CaliBenzDriver

Rick, you know well the complex job of engine lubricants... our M276 engine works best with stable viscosity. Reduced viscosity being unfavorable, there are other options to concider.


As soon as oil is burnt by "W40.1" borderline viscosity, its polymer chains get severed into lower viscosity W39,8,7,6,5... a vicious loop that accelerate burning oil thinner.

​​​​​​Advanced engine oils can provide chemical lubrication effective regardless of viscosity. Unfortunately our engines VVT Gears and tendioners do not run well with limited heat removal.


All engine lubricants do shade viscosity in the course of aging - Knowing all that what can we do ?

- A - Replace fresh oil when quarts of burnt oil vaporize into smoke. This prevents dirty valves!

- B - Begin with a better matched viscosity away from "vicious loop".

- C - Boost viscosity with 100mL shots (MOD-2.1 5000.Mi test drive).

MOD-2.1 oil at 4700 Miles... looks new !


> UN-APPROVED FRONTIER:
Having tested "MB Approved" 5w40, I now favor a 10W40 non MB-229.5 listed viscosity with an option for booster shots as needed to support cooling viscosity.
Perhaps a 15W40 may not require any mixing....

Rickman30

Could not have said it better Cali.

I am attempting an audience with Baxter machine, the maker of the oil filter housing adaptor with check valve for the 3.6 Pentastar and other Mercedes engines about an adaptor for our engines. Would help the start-up issue by preventing oil drain back into the sump when shut off, as well as more mod possibilities. The only issue I see is the filter itself, would have to use a spin on type filter.

On the "non 229.5 approved oil" are you doing oil analysis every change? keep us posted on your findings. I hate being so limited to what I can use. It's like fuel around here, circle K is buying up all the stations close to me and I refuse to put a low tier fuel in my car.

CaliBenzDriver

I hear you Rick, that makes complete sense.

Used oil analysis is a positive way to see how engine bearings are holding up or coming apart.

How do ppl use that information??
they keep driving thin black oil with confidence because it's "MB Approved" for extended service

I do favor using a modern oil with chemical lubrication package, well balanced not too little calcium, phosphorus, boron not too much ZDDP - All of this is mandatory!

There's very little mystery left about what constitute a reliable engine lubricant. We know what causes damage. It's unnecessary to look for metal traces to prevent damages. Only our choices can prevent known issues.

Personally I favor an oil viscosity that does not burn into vapors. The oil film combined with chemistry protect frictions better than either or separately.
I don't think a low viscosity thin film is superior... being wrong before!
​​​​​

Rickman30

Don't worry, I'm a card carrying member of the been wrong club too.

I started using oil analysis like Mr'. Speed mentioned, first sample is the unused fresh from container to compare the used oil to, monitoring wear is based on the performance of that oil.
My goal is an oil that maintains labeled viscosity, reduced or maintained low wear, and a lack of contaminates usually caused by failed oil. I get people use it to monitor engine wear, but there is so much more information there. It can literally tell you if your engine likes your choice in oil or not. My goal is make this thing my very last car, and hopefully, leave someone else with a good car when I've moved on to pushing up daisies.

pierrejoliat

Good choice Cali, just remember if mixing, do it with the same brand, as I know your aware all synthetics are not made the same, so mixing them would be bad!

CaliBenzDriver

Rick, we don't want you to go take a dirt-nap, your friends need you here with like minded spirits.

CaliBenzDriver

yes, for sure Pierre and I trust your expertise + recommendations 100%!

I am well ready to quit boosting viscosity.
I only did it to test assumptions.
I now understand the cause of burnt vaporized oil

I want the same 10w40 oil you like!

pierrejoliat

Glad I could help! I like the Amsoil best, but It's more than twice the price

CaliBenzDriver

Thank you Pierre.

Amsoil really developed their product lines... is that the oil you got delivered by Walmart ??

Their premium group IV stock will require a matching PAO if I need to boost lost viscosity, you know me

pierrejoliat

I wish, it's around 60.00 for a gallon, you can find coupons or they have specials on occasion, they have a membership plan also, saves like 25%. Walmart has four kinds of 10W40, but the Mobil One is around 23.00 for five quarts, hard to beat, I do change oil every 5K miles. And yes, group IV, I believe the high mileage oils are group V

Westlotorn

Oil change done, 20-50W installed. Very surpised by the color change in my oil that only had maybe 1300 miles on it when removed. I expected very clean oil and it came out dark. Now I need to let it sit overnight and see what the rattle sounds like tomorrow. Actually hoping the rattle is not there to hear tomorrow! Fingers crossed.

