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To Pierre,
I think this is why the car will sit taller for a few weeks before spring settle down.
CAR IS ON QUICK JACK. So suspension is in full droop mode aka hanging......
OLD spring on the left side.
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New spring on the RIGHT. Spring end actually fully kissing the shiny metal end stop when I compressed it with spring compressor during install.
But in full droop mode, its like below : Notice how the overall round coil is not centered well like oldie one.
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I tried pulling the spring so that it will sit pretty...., nope it goes back to where it was.
Only when I raised the suspension using jack, I jacked up at the hub.....then the spring end kiss the end stop.
However overall parking is not as good as oldie one, see that my new spring has tendency to be more forward to front bumper or east by photo.
ABOVE IS WHEN SUSPENSION IS JACKED UP A BIT.
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If Fully droop. After I tried pulling the spring west ward and north west.
Spring goes back to its old parking spot hahahahah
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The old vs new of and for REAR RIGHT. WIth blue tape is new spring. Label is Q5. My old spring label is Q4.
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Basically the old spring un-compressed is like 3mm shorter at best compared to new.
OLD
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NEW
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I can't measure Kg per 1 millimeter compression between them. No fancy tool for that.
I bet the older one would be weaker a bit.
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Last edited by S-Prihadi; Apr 10, 2025 at 12:09 PM.
Both same P/N. New one is genuine, not after market.
Here is my measurement using caliper, accurate to 1.5mm. Position wise its tricky to measure this spring with a caliper of only 210mm jaw opening.
I use the green stripe as marking point.
Break the measurement in two steps. NEW SPRING, measurement A.
NEW SPRING, measurement B.
The one with P/N label is the new one. It will be for LEFT REAR. The new one I measured yesterday already installed last nite as RIGHT REAR.
The old one above is from RIGHT REAR.
I guess thickness of 14.75mm as per SKF, is the steel coil before painting . I get 14.91mm with the paint.
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Eventually spring get weakened. Has to be. Rough guess the spring has done 5.8+ millions oscillation-compression.
I can't average the magnitude of the compression, surely bad roads and high speed on wavy roads will increase the magnitude of the compression.
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I am chasing RIGHT REAR camber drift, hence I bought these rear springs + lower and upper shims.
My camber arms are both new for rear.
Both bushings at rear wheel carrier/knuckle are new.
The bushing at subframe for spring arm is also new.
At 16 and 17th Alignment, the rear right camber shows the drift.
Yes, I use alignment for tracking my suspension wear and tear , out of 17th times, 5 times was learning for front camber and caster correction bolts use....LOL.
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To the best of my ability I was measuring ride height using caliper, for the rear suspension. Hoping to see minor differences between L and R.
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Being a RHD car, my car corner weights are heavier on the right side and more so when I am driving alone.
Scale used was this one. I borrowed from a friend who used to race track and rally, so he has to have this scale.
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I sure hope these new rear springs will bring back my rear camber to spec......
And if K-MAC is reading this, PLEASE DO NOT ADVERTISE YOUR PRODUCT IN THIS POST......, Thank you Sir.
Whole night last nite, the new REAR SPRING was loaded to 50% ride height.
Today I pushed it near to ride height for some minutes.
Now the spring sits better and the end stop get kissed by the spring even at suspension full droop.
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I bought this spacer-PCD changer device as ways to have more movement control of rear wheel carrier/knuckle.. by having wrenches as pry bar or as torque extension.
Also I won't scratch or damage my brake rotor disc mating surface to wheel, which must be kept super flat and good, otherwise at high speed one may get vibration.
Also more surface area for jacking up, safer this way.
Cool! I like using alignment data to access/track suspension wear as well. It gives a good read-out specially when shopping for used cars. I hope your new springs solves the camber drift. Apparently your rear ride height is now even on both sides. My old W204 had a rear camber drift that I could never figure out. I've replaced the rear camber arms but it didn't change a thing. My last suspect was the rear subframe or its bushings, but everything measured out ok. I never considered measuring the rear springs. To be honest, I've always considered sprigs to only be affected by rust and not a normal wear item.
