S-Prihadi

Gents,

I am curious on how actually you guys do it.

I been doing it this way since day 1, I got my "own" car, back in 1983 :

Step 01. Engine must be OFF for more than 4 hours, for me.
Step 02. Pull out the dipstick, clean it well and re-insert dipstick slowly.
Step 03. Pull out dipstick and this is the true engine oil level. Flat level ground surely a must.

Why I am asking this is, I seen many people and even techy on youtube , they seems to use only step 2 and they think that is the level to use , instead of going to step 3.

FYI,
The LOW to MAX on my engine dipstick, that is worth only about 1 liter. My engine oil fill with new oil filter is 6.5 to 6.6 liters, albeit MB WIS stated 7 liters if I remember correctly.




This is a W212, 2015 owner's manual.




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2009 owners manual



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While we are discussing engine oil.............

I said bull**** about the oil consumption figure, because for me to burn approx 200cc of oil, it can only happen on the track and it was 130KM total run , 30 laps approx, over 2 days period.
Unless driver is holding WOT at 2nd or 3rd gear and held 5,500 - 6,000 RPM climbing some super long drive imaginary mountain ,
M276 even 3.0 turbo version never "eat" up any oil for me in my normal driving which has lots of WOT for 1st and 2nd gear, if for 5,000KM oil life/use.
I replace my engine oil at 5,000KM or 6 months or 200 hours, whichever comes first.
To note, M276 3.0 Turbo has better PCV system than M276 3.5NA because of the secondary oil separator in the middle of the V-Bank, so intake manifold is oil free always, as long as PCV system is healthy.


To quote up to 0.8 liters oil consumption per 1,000KM or 621 miles as being "normal", for newbie car owner is a total misleading information.
That means the engine is so "loose" or the PCV is so bad to be able to swallow THAT MUCH OIL per 1,000KM / 621 miles !!!..... and yet it is "normal."
That will make new owner less alert to preventive measure when such oil burn is ignored....because Papa Benz said it is OK-Normal


Thanks

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

You know the ONLY reason they say that is to avoid warranty claims on a new engine. No way should a well built engine consume that much oil in 1000km.

I have found that when I pull out the dipstick first, there is virtually NO oil on it. Yet, when I reinsert it and pull it out, it reads an accurate level. The only part that I disagree with is letting the engine cool down for four hours. Your above page shows to shut down for 5 minutes if at normal operating temp or 30 minutes if not at normal operating temp. I like to wait 3 hours and 59 minutes.

Apexlate

I recently checked the oil on our new to us E350 and I nearly wet myself when I pulled out the the dipstick the first time and saw nothing. Thankfully after reinserting it there was an adequate amount of oil.

CaliBenzDriver

The magic W212 dipstick is always ready to pull and reinsert to read current oil level.

Actually our oil dipstick shows additional interesting information: viscosity and color.


viscous oil drop clings well to edges


color between honey and molasses

The engine dipstick shows how the engine is using its oil.

Surya points out the M276 NA PCV is no match compared to the M276 Turbo PCV that truly keeps oil out of intake.

Burning oil contaminates lambda sensors with carbon. The outcome are lean misfires. ​​​​​​

Compare limited oiling engine (stock) with a normal oil pressure engine (MOD)... differences are low remaining level of liquidity burned black oil.

ColonelKlink

S-P, I do it your way. I do leak oil within 'tolerance'. Thank you for mentioning that tolerance should be close to zero. I have reduced the leak amount by replacing certain engine parts. The slow hunt for oil leak/usage continues.

kajtek1

When I want precise oil level, I pull the dipstick out by few cm on last drive of the day and leave it overnight.
The following morning I push it in and then pull for reading.
When you have good oring on top of the dipstick, the temperature change on the engine can create vacuum, fooling the oil level.
I heard some newer engines require checking oil on hot engine, but I've been doing cold check my whole life.

