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in the EU wagons not SUV are popular. But keep in mind we are talking about A, B and C series wagons not E series wagons. Ditto for BMW and AUDI: 1,2 and 3 series and A1, A2 and A3. Both the 5 series BMW and the A6 wagons are far too expensive for 99% of the EU.
I have no idea how popular the MB E450 wagon is in Canada, but if MB sells 250 that would be a lot
Whether you agree or not, it is totally irrelevant: the number one seller for MB IS THE GLC, for AUDI the Q3 and for BMW the X3 each followed by the GLE, then the A5 and the X5.
The days of the estate wagon are long gone - you just do not realize it!
Instead of hyperbole and empty bravado, why don't we look at actual data?
The days of wagon are not long gone. They are still one of the most important segment in Europe.
The % of wagon sales in Europe in 2020
Volvo *60 88%
VW Passat 85%
Volvo *90 83%
Audi A4 80%
Audi A6 76%
Mercedes CLA 63%
Mercedes C-class 51%
BMW 3-series 51%
BMW 5-series 49%
Mercedes E-class 42%
Porsche Panamera 41%
This is why all the European brands still make wagons. This body style accounts for half (sometimes more like Volvo and Audi) of what they sell at home.
Also, the number one seller of Mercedes is A-class not GLC. The second best selling Mercedes is E-class. Mercedes sold 449k A-class and 332k E-class and 309k C-class. SUVs combined (GLA, GLB, GLC, GLE, GLS, G) totalled 887k. If you are counting body styles, then yes, SUV is the number 1 selling body style for Mercedes - 43% of global sales are SUVs. But A, E, and C-class are still the top selling models - except of course these sales are split into hatch, sedan, coupe, convertible, and wagons.
If you look at trends overtime, SUVs are replacing sedan and 2 door coupe sales for all the luxury brands. Wagon (and hatchback) sales have remain fairly static through the SUV onslaught of sedans. Wagon, which was never that popular outside Europe anyway has become a lot more important to these car companies now that sedan and 2 door coupes sales are in freefall in the US and most other markets.
2015 CLS 550 2015 ML 400 Previous 2020 GLB 250 2019 A 220 2005 ML 350 1989 300 E 2001 SL 500
Originally Posted by Hundens
I have asked this before, but I will ask it again. Does anyone have information as to how the All-Terrain is being received in the marketplace? Has the pseudo-SUV look had the desired consequences or is it being rejected by the traditionalists.
I can only share my own experience. We sold our only one after about a month on the lot.
We've got one more coming, it is a customer ordered car.
Looks like there are @ 150 in stock across the country with maybe another 150 in production or on the way.
I've had a couple of wagon owners take exception to the body cladding. It's not a car we got a lot of calls or traffic on. Wagons never are.
2019 E 450, 2016 E350 4matic (retired), 2018 Ford Edge Sport, 2008 Porsche Boxster
Originally Posted by bzcat
Instead of hyperbole and empty bravado, why don't we look at actual data?
The days of wagon are not long gone. They are still one of the most important segment in Europe.
The % of wagon sales in Europe in 2020
Volvo *60 88%
VW Passat 85%
Volvo *90 83%
Audi A4 80%
Audi A6 76%
Mercedes CLA 63%
Mercedes C-class 51%
BMW 3-series 51%
BMW 5-series 49%
Mercedes E-class 42%
Porsche Panamera 41%
This is why all the European brands still make wagons. This body style accounts for half (sometimes more like Volvo and Audi) of what they sell at home.
Also, the number one seller of Mercedes is A-class not GLC. The second best selling Mercedes is E-class. Mercedes sold 449k A-class and 332k E-class and 309k C-class. SUVs combined (GLA, GLB, GLC, GLE, GLS, G) totalled 887k. If you are counting body styles, then yes, SUV is the number 1 selling body style for Mercedes - 43% of global sales are SUVs. But A, E, and C-class are still the top selling models - except of course these sales are split into hatch, sedan, coupe, convertible, and wagons.
If you look at trends overtime, SUVs are replacing sedan and coupe sales for all the luxury brands. Wagon (and hatchback) sales have remain fairly static through the SUV onslaught of sedans. Coupe and sedan sales are the ones that are shrinking rapidly.
This is the funniest math I have ever seen:
Volvo 60 88% of sales
Volvo 90 83% of sales
So the sales of these two models represent 171% of Volvo sales. I guess all the other Volvo must, 71% must have been returned?
Audi A4 80% of sales
Audi A6 76% of sales
The sales of these two models represent 156% of Audi sales. Like Volvo, the remaining 56% must have been returns?
Mercedes CLA 63% of sales
Mercedes C Class 51%
Mercedes E Class 42%
The sales of three models represent 156% of Mercedes sales. So everything else, 56% must have been returned?
