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started following an explosion of what appeared to be a Mercedes-Benz EQE model inside an underground parking lot of an apartment complex in the city's Cheongna International City. As a result, 140 vehicles were destroyed or blackened and at least 23 people received hospital treatment for smoke inhalation.
2023 EQE 500 SUV electric and 2024 Jaguar F-PACE SVR 5.0L
Yeah, EV battery fires are bad. But the fact that there's been only one recently and it's on the other side of the planet tells you how rare of an occurrence this is. A quick Google search shows dozens of gas cars catching fire recently and they're all on this side of the planet: https://www.google.com/search?q=car+fire+parking+garage
Am I panicking? No.
But nothing to worry about? I would disagree. I think they need to get to the bottom of this - find out why and how it can be prevented.
This is NOT supposed to happen, no matter how infrequent that it has been.
It took 177 emergency responders, 80 pieces of equipment and 8 hours to extinguish the fire.
Yeah, EV battery fires are bad. But the fact that there's been only one recently and it's on the other side of the planet tells you how rare of an occurrence this is. A quick Google search shows dozens of gas cars catching fire recently and they're all on this side of the planet: https://www.google.com/search?q=car+fire+parking+garage
The car in question in South Korea had Chinese battery cells. Nothing against them, BTW, but I have no idea how QA works at their plants. The one in Florida was likely damaged. Car fires in garages suck no matter what kind, honestly. Agree it should never happen, and I do have a heat alarm in the garage, but I haven't lost any sleep over it. Far more gas cars spontaneously catching fire it seems, and they shouldn't either.
"In order to localize important suppliers, Mercedes-Benz is partnering with Envision AESC, which will supply the Bibb County facility with high-performance battery modules from a new plant within the US. However, supplies won't start shipping before mid-decade. "The new facility in Alabama adds to Mercedes-Benz's global battery production network which includes factories on three continents including in Kamenz (Germany), Beijing (China), Bangkok (Thailand), Jawor (Poland), and Stuttgart (Germany). "
Update: wiki says AESC was originally a Japanese company started by Nissan in 2007. Since then they have partnered with Envision, a Chinese company that also works with Renault, Nissan, and Honda.
I believe all Mercedes are using Chinese battery cells - either CATL or Faraisa.
The one is question is using Faraisa cells.
All the EQE/EQS cars built in Bremen and Sindelfingen have German-sourced batteries. Not sure on raw materials, but the cells are assembled there. The ones built in Alabama are US assembled, though it's quite possible that some of the raw materials came from China. But the batteries in our cars are not from CATL. The Asian market EQs do have CATL batteries, and MB is planning on sourcing more CATL batteries for upcoming models. But I don't think our cars have them.
From the Web:
Mercedes-Benz has multiple battery suppliers for its electric vehicles (EVs), including Chinese companies, Korean companies, and other manufacturers:
LG Energy Solution and Deutsche Accumotive: Supply battery cells for the Mercedes EQB and EQA
Farasis Energy: Supplies batteries for the Mercedes-Benz EQE
SK On: Reportedly makes the EV6
CATL: A Chinese company that Mercedes-Benz expanded its partnership with in 2020. CATL has production bases in China and subsidiaries in Germany, France, Japan, and the United States. In 2022, Mercedes-Benz announced a new plant in Debrecen, Hungary with CATL to supply battery cells for future models
Envision AESC: A leading battery technology company that will supply high-performance battery modules to Mercedes-Benz's Bibb County factory starting in the mid-2020s
Thanks Ron! Here's what MB wrote back in 2021. Not sure if the batteries on early units came from Hedelfingen or not, but here's their material:
I saw an early video showing assembly of the GLE mild hybrid batteries in Germany. It might be that the battery cells are supplied by others and still assembled in Germany. Cheap labor costs might have driven more of the process to the cell manufacturer since shipping costs might be about the same and double handling of components eliminated, along with lower labor cost. Some assembly is automated?