Weird, I did not have this, I put the top in first seated, then turned the coil until the bottom sat correctly and when I put weight on it, it sat perfectly on both sides
Yes, my right rear was siting higher than my left when completed, I went back under to check if both springs were seated fully and correctly in their retainers, they were, now, a month after install both springs are down 3/8th's of an inch in ride height and they are within an 1/8" in height from each other, so the right rear which was initially higher than the left rear by 3/8"" is now less than an 1/8" higher,
Yes, mine both cracked on the highway at speed and a full trunk load, likely more from rust than fatigue, so I did not have the opportunity to verify length of old vs. new
RIGHT REAR - NEW SPRING
Confirmation of spring top shim, the rubber one to be sitting well at its end stop.
Spring is not 100% kissing this rubber end stop even after pre-loaded 50% of right height and while lower side with steel shim, the spring end have kissed its end stop.
Rubber top shim was installed on spring end tight and kissed, when spring was still un-compressed.
If Uncompressed
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Condition of OLD RIGHT and OLD LEFT rubber top shim. Most right side is new one.
My old shim I coat it with silicone grease, hoping it will work better. I mean the steel spring easily slide into its end stop or rubber shim can park itself easy at the plastic cup at chassis.
Blue tape is RIGHT side. Yellow tape is LEFT side.
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Condition of bottom shim, the steel one. L is left, R is Right. Shiny un-marked is new one.
Right side one is the worst.
I do not know how the right side one grow its moustache
Maybe too much compression tore the metal like that.
Specific to RIGHT REAR spring arm, the bowl holding the metal shim, there seems to be a high spot creating that moustache at steel shim.
ABOVE and below. New lower steel shim tested with a new spring and compressed with spring compressor . Observe the fricion mark from high spot on the spring arm bowl/valley.
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My LEFT REAR Spring arm bowl/valley does have the same friction mark too, but not as bad as RIGHT REAR. Thus its steel shim does not look as bad as RIGHT REAR.
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But orientation of pressure to spring's end stop for RIGHT vs REAR spring is different. Green X is spring end stop. Cyan arrow is front of the car.
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Lets see more of the steel shim from different angle
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Left and Right stacked on top a new shim.
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Stacking 2 new ones.
Old Left on top old right
Old right on top of old left
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Length/Height of LEFT REAR, old spring
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Last edited by S-Prihadi; Apr 12, 2025 at 10:15 PM.
Reason: ADD INFO
Interesting, both my steel bottom shims were almost non-existent, they were rusted beyond being functional and came out in pieces, but I'm in the snow belt of the Great Lakes.
I almost did not complete this spring replacement job..... my quick jack, the LEFT side has solenoid issue.
The hydraulic cylinders is not holding oil thus not holding height when used without its lock.
I use the quick jack to assist my wheel stand when doing ride height torqueing of all the bolts on the suspension arm which I have to loosened.
When one wheel is removed, Quick Jack takes the load..
3 wheels I do not work on, get the wheel stand.
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Quick Jack itself on its own can not be used for ride height work as the weight carrier is not the car suspension, but the 4 jack pads at quick jack which is 4 jack pads location of W212
Below is when using only Quick Jack ( QJ ) and then we raise the rear suspension spring arm for ride height adjustment.......... the QJ rear portion will be lifted up
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And the front of the car goes nose down like Kamikaze pilot hahahaha
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That is all for today..... me need to troubleshoot my beloved Quick Jack.
Okey dokey, Quick Jack issued solved.
Back to the springs.
Top rubber shim.......
RIGHT REAR. I think its like 3mm more to kissing point
LEFT REAR, kissed. Whitish stuff the wax mould release I guess.
