applecarplay

Thinking about to buy a comfortable, quiet, safe, and reliable sedan. Which option is good? I have a W166, which is quite reliable, but I'm not sure about the W213. Any advice would be greatly appreciated.

ua549

The vehicle condition such as mileage, service record, accident history, etc. is what matters the most. Each car has both good and bad points. You didn't mention the engine. That is critical.

chassis

Avoid the E300 because it has the unreliable M274 2.0 liter 4-banger known for breaking pistons. Go with a V6 E350, E400, E450 or E43. The V6 in this car in the years you are considering is arguably the most reliable engine MB has ever built.

beechcamp

I was in a friend's A6 recently. While it was a nice enough car, I kept thinking how, at least for me, I was happy I chose a W213 instead of an A6.

ram0201

A6 slightly cheaper and more reliable. E300 only looks better, feels and drives good - however, a big question on reliability.

applecarplay

Thank you chassis, your input is always revealing . May I ask for V6 engine, are you referring to the natural aspiration engine used in W212, or the V6 engine used in W213?

chassis

The M276 in either 3.5L naturally aspirated or 3.0L twin turbo forms. I think this was used in late W212 and into W213.

dzmitry

Wow I'm glad I joined w213 discussion, so much room for discussion :-D

On topic: I about a month ago was comparing 2023 a6 allroad to 2023 e450 AT, from this experience I'd say that w213 is better it terms of interior quality and design, I was amazed how bad are stock a6 seats.
In terms of drivetrain... I wouldn't go with 2.0 in either of those cars (they are too heavy), comparing audi v6t + DTC vs Mercedes i6t + conventional automatic - definitely Mercedes, but unfortunately can't compare to v6 e400/450, BTW i think e350 in w213 was 2.0 as well.
I don't believe that Audi has any advantages over Mercedes in terms of reliability, on contrary Audi engines usually a less reliable then Mercedes, and DTC ...
BTW highly recommend not to go with first one/two model years on a new car/model

A bit off topic:
1. There is nothing wrong with m274 after 2017 MY as an engine in general.
2. You can't call m276 "the most reliable engine MB has ever built" :-D It can't even get close to even m112/m113

BTW didn't mean to be disrespectful, just enjoy engine discussions

chassis

Not true. Broken pistons have been reported on this site until the end of M274 installation, in 2018 MY in the North American market.

M113 would the contender to the M276, I agree they are potentially in the same league. A bit irrelevant when it comes to looking to buy a daily driver as the newest M113 is 13 years old and a gas guzzler by today's standards.

Disagree on the M112, it is a 90 degree V6. There are no 90 degree V6s that have proven themselves as reliable as inline-6s or 60-degree V6s. They are inherently unbalanced and required a balance shaft to partially mitigate the vibration. This leads to a slippery slope of engineering band aids which results in long term reliability problems. I have a 90-degree EA839 2.9TTV6 Porsche aka "Audi" engine and love it, but we will see how it handles life beyond 100k miles.

applecarplay

Ack. However, my budget does not permit me to get the 3.0L twin turbo from W213 (despite the fact that I adore it). If I chose a 2.0L in 2017, how much concerns should I have on the broken piston issue? Is there a figure for the piston's defect rate?

chassis

No statistics on the piston cracking. Reports have been made on this site of cracked pistons for model year 2018. There is no safe time or build period for M274. They are all suspect. Stay away.

dzmitry

I've been reading a lot about m274.... I take my words back, and agree with chassis, stay away from it.
One thing I still don't understand whether it's a problem with "Nissan"-build engines or m274 in general.

BTW there was no problems with balance shaft on m112... like ever, it's not m272
I owned both m112 and m113 (in the same car :-D )

The G Man

I had a A6 3.0T a few years ago, at that time, the 3.0 supercharged engine was best in class compare to Mercedes and BMW. The 4 cylinder turbo engine in the W213 actually won the Ward’s best engine award, both of the 4 cylinder and the straight 6 Mercedes engines are extremely fuel efficient. I agree with an early comment that Audi’s seats are not as comfortable as Mercedes and the touchscreen on the A6 is horrible. The early M274 engine in the C class had the most piston cracking issue, there are isolated reports of the cracking issues in the 2017 and 2018 E300. I would go with a 2019 if possible. I have a 2019 E300 and it has plenty of passing power and comfort. I never thought I would own a 4 cylinder car but the E300 does not sound and feel like a 4 cylinder, In my opinion, Mercedes really did a great job designing this engine into such a big car.

teksurv

60 mph plus and the I4 is out of breath, I drove several. E400/450 is the way to go.

The G Man

E300 out of breath at 60 mph as in diminishing acceleration? I must disagree, there is plenty of passing power after 60mph. it is still well within the power band. I would guess estimate the power band starts to get out of breath at about 100 mph, most people who buy the E400 stay well below its full power output anyways. Unless you have a AMG, the suspension on the E Class is too soft, not great for high power engines. The E Class is a somewhat well built and comfortable taxi, that is about it, I do not have any illusions of making it into a hot rod.

ua549

The E300 lacks 60 mph to 80 mph passing power on 2 lane roads. The engine has some notable flat spots in city driving as well. Try accelerating from 35 mph when the car is in 6th gear. There will be a long pause while the transmission decides what to do. Most of the time it won't downshift unless the pedal is fully depressed.

teksurv

My comment reflects my thoughts on driving E300 loaner vehicles on often congested Southern California roads/freeways. For example, on the freeway following a car, often a distracted driver these days, I'll want to move a lane to the left to pass said vehicle. I have found more than once that the acceleration ability was lacking to quickly reach the speeds of cars in that lane in order to overtake. It's not that the E300 can't speed up, it's that when a quick 20mph acceleration is needed (65-85), the weight of the car combined with the power band of the M274 is lacking. This is of course just my opinion.

