moxieman2

Yes, as Mercedes-Benz owners abd enthusiasts, I think that we should address this issue. It has become apparent to me that that Toyota, or "Lexus" same thing, has actually become some form of comptetion for our Mercedes. Now, I cannot understand how in hell someone could be stupid enough to choose a Toyota with pleather and PLASTIC wood trim over a REAL car. Let me tell you what Toyota (Lexus) does, they go out and look at all of the current Mercedes, BMW, and other types of luxury cars that they can savagely steal designs from, and they make it on the same assembly line that a "Echo" is made on. Then, they put that cute little "L" on the hood, throw an MSRP on it, as if it is some sort of "rival" of a real luxury car company. Now who ever would buy this Echo w/ leather piece of garbage is the absolute most stupid and low class person on the face of this earth. Why buy and imitation when you can have the REAL thing a Mercedes-Benz.

How does everyone else feel?

E 4.3

Whoa... I value your opinion, but... well, um, I have to respectfully disagree.

You all should be proud of me for not fueling this!

Vic55

Lexus makes quality products and so does Toyota. You put oil and gas in a Toyota and runs forever. I can see where you are coming from in regards to the Lexus line copying the Benzes. Isnt that what everyone does in all types of industries? If it makes money and there is a demand why not produce it. I am not offended if someone has a Lexus and pulls up next to my Benz. I just know that I like my car more.

I have owned three Lexus autos and while they don't compare to my current car (E55) they still were of the highest quality in regards to fit-and-finish, reliability, and comfort. I don't think I will be a Lexus buyer anytime soon until they put up a car that can compete with the AMG's but I have zero regrets with my previous autos.

CLK 320

It is interesting to note that both Mercedes and BMW were quite sure that it would take a considerable period of time for the American market to accept Acura, Lexus or Infiniti. In their view, you don't simply appear one day and start selling high end cars. (Particularly given that your reputation, while good, is on the low end of the market.) They were quite certain that it would take many years before their market share would really start impacting existing european marques. Unfortunately the new competition was accepted almost overnight. It really caught them off guard. I believe it has also changed the length of model life cycles. Take the CLK for example, the U.S. first got the model in 1998. MY 2003 is totally redesigned. In the past, Mercedes and BMW used to have a life cycle closer to ten years, not five.

Vic55

In fact, Lexus finished #1 in new car sales for 2001 under luxury nameplates besting #2 BMW and #3 MBZ. I still think that MBZ has the best looking line-up out there right now.

moxieman2

Well the fact that us American consumers of high-end automobiles are willing to accept overnight a new line of Toyotas that have copied our beloved Benzes is quite an absurdity. Also, when saying that they have been accepted, speak for yourselves. As far as build quality goes, I had an 86 300E Mercedes with 383,000mi., and routine maitenence only had been done, now put an 86 "Lexus" up against that! OH THAT'S RIGHT "LEXUS" WASN'T AROUND THEN!! But, they did make Toyota Corollas, so just add a pleather interior and fake wood and there's your 86 "Lexus".:p

corgiman

Actually, I think Lexus has done us all a favor as Mercedes owners. By coming up with a high-content and high-quality product at a lower price they have pushed MB to upgrade their content and lower the prices. As for the ongoing discusssion about declining MB build quality I don't know....

If imitation is flattery then one glance at a Lexus will confirm that it is clearly a pale copy of whatever the current S class looks like.

s810

If you're going to define "build quality" as "durable" then take your 1986 Corolla, perform the routine maintenance and you've got a car that's still on the road as well. It won't have the same ride as a 300E but it never did and nobody would expect the same ride from a car that cost roughly one fifth as much as a 300E.

And if you want to bag on the Japanese for copying other people's designs, take a number, get in line. The Americans (or Germans, or Dutch, or Swiss, or whatever) invent it and the Japanese make it smaller, cheaper, and better. Maybe if the round-eyes would stop whining and keep innovating, the Japanese wouldn't have the chance to take over whatever market they're zeroing in on. I can remember when "made in japan" meant low-cost, low-quality crap and I'm not even forty yet. They must have done something right to change that perception as quickly as they did.

And since you brought up the absurdity of American consumers accepting a new line of Toyotas that did nothing more than copy our beloved Benzes: which came first, the LX-450 or the M-class? Don't get me started on the absurdity of the whole SUV phenomenon fad in general. Why all the yuppie morons I see on the LA freeways would buy a four wheel drive vehicle designed for off-roading when they know perfectly well that their tires are never ever going to touch dirt speaks volumes for the herd mentality. Why Mercedes would go after that market at all is beyond me and and then to do so with a class of vehicle that has done more to trash the MB reputation for quality than any vehicle I can recall is downright depressing. At least you can say the Krauts* beat Buick to market with an SUV. I guess.