The REAR LEFT when first installed with new spring, the same as the REAR RIGHT, lower side spring end was spread away from metal shim end stop.
Again, it was actually "locked" by spring compressor to kiss end stop.
Load the spring to ride height and all good and stay good even in suspension full droop.
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I hate torqueing this M21 nut+bolt at spring arm knuckle/wheel carrier side.
Working room too little and the torque is highest of all is this M21 size. 80NM and 90 degrees. The 90 degrees is a pain when working height so limited.
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Only that type of head of a torque wrench can fit in.
I can't wait for those new rear springs to settle down and I would also missed reading the alignment value during its "tallest" spring state.
I will do alignment again in say 1-2 months and 500KM later. It is so cheap and fun for me. US$20 including tip, how much cheaper can it be.
Hunter Machine 4 camera model, 3D alignment..... what more can I ask for .
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* Igonre the red or yellow color/warning. The menu is not for my 677 suspension for this machine. It is a generic W212 only. Dumb-azz local Hunter alignment machine distributor poor database.
The facts :
Tired spring aka shorter under normal load, will effect camber , as in more negative camber.
Boys in Mazda Miata forum spoke of rule of thumb of 0.5 degree extra negative cambler per 1 inch of lowered ride height.
17th alignment with old spring vs 18th wheel alignment with new springs : Fuel was low, only 10 liters max in tank
My left camber is UP or positive by 10' minute or 0.16 degree. Was -1* 28' becoming -1* 18'.
My right camber is UP or positive by 15' minute or 0.25 degrees. Was -2* 05' becoming -1* 50'.
Rear ride height as is now ( spring supposedly not settled yet ), is taller by 19.39mm for LEFT side and 21.9mm for RIGH side.
My front caster actually improved a bit too, closer to spec.
I am still not happy about the L vs R camber difference being 32' minute,which is already more by 2' minute or 0.03 degree of maximum limit.
I replaced both bushings at wheel carrier/knuckle and at the subframe side for the spring arm. I also have replace new Camber Arm 3,700KM ago.
If I were to replaced another rear suspension arm/s, I would replace this time the STRUT ROD aka RADIUS ROD aka item #350 and Thrust Arm aka Pushing Strut aka item #540.
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However, the bad news is, to replace the STRUT ROD aka RADIUS ROD aka item #350, I need the subframe to be lowered, as there is no working room otherwise.
I don't mind dropping the subframe, because I need to do that anyway to replace all the 4 bushings. I got all the 4 bushings and the special bushings tool already.
Its about physically am I ready to do it say this year ? or early next year ? Ever since I got Covid, my stamina been down like Low Battery at 40% and
I had a undetected minor brain stroke discovered back in late 2023.
Lacunar infarct or lacunar stroke. It's a type of stroke that occurs when a small blood vessel deep within the brain is blocked, often by a blood clot.
This can lead to a variety of symptoms depending on the affected brain area, such as weakness, numbness, or difficulty with coordination.
I went to the doctor for my carpal tunnel syndrome and he noticed by right lips end is down a tiny bit. Like my rear right camber I guess ....LOL
So i did full MRI BRAIN and MSCT / CTA BRAIN immediately and that is how I knew I HAD that mini stroke, but I / them do not know when ????
I did not collapsed or anything of that sort ( hence I do not know I had the mini stroke ) but me wife did tell me that I once for short period of time went into like memory lapse mode...something like that.
I asked my wife what I been doing the past hours, because I could not remember.
Above is the reason I did not drive Jakarta-Bali-Jakarta end of 2023. NOT SAFE. I often get like mild vertigo.
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Anyhow, back to the suspension. STRUT ROD aka RADIUS ROD aka item #350
If for RIGHT side :
If LEFT side STRUT ROD aka RADIUS ROD aka item #350
Both NUT and bolt side, no tools can work on it if rear subframe is still on the car. DANG !!!!
Last edited by S-Prihadi; Apr 16, 2025 at 06:44 AM.