The G Man

If you guys are talking about the engine bogging down when the tranny is in too high of a gear, the same problem exist in the 6 cylinder and the 8 cylinder Mercedes engines, just to a lesser extend. The sport mode keeps the engine in lower gear and ready for quick acceleration, you guys could also down shift on the shift paddles if you so inclined. If you cannot pass other cars doing 60 mph on a E300, you just do not know how to drive the car well enough.
I had many high power cars, in the e Class, the 6 cylinder or 8 cylinder would have been nice but totally unnecessary as the car is too softly sprung. If money is no object, then the 6 or 8 cylinders are the way to go. I believe the OP is on a budget, just like I was. The extra cost for the 6 cylinder could buy much more useful options in a E300 such as AWD, 360 camera or dual flat screen instrument gauge. If I spend $80,000+ on a car, it would not be an E450.
I guess I became a believer in the 4 cylinder too late as my next car will probably be electric. I am amazed how far 4 cylinder engines have advance, the power, the torque and the fuel efficiency is amazing in the E300 considering the size of the engine and in such a heavy car. Engine noise of the 4 cylinder engines have kept me away form 4 cylinder cars in the pass, this I4 engine almost sounds good, not too loud unless you put it in sport mode but even in sport mode, the engine noise sounds are very good.

ua549

The transmission should downshift on its own under partial throttle. It doesn't. The car automatically reverts to comfort mode every time it is started. For me that's many, many times a day - about every 3 miles or so. It would be a different experience if it remembered the last setting. The one could leave the car with performance set.

Due to this lack of performance, my E300 is relegated to city driving only. As previously posted the power from 65 to 85 is critical. On a two lane road especially on a two lane road where passing distances are very short 50 mph to 80 mph is more the norm. The E300 simply doesn't have the power enen at the 50-80 speed range. According to published performance data the E300 takes about 3.9 seconds to reach 50 mph and an additional 5 seconds to reach 80 mph. A 60% speed increase takes about 128% longer. That is more than twice as long! Five seconds in the opposing traffic's lane to pass a slow mover is risky. At a closing speed of 140 mph (oncoming @ 60 mph + own speed @ 80 mph) one needs a thousand feet to pass. That's 5 seconds.

JTK44

FYI:


40 mph - 80 mph

• 17 Mercedes-Benz E300 - 7.8 seconds
• 21 Mercedes-Benz E450 4Matic - 5.5 seconds

see: https://www.reddit.com/r/cars/commen...eration_times/

The G Man

All the stats are all very informative, but we already know the 6 cylinder is faster than 4 and the 8 is faster than the 6. I recommend the E300 to the OP because he said he was on a budget. If it comes down to a no option E400 vs a well equipped E300, I would recommend the E300 7 days of the week. If the OP likes to drive aggressively, not sure why anyone would want to in a car like this, or if the OP track his car, then the 6 cylinder is a must. By the way, I have pass many car on two lane roads with no problem, you just need a bit more space.

ssquared30

why would you recommend one of Mercedes least reliable modern engines in the e300 over the e400 which is much less problematic and gets very similar if not better real world fuel economy with much better performance?

I’ve got a 2022 e450 and even that feels slow from 60-80. My other daily is an e39 M5 and it’s got a lot more punch in that range.

The G Man

i am afraid you simple don’t know the stats of the piston failure issue in the E300, it is very isolated, maybe 2 or 3 cases on this E forum. There is a lot more piston failures in the C forum but my guess is that a lot of those cars have been chipped or tuned.
why would I recommend a E300 you ask. Its the cost, not every one could afford a $100,000 M5 like you sad to said. The OP’s budget is a 2017 E300, which is below $30k, please let me know if you know of a well equipped 2017 E400 for under $30k, please share it with us.

ssquared30

I’m sure some are chipped, but I know a few Mercedes mechanics who have seen many failures on those engines with no mods. Maybe the reason there aren’t as many posts on the e class forums is that it’s just less active. Most people who drive the e class in the US are professionals who just want a nice car and aren’t enthusiastic enough to hang out on forums. The amount of activity I see around here is way lower than the BMW forums

On your other comment about my M5, I wasn’t suggesting the op buy one…I was using it as a point of reference to show that someone’s view on how fast is fast enough is dependent on their point of reference. I also didn’t pay anywhere near $100k for it. It’s a 2002 and I bought it 4 years ago for $18k. I’ve put about $12k into repairs early on in my ownership and it’s been flawless since. My mechanic offered to buy it for $25k but I’d probably miss it too much. If I did sell, it would mean it cost me $5k to drive the car for 4 years. That’s a pretty damn good cost of ownership compared to spending 25-30k on an e300 that will be worth half that in 4 more years

The G Man

I had 2 BMW 5 series in the pass so I know the BMW forum is a bit more active. Never the less, this E forum is an indication of the overall number of piston failures in the E which is very few and far in between. There are no piston failures in the 2019 E300 that I read of, I believed there was a new piston design for 2019.
There are actually a lot of professionals on this forum but mostly retirees, there is a thread in here asking owners of their professions and there are a lot of doctors, lawyers and engineers in here. In my opinion, the knowledge and information in this forum is better than the trash talking in the BMW forums.
If I buy a 2002 car, I would need a another daily driver, the cost would be prohibitive. On a side note, I would never own a German car out of warranty, nevermine one as old as a 2002.