You wrote:
"Wagon (and hatchback) sales have remain fairly static through the SUV onslaught of sedans. Coupe and sedan sales are the ones that are shrinking rapidly."
I am pretty familiar with the MB, Audi and BMW lines. What hatchbacks are you referring to - off hand I cannot think of any hatchback from these three manufacturers presently being sold in the US.
As I posted wagons continue to be popular in EU - but these are the small wagon not the grand wagons like Audi A6 All Road or the Mercedes E450. BMW has not imported a 5 series wagon into the US for several years.
These "Grand wagons" are a premium to their Sedan and SUV counterparts. They just do not sell in the US and without some sort of reliable data, for starters number of cars sold should never exceed 100%, I doubt very much they are selling in the rest of the world.
So the sales of these two models represent 171% of Volvo sales. I guess all the other Volvo must, 71% must have been returned?
Audi A4 80% of sales
Audi A6 76% of sales
The sales of these two models represent 156% of Audi sales. Like Volvo, the remaining 56% must have been returns?
Mercedes CLA 63% of sales
Mercedes C Class 51%
Mercedes E Class 42%
The sales of three models represent 156% of Mercedes sales. So everything else, 56% must have been returned?
I get the sense that these stats represent sales within the model. So 42% of all E-Class models sold in the EU were the wagon body type. Having lived in Europe for a spell I can believe this, thought the #s feel a bit high. That A4 number feels particularly high @80%. But I am not surprised to see wagon sales that high in the EU. I mean, the first wagon I fell in love with was an RS6 at the Vienna auto show. That was the Audi show stopper car there. Here it would've been an R8 or a fully decked out Q7.
I can only share my own experience. We sold our only one after about a month on the lot.
We've got one more coming, it is a customer ordered car.
Looks like there are @ 150 in stock across the country with maybe another 150 in production or on the way.
I've had a couple of wagon owners take exception to the body cladding. It's not a car we got a lot of calls or traffic on. Wagons never are.
Is there any trick to searching MBUSA inventory for these on a national scale? I feel like I am having to just search by major city. Also, do you have any visibility into whether the 150 on the way will have multicontour seats? That option is holding off my order so I might go to inventory if I can find something suitable.
Honest? Oh man, one more nail in the all-terrain coffin. That'd almost be funny if it wasn't so sad.
Makes sense. The facia its mounted on is "plastic" and so the brush bars need to flex. The issue is that the brush bars are so fugly. Really the design work on the All-Terrain doesn't reflect well on MB. The cladding on the rear doors is less than skillful. As has been pointed out, the Wagon has had the highest demographics of any MB model in the US. MB likes the crowd it attracts. It looks nice in front of the country club. Ooo, Daddy Warbucks has a MB wagon. Personally I think customers who want a SUV, will in fact buy an SUV. The little ladies who want that "command view" like in a German staff car are not going to buy the All-Terrain because it now has plastic cladding. As was said MBUSA has shot itself in the foot. But I figure it will just help the values of 2019s like mine. And it means I have no urge to replace the 2019 and spend another fortune. The one I've got is loaded to the gills, and there is nothing for me to envy. Boy, am I happy.
2019 E 450, 2016 E350 4matic (retired), 2018 Ford Edge Sport, 2008 Porsche Boxster
Originally Posted by Hundens
Makes sense. The facia its mounted on is "plastic" and so the brush bars need to flex. The issue is that the brush bars are so fugly. Really the design work on the All-Terrain doesn't reflect well on MB. The cladding on the rear doors is less than skillful. As has been pointed out, the Wagon has had the highest demographics of any MB model in the US. MB likes the crowd it attracts. It looks nice in front of the country club. Ooo, Daddy Warbucks has a MB wagon. Personally I think customers who want a SUV, will in fact buy an SUV. The little ladies who want that "command view" like in a German staff car are not going to buy the All-Terrain because it now has plastic cladding. As was said MBUSA has shot itself in the foot. But I figure it will just help the values of 2019s like mine. And it means I have no urge to replace the 2019 and spend another fortune. The one I've got is loaded to the gills, and there is nothing for me to envy. Boy, am I happy.
Must be different here in the North East: Can't remember the last time I saw an E450 Wagon anywhere including yacht clubs and golf clubs or even out in the Hamptons. Every now and then you will see one on the dealer's lots for sale.
People around do not buy $80,000 station wagons. Period, end of story.
Continue to enjoy your 2019 and hopefully when it comes time to trade or sell, it will have held a high percentage of its value.
Must be different here in the North East: Can't remember the last time I saw an E450 Wagon anywhere including yacht clubs and golf clubs or even out in the Hamptons. Every now and then you will see one on the dealer's lots for sale.
People around do not buy $80,000 station wagons. Period, end of story.
Continue to enjoy your 2019 and hopefully when it comes time to trade or sell, it will have held a high percentage of its value.