From memory there are three major components: The individual cells; The cage that ties the cells together, inline; and the computer like Battery Controller. The Controller is designed to eliminate under/over charging along with a lot of other complicated things. IMO, BEV fires probably come from some type of Controller failure or an internal short. Maybe even a leaking cell!
There doesn't seem to be much info about causes of fires or the percentage, now or projected, as systems age. In most cases the cause of the fire is incinerated along with much of the vehicle. It's not in the best interest of the EV mandates or EV sales to give much daylight to issues, IMO.
Is parking a BEV in your garage safe? I added 3 more smoke detectors in my garages after my GLE 53 failed and was drug from my garage. No BEV for me until Solid States are available and proven safe. There's just too much severe combustion material in current Lithium batteries. Even the 1kw in the mild hybrid can toast the vehicle and closer objects...
Is parking a BEV in your garage safe? I added 3 more smoke detectors in my garages after my GLE 53 failed and was drug from my garage. No BEV for me until Solid States are available and proven safe. There's just too much severe combustion material in current Lithium batteries. Even the 1kw in the mild hybrid can toast the vehicle and closer objects...
Did you get a lot of false alarms with those detectors?
Did you get a lot of false alarms with those detectors?
Never one yet after 2+ years. Rather than crawl the artic to put them inline with the existing...I bought the combo 10 year smoke/C.Monoxide at Costco. One in each separate garage and another in the shop area. There are other combustibles like paint and lawn mower gas so it was long overdue anyway.
I added 3 more smoke detectors in my garages after my GLE 53 failed and was drug from my garage. No BEV for me until Solid States are available and proven safe. There's just too much severe combustion material in current Lithium batteries.
Sorry to hear about your GLE. However, I still think Li-Ion batteries are far safer than combustion engines as a whole. So many fluids to light on fire, so many friction points, not to mention all the electricals associated with this. A flurry of stats seems to indicate that a combustion-engine car is 100 times more likely to catch fire than a BEV. Most people also forget that they have Li-Ion batteries all over their house and pay no mind. How many mobile devices, tablets, small toys, even disposable or few-use items now have lithium ion or polymer batteries? They're absolutely everywhere now, and rarely do they catch fire. They still of course do. But so do gas stoves, myriads of corded electrical appliances, and candles. Not discounting your experience, but I'd also argue that it's atypical. I installed a Frient heat alarm in the garage, but I'm not losing any sleep about the batteries in our EQEs, and have only continued to feel safe about them since we've owned them.
It's rare if ever for an ICE to self combust and there's a big difference in the intensity of an ICE fire vs Liquid Lithium. Some small batteries in your house are solid state (ala cell phones, flashlight, tools, etc.) and if not there's only a small amount of lithium compared to a BEV. If you happen to be one of those rare cases that has a BEV fire in your garage, let's hope it's during the day or that your bedroom is ground floor away from the garage. The +/- risk over time is unknown so things might get worse.
The huge depreciation of BEV's are a subject for another discussion. Unfortunately you can't mandate demand, consumer acceptance or affordability.
There are no statistics to support "100 times more likely to catch fire". There are way more than a 100 tines more ICE vehicles and many of them are much older than the average BEV.
Some small batteries in your house are solid state (ala cell phones, flashlight, tools, etc.) and if not there's only a small amount of lithium compared to a BEV.
Every phone major phone manufacturer that I'm aware of (e.g., Samsung, Apple, and all the Chinese brands) uses lithium-ion-polymer, which is still liquid electrolyte. If you know of any solid-state batteries, would love to know about them. The size of the potential runaway is an issue, but it only takes a phone combusting near a flammable surface and you still have a potential house fire. All I'm saying is, the potential for EV fires is overblown compared to the average risk.
As for the overall risk, yes, EVs are 61 times less likely to catch fire per NTSB:
So again, sympathetic to your situation (not entirely sure what it was?) but the risks are very low. If you're willing to carry a lithium-ion-polymer battery in your pocket, I think it's safe to drive a car based on one. They're highly instrumented, well-calibrated, and well protected in general.