Reason: ADD INFO
TIA's become more common as we age, many go unnoticed the first couple times, Glad yours was so minor. Interesting that your springs were uneven in height just like mine were, they are now very close to each other, my right rear is still an 1/8" higher than the left, I now have been putting the heavier items om that side of the trunk, mostly to make me feel better! I'm sure they will even out eventually, it's so close now it's become hard to measure.I only have 500 miles since replacement, the real test will be my usual trip to AZ and back this summer, around 4200 miles round trip.
Last edited by pierrejoliat; Apr 16, 2025 at 12:18 PM.
TIA's become more common as we age, many go unnoticed the first couple times, Glad yours was so minor. Interesting that your springs were uneven in height just like mine were, they are now very close to each other, my right rear is still an 1/8" higher than the left, I now have been putting the heavier items om that side of the trunk, mostly to make me feel better! I'm sure they will even out eventually, it's so close now it's become hard to measure.I only have 500 miles since replacement, the real test will be my usual trip to AZ and back this summer, around 4200 miles round trip.
1/8" = 3.17mm
That is very minor.
I think with so many bushings and accuracy of the car body dimension yada yada, to be 100% the same ride height at say 0.2mm accuracy its tough
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I came across a local Indonesian shop on youtube who specialized in making MORE NEGATIVE CAMBER for his customers who are dumb-azz street user who thinks
-5* degree camber for the rear is pretty.
He hydraulic pressed the camber arm curve to make it bent more, in order to make it "shorter" by 2cm and the camber negative gain is almost -4 degree
The suspension engineers will cry seeing this practice. Not as bad as bagged cars, but it is 40% the idiocy of a full blown 100% idiocy of bagged cars.
Next level idiots, beyond 100%....twilight zone grade I guess
Mercindo is among a few of MB Indonesia authorized dealership.
I buy sometimes parts from them at their online store in Indonesia's equivalent of Amazon.
If I buy pleny of parts US$1K or more, I buy thru my Indie, give him some business and my Indie will buy it from another oldie big MB dealership.
I want to get Romess value on my car. That is the data I am missing. It will help to see this data before I troubleshoot further on improving my camber to middle spec.
My cheapo inclinometer can't do this kind of accuracy and I do not have Romess kind of custom adapter plate too
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However the WIS shows only a W204 when I choose W212 related Romess reading points.
My W212 does not have these two measurement dots, but has 2 lines which I think it is for measurement points.
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It is always the camber arm as the measuring point for front suspension type W212/W204.
The rear Romess value for W212 is at the drive shaft. 0.06* is basically like a zero degree. 6/100th of a degree...dang.
How the hell a tool of only 0.1* degree accuracy/resolution is to be used to read W212 value of 0.06* degree rear and 0.12* degree front ?
Front being 0.12* is still possible to use 0.1* as reference. But 0.06* , again only 0.1* value is possible to use as reference... so how does one read to a true 0.06* degree ?
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Above image from MB USA informational video by Snap ON. Old video but super good information.
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This one has 0.01* degree resolution on display, but I can't get its datasheet for its actual accuracy. Used on W212 as per its video.
However I wont trust this unit. Its sensor is at the unit body and not at the touch points ( 4 dots ).
Above is the only video I can find showing W212 as the subject car.
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Here is a GLE. But high degree at 9* ish. Automatic input wirelessly to Hunter aligment machine.
According to Hunter catalog, the Romess unit in use for below video is not approved for MB official dealership.
I been looking for this kind of information for Caster-Camber Correction Bolt Effect, but for W212 Macpherson Strut configuration for the 2 suspension arms.
Still can't find any..... like how below W221 has such info.
For me to map out equivalent table like above, it will take 8 times alignment minimum and so much work removing A+B+C+D peripherals, I would probably never will do it
unless I am given an alignment rack for 2 full days and 2 assistant...LOL.