Trust me, around here people buy 85K wagons on a regular basis. Yes, life on your part of Long Island may be different. Possibly when the economy improves people there will be able to afford MB wagons, but unit then the model still has the highest demographics of any MB car sold ion the USA,
I'm on my 2nd wagon and waiting for my third, even with the ugly cladding. The issue isn't how they look; to my eye they all look mediocre, just better than SUVs but nowhere near sedans and coupes. Nonetheless, they drive a heck of a lot better than SUVs, generally in line with their shared sedan chassis. This, and only this, is the reason to buy a wagon. Same space as an SUV and a hell of a lot better ride.
Frankly, wagons look a lot like hearses. And I still love mine!
2019 E 450, 2016 E350 4matic (retired), 2018 Ford Edge Sport, 2008 Porsche Boxster
Originally Posted by Hundens
Trust me, around here people buy 85K wagons on a regular basis. Yes, life on your part of Long Island may be different. Possibly when the economy improves people there will be able to afford MB wagons, but unit then the model still has the highest demographics of any MB car sold ion the USA,
The actual number is sales are so miniscule, the sample so small that your statement of “highest demographics “ is meaningless.
9 truck drivers are at a bar having drinks. Bill Gates walks in and goes to the bar and orders a drink. The average net worth of each is now north of $5 billion as you would point out ”highest demographics “
FYI where I live Ferrarias, Bentleys and Lamborghini are selling just fine. So are homes - but not the E450 estate wagon!
“
I’m very happy with my 2019. Wish I’d got the multi contour seats but the base seats are fine. It still amazes me how sport orientated the car feels driving it in sport plus mode. Maybe some of it is the wider wheelbase wheels, I guess that helps out in the corners. Feels like I’m driving a sports car. I dunno what I was thinking wanting the new Terrain model. I think I’d really would have regretted it had I given the dealer my diamond white wagon for the All Terrain.
Last edited by 2012 merc amg; Apr 5, 2021 at 11:26 PM.
Chiming in as a recent purchaser of the new all-terrain to give some objective data points from a buyer's POV.
I am a huge wagon fan. The new e450 sits next to my 2018 e400, which is spec'd on the opposite end of the wagon spectrum. Luxury trim, piedmont green/nut brown. Feels almost like a new vintage car. Feels like part of the lineage going back to the beautiful W123s.
For the past ~4 years, that e400 has been the car we use for everything 'not rough'. Meaning for ski trips, bike trips, drives where we'll be off the pavement, etc, we use a different car. That 'other car' has been some version of a diesel range rover sport for me, going back 3 cars.
This time around I wanted:
-Something less truck-y.
-Something more road-biased but that could still deal with fire-roads, the occasional unplowed mountain pass, etc.
-Something less likely to make my kids carsick on winding roads.
Considered everything out there, and in the end the all terrain did it all best. The a6 allroad is OK but the interior looks like someone watched too many bad sci-fi movies. All the weird faceted angles and chunky materials coming together....and it felt much more sluggish to me. Plus no third row (we use ours regularly - the kids love it).
Do I love the plastic? No. Is it part of the driving experience? No - except that when I'm on a narrow road with brush on both sides, it's nice to know the wheel arches aren't going to get chewed up. On the last rover I had, after 3 years of ownership the only parts of the car with any cosmetic damage were the arches. So I expect it will help with that. And on graphite with the night package, it's pretty subtle.
And to the point of, "people don't buy 80K wagons", that is a positive factor in my mind. I prefer more unusual/interesting cars. Most car aficionados love long-roofs. They make so much more sense than an SUV. Life's too short to eat vanilla ice cream all day.
Happy to answer questions about the wagon for anyone who's considering! Definitely no regrets, I love the car.
You and I are in very similar positions. I will be trading in the 2017 e400 for the e450 and the need for the update is very similar to yours. How'd you spec the new ride? Specifically, what wheels did you opt for and how's the ride quality/road noise? I've got 19" rims on my e400 with run flats. Road noise is ok, but I think the acoustic comfort package with 19" on the e450 and maybe swapping out the run flats would help.
Also, have you taken it on any fire roads yet? Any observations on its llight off-road performance?
2019 SL450, 2019 E450 Luxury Trim Wagon, 2024 BMW I7 xDrive60
Originally Posted by wien0305
Is there any trick to searching MBUSA inventory for these on a national scale? I feel like I am having to just search by major city. Also, do you have any visibility into whether the 150 on the way will have multicontour seats? That option is holding off my order so I might go to inventory if I can find something suitable.
No way, that I know of to search MBUSA for new cars nationwide.
You and I are in very similar positions. I will be trading in the 2017 e400 for the e450 and the need for the update is very similar to yours. How'd you spec the new ride? Specifically, what wheels did you opt for and how's the ride quality/road noise? I've got 19" rims on my e400 with run flats. Road noise is ok, but I think the acoustic comfort package with 19" on the e450 and maybe swapping out the run flats would help.