Last edited by bytemaster0; 08-12-2024 at 06:36 PM.
Every phone major phone manufacturer that I'm aware of (e.g., Samsung, Apple, and all the Chinese brands) uses lithium-ion-polymer, which is still liquid electrolyte. If you know of any solid-state batteries, would love to know about them. The size of the potential runaway is an issue, but it only takes a phone combusting near a flammable surface and you still have a potential house fire. All I'm saying is, the potential for EV fires is overblown compared to the average risk.
As for the overall risk, yes, EVs are 61 times less likely to catch fire per NTSB:
So again, sympathetic to your situation (not entirely sure what it was?) but the risks are very low. If you're willing to carry a lithium-ion-polymer battery in your pocket, I think it's safe to drive a car based on one. They're highly instrumented, well-calibrated, and well protected in general.
I made an error quoting a recent news feed that was probably exagerated clickbait. I should have done my homework before posting.
As for the NTSB information it's probably misleading. There has been no statistical study (that I can find) that compares like samples of new ICE/BEV cars much less the cause of fires. A 20-50 year old poorly maintained vehicle will skew any results. A properly done statisical analysis would compare a similar sample of an adequate size. Insurance Companies might soon be a better source if any choose to provide their actual experience and/or actuarial tables. Vehicle and incidental property damage from a BEV fire vs ICE?
Agreed, better studies are needed. There was a study I read a while back that had similar numbers to the NTSB numbers, if not better. All I can say is, yeah, Li-ion battery fires really suck, but after having used them hard-core (and shorted plenty of them), I do see them as very safe. As an example, I switched to Li-Ion cells on my research drones in the late 2000s, and had a few mishaps with terminals on unprotected cells touching (and promptly vaporizing the terminals). I have 15-year-old or older cells sitting around as well, and they were poorly maintained - before good information came out about proper Li-Ion storage SoCs, etc., and while some of them puffed up, I never had a fire or explosion. I'm guessing in my household alone, there are probably hundreds upon hundreds of Li-Ion cells in various shapes, sizes, capacities, and states of degradation. I've seen them puffed up enough to push the back off a mobile phone before, but never, not once a fire (fingers crossed!) I take very good care of batteries that I use daily, but heck, even my kids' toys all have Li-Ion batteries in them in some capacity or other. Gotta say, they've been darn reliable and safe. Heck, I even powered up my first cell phone from 22 years ago, and despite not having been charged in 2 decades, it powered on, holy cow! I do admit that after having seen two EQEs go up in smoke, it hasn't been a non-zero concern. But I do legitimately think there were other issues at play. There are so many EQS, EQB, EQA, and others out there, and I haven't seen a single report of fires in those (unless I missed an article), and there have been tens of thousands of those cars sold. So, 2 out of those is a pretty rare number indeed. Tesla had a rash of fires in the early 2010s, all of which seemed to be related to objects striking and penetrating an unprotected part of the battery compartment, which was later revised and the fires basically went to near-zero for non-accident-involved cars.
Here are a few other figures, and while I don't have the test methodologies, and the usual issues still exist, it's more data that points to the safety aspects:
Anyway, good discussion!
Anyone remember the Pinto? I seem to remember, SNL Saturday Night Live did a skit on them. They acted out the equivalent of a feather touching the rear bumper of the Pinto, and the Pinto was incinerated in a conflagration.
Needless to say, the Pinto developed a reputation they couldn’t come back from.
Anyone remember the Corvair?
Ralph Nader wrote a book titled “Unsafe at any speed”. The Corvair never recovered, and decades later the Corvair was recognized as being a very well engineered car, and didn’t deserve the reputation Nader had questionably given it. Far too late to save it, though.
It wouldn’t take much more bad press about Li ion battery powered cars to ruin any reputation they have right now, deserved or undeserved.
08-06-2024, 01:46 AM