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In Toyotal Land Cruiser 300 WIS, it also has such useful information.
1 click of adjustment equal to approx what Caster Camber value get effected.
I forgot to add. The 24th April data vs old spring data has full tank of fuel difference.
24th april 2025 reading is 100% full fuel less 4 liters ( 30km spent ) when measured.
Old springs was fuel down to no more than 10 liters.
So 24th april test is approx 40kg heavier at the rear based on 0.77 gasoline specific gravity.
I think my car tank is only 65 liters max.
If say my rear spring is 7kg per mm, (40/2 ) /7 , it is now lower by 2.85mm due to fuel weight alone or
it would be 129 to 130mm high both sides if based on same low fuel load when oldie spring measured.
130KM driven. HIghway and normal kinda bad road.
This new spring does feel more sporty aka stiff.
I have not taken high speed corner yet.
On bad roads it reminded me how when I first installed B6 Bilstein ( now is B6 ) for rear, its not as elegant and quiet on bad roads like Bilstein B4.
Maybe for fun and experiment sake, I will switch back to B4 after 500KM and 2nd wheel alignment after new rear springs.
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Need to add this info.
I think when one buy a new car, best to align the wheel at first 1,000KM or 1 month of use. For the reason the car suspension has settled down.
More so when they are adjustable for caster and camber, like some SUV MB front suspension arms can be adjusted.
I have tracked 3 Land Cruiser 300, where two I personally supervised the alignment, all of them are OUT OF SPEC.
One alignment was done at Toyota Astra Motor ( TAM ), and lazy techy, see the camber of LC300 #2 the AFTER. One being minus while the other ZERO.
Toe is too easy to not get right, but Camber and Caster need patience.
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For W212 typical suspension, at least we can adjust front and rear TOE, when suspension has settled.
Last edited by S-Prihadi; Apr 27, 2025 at 11:03 AM.
Reason: ADD INFO
I forgot to add. The 24th April data vs old spring data has full tank of fuel difference.
24th april 2025 reading is 100% full fuel less 4 liters ( 30km spent ) when measured.
Old springs was fuel down to no more than 10 liters.
So 24th april test is approx 40kg heavier at the rear based on 0.77 gasoline specific gravity.
I think my car tank is only 65 liters max.
If say my rear spring is 7kg per mm, (40/2 ) /7 , it is now lower by 2.85mm due to fuel weight alone or
it would be 129 to 130mm high both sides if based on same low fuel load when oldie spring measured.
Sounds right, onlty the V8's and flex-fuel cars got the bigger gas tanks I believe
130KM driven. HIghway and normal kinda bad road.
This new spring does feel more sporty aka stiff.
I have not taken high speed corner yet.
On bad roads it reminded me how when I first installed B6 Bilstein ( now is B6 ) for rear, its not as elegant and quiet on bad roads like Bilstein B4.
Maybe for fun and experiment sake, I will switch back to B4 after 500KM and 2nd wheel alignment after new rear springs.
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Need to add this info.
I think when one buy a new car, best to align the wheel at first 1,000KM or 1 month of use. For the reason the car suspension has settled down.
More so when they are adjustable for caster and camber, like some SUV MB front suspension arms can be adjusted.
I have tracked 3 Land Cruiser 300, where two I personally supervised the alignment, all of them are OUT OF SPEC.
One alignment was done at Toyota Astra Motor ( TAM ), and lazy techy, see the camber of LC300 #2 the AFTER. One being minus while the other ZERO.
Toe is too easy to not get right, but Camber and Caster need patience.
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For W212 typical suspension, at least we can adjust front and rear TOE, when suspension has settled.
Yes, I noticed the stiffer ride as well, at least compared to the old springs before I broke them on the highway
I'm doing the same thing by storing weight in the right rear trunk, mine is finally getting close, but I'm still measuring with fingers but it's less than an 1/8 "
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, nope it goes back to where it was.
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but it's less than an 1/8 "