Chevota

I've mentioned a few times on the forum about the dispstick being basically dry when the car sits overnight or so, and reinserting it gives the actual reading. Both my M276 & M278 do this. I'm glad JettaRed mentioned it, makes me feel less crazy. It was so weird that I had a friend witness it for a sanity check. No clue why.

The vacuum theory by kajtek1 is a good any I spoze, except there is no vacuum. If I check the oil when hot it's fine, so the vacuum theory would mean it pulls oil out of the pan to somewhere, then pulling the dipstick lets it back in.
Where would it pull it to, considering vacuum would be equal everywhere in the eng?
I can see vacuum allowing more oil into the pan, but not less.
My theory is Gremlins, which is only because I got nuthin else.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

The "dry" dipstick thing on the first pull has happened on my 2004 SL500, my 2014 C350, and my 2015 SL400. As mentioned, the first time really shook me up.

Oops! I take that back. The 2004 SL500 did not have a dipstick, per se. It had a tube and you had to get a special mechanic's dipstick, but you didn't leave it in. Those were the days of stupid oil readouts on the dash.

Bruce Hubbard

Yikes. 0.8 litres per 1000km means your sump is empty at 10,000km before you service it
My W212 E250 with a M274 engine never uses any oil from one oil change to the next.
It outperforms a muscle car I owned 50 years ago in terms of acceleration and top speed
That car was a Ford Falcon XT GT with a 302 V8 Windsor motor
The E250 four cylinder with turbo eats it for breakfast

Check the oil level when the motor is cold first thing before you crank it for the day, and the oil has drained back down into the sump
Pull the dipstick out, wipe it, check the colour of the oil, put it back in, pull it out again and take the measurement
Must admit though, I find the type of dipstick Mercedes use makes it difficult to read

kajtek1

The "vacuum" is figure of speech.
Temperature change make air volume change both ways, meaning when you insert the dipstick on cold engine and warm it up, the air will expand and keep the scale dry.

Chevota

The only way I see that making sense is if the dipstick tube was below the oil level. I've never seen an eng do that, it would end in disaster.
Lets say the tube is situated below oil level with the eng off, but above it when running. Then the eng is turned off, oil drains to the pan and tube end is submerged. Now, assuming the O-ring on the dipstick is sealing, the air would cool and suck oil up the dipstick.
If the same scenario but the O-ring does not seal, but the eng is sealed, then it works. The eng is vented. Hmmm, back to Gremlins...

S-Prihadi

Thank you Gents for the info sharing.

I agree with Bruce, I wish the end of oil dipstick is not RED plastic, but white or simple flattened steel with markings like common stiff oil dipstick.
The red color is not good as background for engine oil. Hence I use paper towel as oil color reference. If diesel engine I suppose due to soot it is OK the RED plastic.

On the fact that 1st pull of dipstick shows like empty oil, that I only seen so far on my engine.
Other car engine often dipstick will show MORE oil due to activity in the oil pan, when first time dipstick pulled out....but I wonder why my engine and M278 is showing LITTLE oil instead.
When I am done replacing my plastic oil pan baffle, I will share my dipstick RED plastic end ACTUAL position inside the oil pan and figure it out.

There are 3 types of oil pan for M276 3.0 Turbo, perhaps M276 3.5NA is the same.

2 wheel drive ones, 2 types


Deep at the front. I do not know if this is from E class or S class, which is S400 W222 if S class.


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My version - Deep at the rear


4-matic. Deep in the middle.


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2 types of dipstick. 4-matic or RWD.





CORRECTION :
Aha, I got it. The DEEP FRONT oil pan belongs to W222 S class and some model of W205 I guess.
The bottom sump is PLASTIC !!!!! Dugghhhh











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S-Prihadi

Mercedes M276 Engine never has oil



I wonder if this is the second dipstick pull or the first one ? LOL.
He is FCP Euro Mercedes catalog manager or something along that line.

kajtek1

I took apart OM603 engine and the tube ends like 3mm from the pan bottom. I remember it also having tiny vent hole on it few cm above, but that might be submerged in oil with engine off as well.

mercerized

My dipstick housing has a vent relief pinhole 5 mm below the dipstick oring - fully vented by the time you turn off the engine.