--------------------------------------------
*I can say that. My family is German.

moxieman2

Let me start out by saying... I know the "LX-whatever" came out before the M-Class. But, if I recall correctly the M-class was not intended to be a competitor of that. The Benz was smaller, more luxurious, and clear a better vehicle being a Benz and all. Then when it starts to sell, Toyota or "Lexus" copies and comes out w/ a smaller SUV the "RX-whatever", to be an M-class competitor. So I think that takes care of that issue. Anyone else?

E 4.3

Dude, I'm trying to stay cool, but you're obviously looking for a fight. Though I don't intend to argue with you or even try to change your mind, I would like to know what you drive now and why you have so much animosity toward Lexus. Why are you as angry with Infiniti or Acura? Let me just ask you... were you smoked by a GS400 (souped up Tercel in your mind) and it is messing with your head?

Oh, and finally (this will really make you mad), go NOW to www.finestsedan.com

I am looking forward to more of your misdirected anger. I hope that, at this point, you feel like a fool. You're on a Mercedes-Benz forum board trying to trash Lexus and you are hard pressed to get anybody to agree with you. If I were you, I wouldn't try this on the Lexus forum, I'd just turn my computer off in shame and probably sell it. At the very least, I would change my username.

Long live LEXUS!

s810

The RX-whatever was introduced in Spring 1998 as a 1999 model. Wasn't the M-class introduced around the same time? To say that Toyota saw the popularity of the M-class, decided it was worth copying, retooled its factories to build the RX whatever, and got a competitive product to market by Spring of 1998 is giving them too much credit. Lexus is good but they ain't THAT good!

I gotta wonder myself why you got your panties in a twist over Lexus. Did you buy a Mercedes to impress the women but find out that the Lexus owner next door still gets more dates? When I bought my Camry LE in 1994, I kinda wondered why somebody would buy a Lexus ES300 when they could buy a Camry XLE and have essentially the same car for $5,000 less. But I never felt that my choice made me a better person.

But now I wonder if the ES300 driver looked at me and was filled with seething hatred because I was driving a car he saw as a cheap imitation of his beloved Lexus. I hope not but if so, oh well. It's not my fault if other people make stupid decisions.

Let's set aside any disagreement and assume that you are correct. Lexus is crap and Mercedes is God but the misinformed masses don't know this and therefore Lexus is a genuine threat to Mercedes. So what should we do about? A trade embargo keeping Lexus from importing any vehicles? A tax or tariff to ensure that Lexus can't sell its cars for less than a similar Mercedes. File a "look and feel" lawsuit against Lexus for copying Mercedes Benz. Put flyer on the windshields the Lexus' we see in the parking lot of supermarkets informing their owners that they are morons? Organize a boycott? Write our congressman? Shoot out the windows of Lexus dealerships?

s810

BTW-what is "pleather?" I figure it's a word that is suppose to denigrate the dead animal skin that Lexus uses but where does it come from? Is it like a hybrid of plastic-leather? Just curious.

HdS500

It is fake leather made of vinyl.

Fast Eddy

Sounds like the angry dude owns Tercel, you all were right, but with the rest you were wrong----- when paps and maps bought him Tercel the deal was that he does not get new car untill Tercel stops running, I belive the dude has 500k miles on his Tercel but it still drives like new so he can't get new car(whatever that may be). Hence the dude is angry towards the car for not dying after 500k.
As to the plether-------the Dude preffers fabric covers on his car seats.

BrabusCClass

Sounds like you skipped the point of the thread. LOL. The link earlier is so funny. I was laughing so hard.