Also, have you taken it on any fire roads yet? Any observations on its llight off-road performance?
Cool. I did the night package with the 19's. It's on runflats which are stiffer for sure but I don't mind it. I drive the car in S/S+ 99% of the time, and generally prefer things on the stiffer vs squishier end. When November rolls around it'll be on Hakka's for the snow which soften everything up a LOT, for better or for worse.
So the sales of these two models represent 171% of Volvo sales. I guess all the other Volvo must, 71% must have been returned?
Audi A4 80% of sales
Audi A6 76% of sales
The sales of these two models represent 156% of Audi sales. Like Volvo, the remaining 56% must have been returns?
Mercedes CLA 63% of sales
Mercedes C Class 51%
Mercedes E Class 42%
The sales of three models represent 156% of Mercedes sales. So everything else, 56% must have been returned?
The post is pretty clear and simple. 80% of A4 sales are wagon and 42% of E-class sales in Europe are wagon. And so forth.
You wrote:
"Wagon (and hatchback) sales have remain fairly static through the SUV onslaught of sedans. Coupe and sedan sales are the ones that are shrinking rapidly."
I am pretty familiar with the MB, Audi and BMW lines. What hatchbacks are you referring to - off hand I cannot think of any hatchback from these three manufacturers presently being sold in the US.
I didn't say anything about the US market. The data was worldwide sale and A-class is Mercedes' best seller which is mostly hatchback.
And in fact, Audi and BMW both sell hatchbacks in the US. Until last year, Audi sold A3 hatchback in the US and still sells A5 and A7. BMW has the 4 series gran coupe.
As I posted wagons continue to be popular in EU - but these are the small wagon not the grand wagons like Audi A6 All Road or the Mercedes E450. BMW has not imported a 5 series wagon into the US for several years.
These "Grand wagons" are a premium to their Sedan and SUV counterparts. They just do not sell in the US and without some sort of reliable data, for starters number of cars sold should never exceed 100%, I doubt very much they are selling in the rest of the world.
No one is disputing the wagon is not a big seller in the US. Really not sure why you are so hostile when you don't even have the facts. I provided data showing how important wagon is to Mercedes because it accounts for a majority of its sales in Europe. If that fact hurts your ego then I don't really know what to say.
Wagon sales whether in Europe or in the US has been pretty much static. SUVs are replacing sedans. Wagon buyers are not really switching. That's fairly evident and I don't know why that you all hot and bothered.
I get the sense that these stats represent sales within the model. So 42% of all E-Class models sold in the EU were the wagon body type. Having lived in Europe for a spell I can believe this, thought the #s feel a bit high. That A4 number feels particularly high @80%. But I am not surprised to see wagon sales that high in the EU. I mean, the first wagon I fell in love with was an RS6 at the Vienna auto show. That was the Audi show stopper car there. Here it would've been an R8 or a fully decked out Q7.
A4 Avant and sedan used to be more like 50:50 in Europe but sales of all sedans are falling rapidly in Europe in favor of SUVs so the % of wagon sold relative to sedan is now 80%
Also A4 sedan got competition in-house from A5 Sportback. Europeans love hatchbacks so given the choice, very few are willing to trade the utility of wagon or hatchback for sedans.
2019 E 450, 2016 E350 4matic (retired), 2018 Ford Edge Sport, 2008 Porsche Boxster
Originally Posted by bzcat
The post is pretty clear and simple. 80% of A4 sales are wagon and 42% of E-class sales in Europe are wagon. And so forth.
I didn't say anything about the US market. The data was worldwide sale and A-class is Mercedes' best seller which is mostly hatchback.
And in fact, Audi and BMW both sell hatchbacks in the US. Until last year, Audi sold A3 hatchback in the US and still sells A5 and A7. BMW has the 4 series gran coupe.
No one is disputing the wagon is not a big seller in the US. Really not sure why you are so hostile when you don't even have the facts. I provided data showing how important wagon is to Mercedes because it accounts for a majority of its sales in Europe. If that fact hurts your ego then I don't really know what to say.
Wagon sales whether in Europe or in the US has been pretty much static. SUVs are replacing sedans. Wagon buyers are not really switching. That's fairly evident and I don't know why that you all hot and bothered.
This would be a moot point, except without knowing your source, we have no way to check.
You stated:
"A-class is Mercedes' best seller which is mostly hatchback."
From the sources I have seen, the following in order are the best sellers for MB:
GLC: 52,626
GLE: 48,154
E Class: 27,102
C Class: 26,294
GLA: 25,348
GLS: 22,172
A Class: 15,332
Clearly the A class is not as you stated the best seller for MB.
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