CaliBenzDriver

yes, this will be an interesting test results on 20w50.

Your previous oil was already showing burnt shades at 1300.Mi.
The thicker oil will prevent that easily. Stable viscosity will help the ECU deliver solid hot/cold performance as temps will be well regulated.


Engine response maybe a little jerky during acceleration due to VVT overshooting mapped position with unexpected pressure.

S-Prihadi

Nice SP rated , albeit not yet having MB299.5 approval. I would respect SP rating more than MB229.5 if I have to choose only 1, since I am having a turbocharger.
South East Asia gets very little offering from Mobil 1 oil family variant.

MB oil list is doing massive update. Its 229.5 is practically only SP rated oil allowed, it seems, based on Motul and Mobil list.

I think this year we are getting improved oil quality due to SP rating getting more common across all brands.
GDI + turbocharger ..... hhhmmmm, need SP oil. May 2020 SP rating introduced,...took them 4 years to make SP rated oil easier to obtain now.

That means the car manufacturers must have been requesting SP standard since 2018 ?

Mass production ,
Audi direct injection with turbo , supposedly started in 2004 with 2.0 TFSI.
BMW direct injection with turbo , supposedly started in 2006 with N54
For Audi and BMW I do not know their early GDI fuel pressure.

MB direct injection 120 BAR with turbo, would be M271.8, a 1.8 liter inline 4. As early as 2009. In E or Class W212/W204 C180 to C250 CGI and E200 to E250 CGI.

MB direct injection 200 BAR with turbo, probably M278 and M157 is the first mass production one, if M278 supposedly in 2011 in an S500 and CLS500.
M157 in 2011 in an S63 AMG and CL63 AMG


Audi first gen 2.0 TFSI is known for lots of issue with timing chain , so I read.
I wonder who has the most database of LSPI related damage ? Supposedly smaller cc are the one prone to LSPI, as in 2 liter or less or 1.6 liter or less ?

If the big 3 German brands are the prime mover for SP oil rating and the ILSAC GF-6A, I wonder who is the biggest pusher ?


So, we can also blame GDI for early wear and tear of VVT mechanism. It is after all part of the timing system.


SP rating goal is clear :

Introduced in May 2020, designed to provide protection against low-speed pre-ignition (LSPI), timing chain wear protection,
improved high temperature deposit protection for pistons and turbochargers, and more stringent sludge and varnish control.

API SP with Resource Conserving matches ILSAC GF-6A by combining API SP performance with improved fuel economy,
emission control system protection and protection of engines operating on ethanol-containing fuels up to E85.


This is from Lubrizol. Lake Speed Jr said this is one of the world's biggest oil additive supplier and only 3 companies supply additive for the whole world.

Must read below..........

GDI Soot
https://360.lubrizol.com/2015/GDI-Soot-A-New-Challenge

Westlotorn

Day 1 start up, only driven 5 or 6 miles yesterday on new oil. Start up still had minor rattle, my guess, 70% less than before, quieter but being picky, some was still there for the first 15 seconds of engine run time. This is with 20-50W synthetic in the engine. We will see how it ages and if it makes the rattle better or maybe worse with time.

FYI: the lightweight oils are used for the EPA gas mileage improvement not so your engine lasts longer. Manufacturers can measure an improvement in MPG with a simple change from 10-40 to 0-40 or even 0-20. If the car still makes it out of warranty and gets higher MPG numbers they consider it a win. If we (owners) want our engines to last longer a little thicker oil might be beneficial.

Before jumping to heavier oils some learning is necessary. Example: Ford dropped the oil requirement to a 5-20W in the 4.6L V8 several years ago. Many owners did not like this and switched to a 10-30W. The Oil Pump Ford chose to use was light duty designed for the 5-20W oils. It did not work well with 10-30W in cold weather and some owners started losing Rod Bearings.
Most of these were in areas where the morning cold temps were dropping below 30F. Warmer climate owners did not have this failure.
Melling made an improved oil pump which allowed the owner to use any weight of oil in this engine but the factory pump could not handle the change to thicker oil. So advice would be to know more before making any changes. Don't jump to 20-50W because I did. There are risks involved. I still hope it might work in my car for a simple solution.