Chevota

Well, it looks like I stand corrected with overwhelming proof. Every time I've seen an eng spray oil out the dipstick tube it was because it was filled above the tube line. Either oil, or water, and they blow the dipstick up, followed by oil, followed by a massive mess. Especially on turbo/blown engines which sometimes manage blow some oil with the tube above the oil.
So all these engines need good enough ventilation to prevent that, even turbo. Mine looks like it's above the oil level, but maybe the tube goes down inside?
I also assumed he dipstick extended past the tube, but obviously for this theory to work the dipstick is shorter than the tube.

If this is the case with mine, what conditions would cause the tube to keep oil out of it after sitting? Keep in mind it doesn't always do it, and all the times it has, it's been sitting overnight.
I play it out in my brain and can't see any scenario where it can push oil out if the tube, only suck it up.
Anyone have any ideas?

I was thinking the red tip was because old school metal ones would often give questionable readings as they catch and/or scrape off on the way out. If the tube is submerged, then I suppose it's just that much worse, so the little fins keep it the center off the tube for best odds. I spoze red because white never stays white, so maybe it's just for looks?

CaliBenzDriver

Our magical dipstick tube has another trick besides keeping the stick dry.

The tube goes all the way down to the bottom of oil sump.

You can suck the engine dry just by sucking from the tube itself. When extracting oil the vacuum hose only needs to seal inside the dipstick tube.

ghlkal

It's not like we really need another confirmation, but ...

Yes, S-Prihadi. that's the way to check the oil. And, yes, there's nothing on the dipstick the first time you pull it out.

Chevota

Dangit Cali, now I'll be forced to look in the drain hole to see where that puppy is. I'm not a fan of vacuuming, but it's actually tempting now you said that. I have a vac a work that can suck 5gal of oil out of a bucket in a few seconds. It's amazing. All I have is a little bitty shopvac, but not sure it can lift that high. I guess it's ~2', which would be asking a lot.

MB2timer; I'd imagine it would take several gallons extra? Even then not sure it would actually hurt it?
Story time: My friend has a tractor and he called me because it was blowing mass smoke out the exhaust, like that was it's job. Runs ok, just mass smoke. So he calls me, I watch it blow smoke. Hmmm... Turn eng off and pull the dipstick, the top of which is about half way up the motor, and it's flowing oil out the hole!
I find out the oil was coming out the vent on the tippy top of the valve cover, then going into the intake. He fires it up with the hose off and oil is coming out the vent. Not foamy oil, or a water mix, but pure oil. The eng is completely 100% full! Note the dipstick didn't get pushed out, or even leak, so there was no real pressure inside.
He tells me it had been doing this for a while, then finally ran out of hydraulic fluid, which he topped off and still drove it before calling me.
So now I know what, but how? The hydraulic pump is driven by the eng and is mounted up front like a power steering pump. Except it's not belt driven, its gear. So the timing cover basically extends out the side to cover the front of the pump. Turns out the front seal of the pump gave out and was pumping oil into the en.
Why no damage/hyrdo? As one cyl is coming down, another is going up exactly the same, so while it must have been quite active in there, no pressure. Not sure how long he drive it like that, but it was a while. He said that despite the smoke, it ran fine, so he kept going. Uggg... Like people who continue to drive when the car overheats.
The replacement seal blow out and this all repeated, btw, because you can't tell until the smoke comes out. He then bought a new pump and apparently it's fixed, and has been using it ever since. I think that was ~2 years ago?
Knowing him, I bet he didn't drain/replace the oil, but probably just let it drain out the dipstick until it stopped. He's also the type that doesn't change oil very often, if at all. His spendy Onan generator stopped one day, and again called me. There was some oil in it, if you consider tar to be oil. He admitted he not only never changed it, he never even checked it. I imagine the replacement gen will suffer the same fate.

