Consumer Reports
Consumer Reports
03-03-2006, 10:04 AM
#2
Mercedes seem less reliable. But how large is the difference in real terms?
I've started conducting my own reliability research to find out. I'll be reporting absolute numbers of times and days in the shop (for other than maintenance). This will make it much more possible to trade off reliability vs. other factors. With CR type ratings, people must either over-emphasize reliability (many Lexus owners) or disregard it altogether (many Mercedes, BMW, and Audi owners).
I start a model / model year when I have 25 in the panel (with eventual minimum of 50 per powertrain, 200 per model). No Mercedes yet, but getting there.
My critiques of CR's approach can be found in two articles:
www.truedelta.com/pieces/shortcomings.php
www.truedelta.com/pieces/anomalies.php
They are the best we have right now. But much more useful research is possible.
I've started conducting my own reliability research to find out. I'll be reporting absolute numbers of times and days in the shop (for other than maintenance). This will make it much more possible to trade off reliability vs. other factors. With CR type ratings, people must either over-emphasize reliability (many Lexus owners) or disregard it altogether (many Mercedes, BMW, and Audi owners).
I start a model / model year when I have 25 in the panel (with eventual minimum of 50 per powertrain, 200 per model). No Mercedes yet, but getting there.
My critiques of CR's approach can be found in two articles:
www.truedelta.com/pieces/shortcomings.php
www.truedelta.com/pieces/anomalies.php
They are the best we have right now. But much more useful research is possible.
03-20-2006, 11:24 PM
#3
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'03 C32
Congrats on creating a new research shop. It does seem like CR and JD Powers could use some competition. I have to admit, though, that I have long respected CR's research; their sample sizes are huge.
Having said that, the fact that the "less reliable" makes (such as Mercedes!) still have significant sales illustrates that people are interested in more than just reliability.
Having said that, the fact that the "less reliable" makes (such as Mercedes!) still have significant sales illustrates that people are interested in more than just reliability.
03-21-2006, 12:29 AM
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'03 C32
Agreed, but is it the enthusiast demographic (which CR clearly doesn't attract) or the possibility that those interested in MB already know about the reliability rap & don't need CR ?!
The good news as far as I'm concerned is as mkaresh seems to be suggesting with his new research approach -- even large sample sizes can't fully predict the future and my MB has been perfectly reliable. So, enjoy your Accords and Camrys CR fans; I'm loving my AMG!
The good news as far as I'm concerned is as mkaresh seems to be suggesting with his new research approach -- even large sample sizes can't fully predict the future and my MB has been perfectly reliable. So, enjoy your Accords and Camrys CR fans; I'm loving my AMG!
03-21-2006, 01:53 AM
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2005 C230K Sport Sedan, 6 speed manual
Mercedes (and most other European brands) attracts a different customer than Toyota.
The Camry is a transportation appliance. It is really good and reliable, but has all the excitement of a washing machine.
Most of your German car buyers are car enthusiasts. They are people willing to pay extra money for a quality driving experience. Car entusiasts, unfortunately, are more picky than customers who drive a transportation appliance.
Yes, the Japanese cars probably have fewer problems, but the difference in drivers probably skews the results much further.
The Camry is a transportation appliance. It is really good and reliable, but has all the excitement of a washing machine.
Most of your German car buyers are car enthusiasts. They are people willing to pay extra money for a quality driving experience. Car entusiasts, unfortunately, are more picky than customers who drive a transportation appliance.
Yes, the Japanese cars probably have fewer problems, but the difference in drivers probably skews the results much further.
03-24-2006, 03:13 PM
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2001 E320 RWD - Brilliant Silver/Ash: 100,000+
I don't remember the reviews in great detail, but it seemd like they recommended every Lexus they looked at and none of the Mercedes. Although I agree that C-R is a reputable and seemingly unbiased publication, I will never buy an expensive automobile simply because they like it. "Reliability" or the way they define it, is certainly not everything.
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04-09-2006, 02:15 PM
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2001 E320 RWD - Brilliant Silver/Ash: 100,000+
Camry vs. Mercedes
Originally Posted by alpinweiss
Mercedes (and most other European brands) attracts a different customer than Toyota.
The Camry is a transportation appliance. It is really good and reliable, but has all the excitement of a washing machine.
Most of your German car buyers are car enthusiasts. They are people willing to pay extra money for a quality driving experience. Car entusiasts, unfortunately, are more picky than customers who drive a transportation appliance.
Yes, the Japanese cars probably have fewer problems, but the difference in drivers probably skews the results much further.
The Camry is a transportation appliance. It is really good and reliable, but has all the excitement of a washing machine.
Most of your German car buyers are car enthusiasts. They are people willing to pay extra money for a quality driving experience. Car entusiasts, unfortunately, are more picky than customers who drive a transportation appliance.
Yes, the Japanese cars probably have fewer problems, but the difference in drivers probably skews the results much further.
I just happen to have a 91 Camry LE, V-6, 90k. I love the car primarily because it was my deceased father's last vehicle, and it was assembled in Japan. The salesperson told my father that it was the functional equivalent of a Lexus when he bought it (dunno chassis, engine, or what he was talking about).
With that said, I have spent more money maintaining the Toyota in the last 3 months than my 98 E430 (123k)and 94 Plymouth Acclaim (139k) combined. Most recently it needed a power steering pump, water pump, and a timing belt.
Musikmann
04-24-2006, 03:32 PM
#9
Since I last visited this thread I've written another critique of CR, this time focusing on a recent change in how their dots are derived:
http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/newdots.php
One problem with CR's ratings is they don't enable you to trade reliability off against other factors. So you either buy whatever they say to buy, or ignore them. With my approach it'll be possible to say, "Okay, the Mercedes is likely to be in the shop two more times in the first five years, but its advantages in other areas are worth it to me."
MB buyers essentially make this decision already, but without decent reliability information.
http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/newdots.php
One problem with CR's ratings is they don't enable you to trade reliability off against other factors. So you either buy whatever they say to buy, or ignore them. With my approach it'll be possible to say, "Okay, the Mercedes is likely to be in the shop two more times in the first five years, but its advantages in other areas are worth it to me."
MB buyers essentially make this decision already, but without decent reliability information.
06-27-2006, 01:26 PM
#11
I took CR's survey for the first time this month. Before doing so, I'd assumed that the data behind the dots was fairly solid. Not any more.
My full take:
http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/cr_survey.php
They've been conducting these surveys pretty much forever, they ought to be much better at it.
My full take:
http://www.truedelta.com/pieces/cr_survey.php
They've been conducting these surveys pretty much forever, they ought to be much better at it.
07-09-2006, 06:01 PM
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2012 E350 4Matic
I am very interested in this thread. I own a 2001 E 320 4Matic. The car failed to start in under a year and had to be towed in for a replacement part (I forget which) one. I also had the ABS light come on, had a new instrument cluster installed and had the A/C worked on twice, all in addition to routine maintenance.
I've been reading CR for years ranking MB so low for reliability makes me really hesitant to buy another.
I've been reading CR for years ranking MB so low for reliability makes me really hesitant to buy another.