As a MB owner I like my MB. But I know that Lexus is also a fine vehicle and I give credit where credit is due.

aborwick

Lexus may be fine brand; what distinguishes Mercedes-Benz above all brands is the devotion to safety. In my humble opinion, M-Bs are simply engineered to be the safest cars on the road.

mbtech208

If a Lexus is a Toyota with leather, a Mercedes is a German Chevy. And there's nothing wrong with saying it's a Toyota with leather, that's not really an insult. Saying it's a Kia with leather would be an insult. I'm around Benzes new and old, high mileage and low mileage, every day. At the risk of offending everybody on this board, they're not really all that great, at least not as great as they used to be. Brand-new C-classes with keys that don't work, shifters that fall off. ML's with rattles right off the assembly line. Many problems with COMAND, CD players, radios, GPS, etc... Great cars from a technicians standpoint, because they pay my bills. But would I buy one? I don't know. I'm buying a Lexus SC400.

mleskovar

Hey mbtech208...read this first before you buy :-)


http://cgi.latimes.com/class/highway...000018575.html

I read over a hundred posts on a Lexus forum and there was only one mechanical defect complaint ..."I think my blinker on one side blinks faster than the other side". You cannot fault Lexus for reliability. MB made it's reputation in the US partly based on reliability and now it needs to restore that reputation. I bought my C based on my vision of driveability and I'm not disappointed.

corgiman

Wow, MB tech, you sound kind of, well -- bitter. Of course, you only see the MB's with problems. And there is no doubt that MB has struggled with quality as the pressure for content and frequent updating has mounted.

Still, German cars are about German approach to designing and building a car. Part of their appeal is the complex and/or costly technology that mark them as German.

I once had a neighbor who was a engineer and described various engineers as: American - always the cheapest solution, English - the most practical approach, but not always well made, Japanese - a amalgam of other people's ideas - superbly made and assembelled and German - engineers who get an idea and make it work no matter how costly and complex their idea becomes....
That's part of the attraction.

Ski Guru

Man, I agree and resemble that REMARK!

This is why I love GERMAN cars and design!

There is a special attraction for a DREAMER that executes his or her dream!

Is that not the definition of ENGINEERING? (solve problems through thought and design) Germans take that to a higher level as they solve problems to the n'th degree and sometimes one better!

"Lead Follow or GET out of the WAY!" Describes your friends explaination of Engineers the world over, apply it to the definition to AMerican, English and Japaneese teams. I must comment however you left out some of the most romantic design teams the Italians and the French! ALright the FRENCH are also rans but the Italians are truley pace setters with PASSION for Automobiles!

bugfighter

No problem with Toyota and Lexus cars for me. Apples and oranges when compared to Mercedes. I currently own 2 Toyotas and 2 Mercedes. I like 'em all. For different reasons.

CS1946

I agree quite a lot with the previous post. German cars and Japanese cars excel in different areas. German cars, I feel, are for 'enthusiasts' who appreciate cars and enjoy driving. These people will take a little bit less refinement (at least in older German cars--not a problem with newer ones) in order to savor the intrinsic 'goodness' of these innovative, class-leading automobiles.

Japanese cars, on the other hand, evolved to suit people who view cars more as appliances than objects of passion. Lexus, Acura and Infiniti continue this ideal, but cater to those with more money. There are exceptions, like the GS, Miata, 1st gen. Q45, etc. But generally, refinement and reliability without passion are the hallmarks of most Japanese cars. Park an '86 4-cyl. Camry next to my '86 BMW 528e and see which one idles more quietly. Yet my car originally cost more than twice as much as the Camry.

I think the Japanese are best at taking a sound concept and perfecting it. Although my preference remains with German cars, I respect anyone who values the qualities found in a Japanese vehicle.

mbtech208

Well said, Craig

MBDriver

Ok,
A few things here.

That was a little over the top in my opinion but its ok.
When I was looking for a car about 2 months ago I looked at everything. I looked at the new Maxima (nice but i moved on to a BMW), I looked at a BMW 325i and liked it but my dad thought it was too small. But he liked it more than the Max so he thought ok why not. When we went home that night, he looked at the E 320 and after debating btw the two (MB and BMW) he decided that he would put in the extra 10g's to buy the Benz. It was partially because he is biased toward benz. I asked about an IS300 but he said he wouldnt pay that much for a Japanese car. I would have loved to get an IS300 for one reason only. It has the same engine as the Supra (I've heard that the Lexus GS300 also has the same engine as the Supra). I came from the import market to the German market. I know a lot about the import market. You have to respect it (no two ways about it). Please check out the link I've provided. Now if anyone reads this and just disregards it, then there is no use talking to you about the subject.

Here's the link:
www.turboimports.com

CS1946

Yes, I looked at the site, and it's very nice. Unfortunately, I have never been interested in the import market; more of a German car fan. I like the Supra quite a lot. Great that Lexus has used and continues to use the base non-turbo engine in the GS300, SC300, and IS300.

I'd take the E320 over the 325i too if money was no object. Please have fun with whatever car you end up with!!