Why do these Great Mercedes 3.5L engines need 8.5 Quarts of oil but still have valve train noise issues? GM makes a 6.2L engine with 440 HP that takes 7 quarts of oil and has no valve train noise? I had one in an Escalade. Driving on the Autobahn at extended periods at High Speed the extra oil would allow better oil cooling for sure but still, it is a 3.5L engine.

I also read in my manual yesterday while looking up the capacity for an oil change that the 3.5L will consume as much as 1 quart of oil in 600 miles in normal operation??? The EPA has been pushing manufacturers to reach 20,000 miles per quart of oil since the year 2000 to help clean up our air. My car is a 2012. Mine does not burn oil at this time but I thought this was an odd statement for Mercedes to put in the manual. Must be to avoid repairing oil burners under warranty. I will report back as time goes on about the morning start up rattle.

JettaRed

iTrader: (1)

My M276.957 3.5L NA engine takes about 6.5 liters. Does yours actually take 8.5 qts?

The 1 qt per 600 miles is a CYA. I think that if that was ever the case, there would be huge public backlash. Back in the day, I had a 2000 Jetta with a 2.0L VW engine that did burn through oil and was told the same story, though it didn't burn that much. I know for sure I would not buy a vehicle that had a prevalent oil burning problem.

Westlotorn

I read it would take 8.5 quarts, on install I stopped at 7, was still low so I added more, did not measure exactly at this point but pretty sure I was over 8 quarts when it read full. This is with a filter change and after first start up to make sure the filter and galleries were full.

CaliBenzDriver

I used to wonder the same thing!

Why a new MB engine could burn 1 or 2 quarts over 5K ??

The answer is the oil is getting vaporized by the extreme heat accumulated in dry pistons, back into the intake plenum onto dirty valves.

-- Not the loose piston rings...

-- Not the hardened valve seals..

-- The oil pump reduced pressure combined with low viscosity lubricant is proven to causes oil consumption.

Normal oil pressure is available above 3500.RPM

Westlotorn

Day 2 cold start, car parked between 2 vehicles so the noise should be amplified. Started the car with a door open to help hear the noise. I thought I detected a little noise for only 5 seconds or so on initial start up. Today I would say it is 90% better than prior to the oil change. Only drove it 15 miles yesterday but it also passed smog test clean yesterday. So far liking the oil change. Hoping it does not get noisy with age. Fingers crossed.

Westlotorn

I don’t know about your theory Cali. I spent 30 years working with a manufacturer, we built parts for the OEM and for the afermarket. Internal engine parts, Gaskets, Piston Rings, Pistons, Engine Bearings, Valves, Valve train parts, The parts we made were used by OEM’s all over the world including Mercedes. Up until 2012 I worked on the Automotive side/gas engines, after 2012 till 2019 I worked on the Heavy Duty side/ Diesel engines.

Worked with the engineers who designed these parts. We had 26 Dyno’s doing Piston Ring Development work at one location, had several dyno’s doing gasket development at another location and at the Engine Bearing Test lab we had 5 dyno’s that normally ran 24/7 doing engine bearing development.

If GM, Ford etc had an issue with oil consumption they did not solve the problem, they came to the manufacturer and asked for help. Our engineering staff would come up with solutions. At one point we developed a new Silicone enhanced aluminum engine bearing, the EPA was pushing this technology because they were banning Copper Lead and Tin, the most popular engine bearing materials at that time, this new aluminum/silicone bearing proved to last 3 times longer than the other existing materials. Our engineering staff took this development to Mercedes, we also owned the German plant that was supplying Mercedes Engine Bearings at that time. The German engineers gave the new bearings a full wear test and claimed the test was no good because their bearing failed while the new bearing looked brand new. They repeated the test 3 times, 3 times their bearing failed while the new bearing looked brand new. Finally the big boss looked at his engineers and told them no more tests, this product is obviously better. It is very hard to get a German engineer to accept anything new. They are very good, some of the Worlds best but very set in their ways and stubborn to work with.

