers for several hundred dollars per paper cone speaker and amps that probably arent available or going for a thousand bucks a pop.
I think the OEM Harman-Kardon system is all-but perfect, right from the factory.
But what do I know... I worked only six years in TV and Radio production, and have been in more high-end audio production studios than I can remember.
All this never-ending chase for perfect sound, that the human ear cannot perceive, in an environment full of road noise, tire noise, engine noise, etc... and people who will not put down their cellphones long enough to actually listen...
I believe there is a formula for using ohms to figure out resistance.
Either way just figuring out replacement speakers is something that should be figured out unless we all wanna pay dealers for several hundred dollars per paper cone speaker and amps that probably arent available or going for a thousand bucks a pop.
Once upon a time long-long time ago, young Georg the son of a Buddhist Monk was bored Humming all day non-stop. Right around the end of October, he decided to string garlands throughout the local temple to celebrate Halloween.
He kept on tripping the brakers pannel - This was many moons before low-power LED strings were invented...
Eventually he came up with a relationship between Voltage and Current: U = R x I
A Direct current of 1 Ampere traveling in a 1 Ohm resistor creates a 1 Volt drop.
That much is true!!🤘
The family at that point was well established in the promised land. The brother of Ohm's humming father: uncle James Watt was a powerful man around town...
He saw things differently that did not involve young Georg Ohm's work.
Uncle Watt was all about raw power: P = U x I
The work of 1 Ampere under 1 Volt of electric potential expends 1 Watt of power.
Eventually the poor dude electrocuted himself working outdoors during a hail storm. He was never able to complete the Temple's PA system.
We know from the notes in Georg own lab book that a form of impedance was involved with speaker coils traveling in a fixed magnetic field instead of static resistance.
Just kidding!
The long coil of wire does have a resistance we can measure in Ohms but its properties through the frequencies of 20kHz audio bandwidth are much more than a DC wire resistance.
I got involved with electronics as a teen, smoking speakers, building stereo push-pull amplifiers with bipolar class transistors, band pass speaker filters with caps and coils. Later with 2uF only for best efficiency.
++++ Luxurious networking mix
Right now I am busy sanitizing networking bottlenecks limiting performance without any report codes.
That's directly dealing with solderless gateway modules. It looks like my next victim is going to be MFK: Windshield camera
Then likely some wiring enhancements around the distribution busbars thate screwing the SAM's networking.
These great vehicles suffer from unfortunate details impacting networked features such R-SAM screwing ALT control.
Networking map of W212 modules
My call for action is to figure where performances are lost.
Last edited by CaliBenzDriver; 10-22-2023 at 05:53 PM.
Reason: diagram
Once upon a time the son of a Buddhist Monk was bored Humming all day non-stop. He decided to string garlands to celebrate Halloween throughout the local temple -
He kept on tripping the brakers pannel That was long before low-power LED Silicon junctions were not invented...
Eventually he came up with a relationship between Voltage and Current: U = R x I
A Direct current of 1 Ampere traveling in a 1 Ohm resistor creates a 1 Volt drop That much is true!
🤘
The family was well established in the promised land. The brother of Mr. Ohm humming father, the Uncle James was a powerful guy around town...
He saw things differently that did not involve you Ohm's work. He was all about raw power: P = U x I
The work of 1 Ampere under 1 Volt is called 1 Watt.
Eventually the poor dude electrocuted himself. He was never able to complete the temple's own PA system.
We know from the notes in his own lab book that a form of impedance was involved with speaker coils traveling in a fixed magnetic field instead of static resistance.
The long coil of wire has a resistance but its properties throughout the 20kHz audio bandwidth are much more than a DC wire resistance.
I got involved with electronics smoking speakers and building stereo push-pull amps and band pass filters.
++++ Luxurious networking mix
Right now I am busy sanitizing networking bottlenecks limiting performance without any report codes.
That's directly dealing with solderless gateway modules.
It looks like my next victim is going to be MFK: Windshield camera
Then likely some wiring enhancements around the distribution busbars.
These modern vehicles directly suffer from unfortunate details causing networking jams. My call for action!
Cool story. Have you tried Stabilant 22? A couple of real good automotive diagnostic techs and instructors swear by it. Kinda expensive, but I am going to try on my rear Camera module before soldering the pins.
I understand, it’s expensive. But, people I trust swear by it, I am gonna give it a go
You can benefit from surface contact enhancer where high currents are involved. All the thick cables with Alternator, battery, starter, prefuse box, F/R SAM's.
There's a rewarding opportunity for contact enhancing that's friendly to work on.
That is the passenger side door control modules that feed the high torque window motor.
As it is you can hear the motor laboring slowly with high drop voltage. Once fixed the window winds up quickly with one steady speed. I soldered my DCU.
OBVIOUS #1 RECIPIENT:
The painted shared GND POSTS should get cleaned + liquid enhancer.
We know metals oxidize even the blend of alloys used on our chassis gets dark in less than 5 years - Will you apply liquid engancer to your VIP Modules connectors (ECU, ESP, SAM) ?
I am sure ECU connections would benefit but wonder what exactly happens to solids when fluid evaporates ?? Our ECU is located in the hotest location MB could find (engine crown and above exhaust).
You can benefit from surface contact enhancer where high currents are involved. All the thick cables with Alternator, battery, starter, prefuse box, F/R SAM's.
There's a rewarding opportunity for contact enhancing that's friendly to work on.
That is the passenger side door control modules that feed the high torque window motor.
As it is you can hear the motor laboring slowly with high drop voltage. Once fixed the window winds up quickly with one steady speed. I soldered my DCU.
OBVIOUS #1 RECIPIENT:
The painted shared GND POSTS should get cleaned + liquid enhancer.
We know metals oxidize even the blend of alloys used on our chassis gets dark in less than 5 years - Will you apply liquid engancer to your VIP Modules connectors (ECU, ESP, SAM) ?
I am sure ECU connections would benefit but wonder what exactly happens to solids when fluid evaporates ?? Our ECU is located in the hotest location MB could find (engine crown and above exhaust).
Yes it does help with high amp powers and grounds for certain. I watch diagnostic instructors even though I don't wrench anymore, they also recommend for all connections, especially if the were corroded and cleaned up properly, it's added insurance to better connectivity, even on CAN connections.
As far as ECU, ESP, and SAM, absolutely. I drench high powered and sensitive electronics with Deoxit all the time. Just don't use it on dual action pots like a volume that is also a push button, the soft rubber used on the push button part will desolve with deoxit. Hyundai volume controls cannot be cleaned when the pots get dust and crap in them. And forget about replacements, Mouser doesn't carry anything like them either.
I think the OEM Harman-Kardon system is all-but perfect, right from the factory.
But what do I know... I worked only six years in TV and Radio production, and have been in more high-end audio production studios than I can remember.
All this never-ending chase for perfect sound, that the human ear cannot perceive, in an environment full of road noise, tire noise, engine noise, etc... and people who will not put down their cellphones long enough to actually listen...
Not saying the OEM is bad, that being said have you tried to source the OEM speakers, amps, and head unit? Maybe perfect but Ill take less than perfect for a reasonable price tag, dont want to, but seriously the quality isnt that good.
Not saying the OEM is bad, that being said have you tried to source the OEM speakers, amps, and head unit? Maybe perfect but Ill take less than perfect for a reasonable price tag, dont want to, but seriously the quality isnt that good.
Can't argue with a mind that is already convinced.
10-17-2023, 12:28 PM
Speaker upgrade
) and fantasy 5x pricing through the roof for mainland goodies.