S-Prihadi

Oke..........

I sent my boroscope to "kiss" the oil level at crankcase. Probably 3-4 mm into oil.

Made marking on my boroscope to make it equal length to the oil dipstick.




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ABOVE : That dark ring is where the oil level starts.



BELOW : Oil level is closer now, hence my camera is out of focus because it is too close to oil.




LEFT image : The camera has barely touch the oil. RIGHT image : Camera into the oil like 3-4mm ish, hence the reddish brown of the LED lights illuminating the oil.




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Reference insertion depth or also start of oil level.




NOTE : This engine been OFF like a week.
So the red plastic tip of oil disptick , 80% of it or FULL mark is inside oil bath a 100%.
Still can't answer why 1st time reading oil dipstick can produce very low oil level ?? ........ while indeed the red plastic tip is technically inside an OIL BATH at all times when engine been off say 1 hour or more..

........ enter the twilight zone

ygmn

IF the allowable range of oil is about 1liter; why do yall wait so long to check level after engine was running?

I mean 3-5 mins is more than enough.
by waiting overnight or hours you just may read a few mm closer to full mark that which is how much oil?

What is length between low and full mark in mm and divide that into 1000 ml to get ml of oil per mm distance on the dipstick.
then we would know.
Then someone ambitious could measure oil every 15 or seconds after engine off to record oil level with respect to time after engine is off.
So then we would know what is appropriate amount of time to wait.

My issue is getting old and seeing well without cheaters or in crappy lighting actually seeing the oil while you twist and hold dipstick horizontal so oil level does not change.

Bruce Hubbard

I must admit, I'm always fearful that one day I will pull the dipstick out
and that bit of red plastic will be in the bottom of the sump

The dipstick tube that the dipstick is in, goes down below the sump oil level
The red plastic gauge is shaped each end so that the middle of it stays centred in the tube.
The red plastic is in the tube, not in the sump as such
The PCV crankcase vacuum sucks a very small air leak past the o-ring seal at the top of the dipstick
That air draws the oil out of the tube, and draws it off the dipstick gauge
When the engine is shut down, the seal at the top of the dipstick is doing its job
There's now pressure in the tube that has been caused by the vacuum in the sump and that is now stopping the oil from rising back up the tube, pull the dipstick out and there is no oil on it
When you have pulled it out you have broken the seal
Then the oil can rise up the dipstick tube
Then when you put the dipstick back in again and pull it out, you have oil on it and can take the measurement
So you need to pull the dipstick twice

Chevota

Bruce: "If" there was vacuum in the case, then it would suck a vacuum on the tube. Then when shutdown it would suck oil up the tube, not push it down.
If air were to slip past the O-ring one way, then it can go the other. Plus there's heat discussed earlier, which would also suck oil up the tube after sitting.

ygmn; you're supposed to check it after xx time siting to get a good read. I forget the time but assumed it was to let the oil drain out of the filter etc.

Bruce Hubbard

Imagine it like a car piston in a cylinder
Suck down (air intake), valve closes, push up (air compression)
When the crankcase vacuum is gone the oil tries to rise up the tube
but it can't because there is pressure in the tube (not vacuum)
Different forces on the o-ring each way v. time
Oil got sucked off the dipstick by the vacuum

Check it before you crank it to drive it for the day
that way all of the oil has drained back into the sump

Chevota

So a magic O-ring that allows air in, thanks to vacuum that doesn't exist.
Lets say that happened, and the eng is running and the tube is full of air, no oil.
Turn eng Off, it cools and sucks oil up the tube.
So no matter how you look at it, the level should be correct, or too high.

I suppose maybe if the eng seals itself up after shutdown, then the level could read low, but how is that possible?