I mention this to say, I do have some OEM and aftermarket experience with the people that solve Oil consumption issues. Oil gets into the chamber 2 ways, past the piston rings or past the Intake Valve Stem Seals. Some oil is held on the cross hatch in the cylinder for lubrication and that oil is metered out by the piston ring package.
I have been out of the industry since 2019 but as of 2019 I have never heard of vaporized oil and burning 2 quarts in 5,000 miles being normal.
For over 20 years now the EPA has been demanding engines do not leak oil and do not burn oil. The accepted oil consumption is still at 20,000 miles per quart as far as I know. This is to keep the air and environment clean.

Catalytic converters would fail if exposed to 2 quarts in 5,000 miles for any extended period. Some engines consume more as they break in but today modern Moly rings seat perfectly after the first acceleration under load. On Dyno tests the blow by stops after the first pull on the dyno. Some manufacturers still use Chrome Top Rings, These do take longer to break in or seat. As I was leaving the industry they were developing top rings that used crushed Diamond on the ring face, it was proving to seal the best while offering very low wear on the cylinders. I do not know if it has been introduced in modern engines.

As part of this job I was required to have ASE certification so when we spoke to customers they knew we held the same certification that they carried. I was ASE certified in Engine Performance, Engine Repair, and Gold Certified in Engine Machine Work. In many areas of the car I have no experience but inside the engine I worked with some of the best and tried to learn a little from them.

A manufacturer, like Mercedes, GM, Ford, Toyota, any of them. They do not manufacture many of their parts. Aftermarket companies compete to get these contracts. It used to be they bought Piston rings, Pistons etc separately and assembled them at the factory. In 2019 they were asking for a Power Cylinder to be supplied by the vendor. Power Cylinder was a Piston, with Rings, connecting rod with Bearings all assembled ready to drop into the engine. This was so they could assemble engines faster. GM had one engine plant that was building 10,000 GM V8 engines per day.

I knew Race Teams that had switched to Zero Weight Oils to make more Horsepower, these were Drag Race Teams not long distance racers. Some had switches that would Turn OFF the Oil pump right as they hit the gas for the drag race, so they went full throttle for 8 seconds with no oil pump working in the engine. Said they made 40 more horsepower doing this.

I mention this to say with some background I am not aware of Oil vaporizing. The EPA does monitor manufacturing and for the most part Oil Consumption has been almost eliminated.

S-Prihadi

I think Cali's engine were eating/consuming oil from PCV system.
If one open up intake manifold and throttle body and all supporting pipes, plenum yada yada and has decent oil amount, that is from the PCV.
I have to admit my engine M276.8 3.0 Turbo has a better PCV version with secondary oil separator , compared to M276 3.5NA.

My engine never consume any oil since day 1 and to today. The only time I had to add 250cc of oil or 1/4 quart was because I went to the race track for 2 days and 20+ laps.

I use engine oil max 5,000KM or 200 hoursor or 6-8 months whichever comes first...that is the SOP for the last 3 years.
Used to be up to 12 months previous to that.

Been Mobil 1 0W40 since day 1 and to now.
Only this year the Mobil 1 0W40 sold in my country got the SP rating and they changed the label, they call it now Triple Action Power+.

Rickman30

I don't always see eye to eye with members here, everyone has a right to express their thoughts and beliefs concerning these cars, but I wouldn't discredit Cali, there's a lot of testing and trial and error by him and others here that have resulted in positive outcomes. And I'm not trying to discredit your credentials at all, I respect all you have learned and share with us all, it doesn't go unnoticed, just asking to not discredit his or anyone else's help either. Because, in the first place you asked for help here, and most here are eager to help, right or wrong, but help none the less, and only wish to hopefully prevent mistakes that others have made, expensive mistakes.

That said, several oil manufactures do put the percentage of oil evaporation in their technical data, but many bury it under a different name or omit it all together. It's why we do oil analysis, which evaporation rates are tested and documented. Helps if you send a fresh unused sample to test same batch being used in the engine tested.

Here's a link on the subject of testing the evaporation rate. Notice in there it speaks of higher viscosity and the negative effects from it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noack_volatility_test

While using heavier oil may reduce noise, the problem of oil draining back to the sump then the time of being pumped back into the engine at startup still exists, and you're adding new problems into the mix by using oil thicker than required, things like poor circulation, increased wear, increased oil usage, poor emissions, poor fuel economy are expected.

But please don't take my word, Tribologists and lubrication specialists can say all this, with examples, far better than an old hillbilly like myself ever could. So please, seek their wisdom as I'm no expert. And maybe I'm way off base. Maybe I'm not. If I can help one person...

Hope this helps

Westlotorn

I thought of the PCV while working earlier, that should have been listed as a 3rd method of oil entering the intake and we have seen bad Mercedes PCV systems that fill an intake with oil. BMW has the same issue on some of their engines.

I clearly stated I was trying 20-50W at my own risk and I know the risks involved but I hate the start up rattle. No dis respect to anyone just shared another opinion from experience and I am not an engineer but I worked with some of the best and tried to learn from them.

I have also witnessed cases where the engineers designed product that would not work, customers would report the shortcomings and the staff would work to fix it. Most times though the guys were spot on with product they manufactured.

And, 20-50 will not fix a broken actuator, I am just looking to quiet a problem with oil drawback issues. Hope this is clear.

CaliBenzDriver

I am sure a lot of us appreciate your long automotive career with SAE creds. You are familiar with many related topics and easily understand new Mercedes specifics.

The question was raised that missing quarts of oil are not vaporized in the intake plenum of M276 3.5-NA...

I know this is surprising like many other pet topics around here...


> The reasons I pin the disappearing quarts on VAPORIZATION for M276-NA are based on the following evidences:

-- The intake plenum is filled with half quart of standing oil not yet sucked in by cylinder vaccum.

-- The throttle valve has a built-in drip pan to collect oil hoosing back out of intake.

-- ​​​​​​I am sure you've heard about "walnut blasting"... to remove heavy carbon deposits from intake valves.

-- I have shown that when oil stops burning, consumption entirely stops.

That leads me to conclude the basic PCV design on M276-NA is defective from factory as oil migration starts at 0 Miles, not 100kMi from aged parts. (M276-TT has a multi-stage PCV filtration that works well).

-- If it was rings... oil would stay unseen in cylinders.

-- If it was valve stems... oil would not pool in plenum.


I said "vaporized burnt oil" but oil does not burn.... so that is impossible, right?


While we're here... I always wonder why bearings damage happen to the cylinders pair right next to oil pump?
I honestly don't know the answer but can guess oil pressure is plentiful near pump to build a protective bearing film.

I am sure a lot of us would appreciate your expertise on this RIP issue.

Westlotorn

I am not aware of Mercedes Bearing issues but I am pretty new to these, worked on my first less than 3 years ago.

When looking at bearing failures you tear down the engine, lay out the bearings by location side by side. Rods and Mains all in order as they were located in the engine when running.

Study the bearings, you can usually see a trend. Normally the bearing furthest from the oil pump shows the most damage but you need to dig deeper and see how the oil is distributed.
If the oil galleries feed one side before the other the damage is normally at the furthest point.

If another component in the engine is failing and the metal particles from that failure are the cause of bearing failure the bearings closest will see the most metal particles and fail first.
Techs will say that is not possible because of the filter. On every cold start the oil filter is by passed until the oil warms enough to circulate through the filter so it is very possible to happen.

A map of the oil galleries might answer your question on bearing failures.
You did not mention if the issue is with the Mains or Rod bearings, is it the thrust bearing failing? All have unique possible answers.

Some oil does get past the valve stem seals and after 100,000 miles it is common on Direct Injected engines to have build up on the back of the intake valves. I have seen TPee shaped oil deposits that choke off the intake valve port. Common in lots of Direct Injected engines, VW, Audi, Mercedes, GM, Ford. Yep walnut blasting is a common cure for the build up.

CaliBenzDriver

Mark, a lot of us would like to help you resolve the cold start rattle. If we stay focused we can make progress with your OEM experience.

The thick 20w50 oil pretty much rules out, leaky new tensioners.

> RECAP:

1. 4x VVT are new or tested ok
2. not oil issue, fresh 5w40 in use
3. new tensioners + check valves
4. HPFP + Roller tested fine
5. Not oil issue, fresh 20w50 in use

> WHAT ELSE??
- I don't recall the primary tensioner to ever being known to rattle.

- I am going to guess your old stiff HPFP could be knocking the VVT lock internally.

- Another candidate is the oil valve commanded by the VVT Solenoids. It's not popular but worth not overlooking. How are these designed to fail?

Can you record sound clips of this issue?
Master Surya can analyze to derive source frequency - This will help us all uncover the root cause.


Let's try to make a positive difference. Results is what we're here for.