vraa

If you notice between the LS430 and the G500, both have four doors, both have four wheels, and you can see headlights on both

Gekko: It's hard to make supporting arguments of Lexus with you around, not that it's a bad thing

As a question, do any of the Mercedes products have automatic air vents a la LS430?

W210

Indeed!

Gekko

>"Correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't MOST parts constructed equally? Putting aside the specially made AMG or M components I think car parts are pretty much equal. I don't think Lexus components are manufactured any differently than the MB components. I think it has more to do with the mentality of the automaker of the vehicle."

This post is from another forum - it's an interesting read:

Toyota designs cars in an entirely different way from other manufacturers. They design it from the bottom up, that is mostly from already proven components from other models. New technology is applied but always with backup components throughout most of the design process. Therefore, regardless of costs, new car models will be consistently reliable. Other manufacturers primarily design a car from the top down with comprehensive specifications which drive too much new design throughout all the components. The result is poor long term reliability, but bunches of new technologies spread throughout the car. The bottom line is that Toyota knows how to blend new technologies with proven components, regardless of costs.

Toyota and Honda operate 6 sigma production target facilities and give workers the ability to shut down the line if components dont' fit or meet spec. They design their cars to be assembled only one way - the right way. Suppliers are driven mercilessly. They carefully track when, where and from which supplier faulty parts come from, so Toyota can return them. If the supplier defect level is too high, they shut them off. The amazing thing about the process is that the supply chain grows and learns to be very responsive and very competitive. It's even working in the U.S. where turning out crap and sending it to Detroit was a way of life for suppliers long before Toyota and Honda showed up. Toyota and Honda have the 'platform' approach to design, where a basic engine/transmission and drive train / chassis is targetted at a wide variety of market segments. Small changes in tuning, transmission ratios and engine computer horsepower / torgue curves are mated to chassis/suspension to meet performance needs. Toyota and Honda amortize the significant R&D over a very large volume to achieve cost effectiveness. Look at the FWD 3.0 V6 ULEV engine/drivetrain platform that goes into the Camry, Solara, Sienna, Avalon, RX300, ES300, and Highlander. I think the annual volume for these vehicles is somewhere north of 750,000 in the US alone.

Toyota will always able to make cars cheaper cause they have supplier bend backwards for them. I am an electrical engineer, every time we ask price quote, distributors ask for annual quantity. Why cause the more you buy the cheaper per unit the cost, they drool everytime you said maybe in 250K instead of 100K per year. Again why Toyota can get parts cheaper they share components with Lexus, how BMW and MB can do that (OK MB maybe can do that with it's Chrysler division now). Also your cost for tooling is more when for example BMW making engine mold for engine that they make about 50K compare to Lexus+Toyo that can churn maybe 100K or more.

W210

Ok!

S55inPA

gekko,

from what i've read it seems that most manufacturers hold their suppliers very accountable as far as parts quality. sharing.....GM and Ford share entire platforms between the various makes that they own for cost savings(opel,volvo,jag,saturn,cadillac,buick etc. ). this is hardly anything new. i do believe that in this era of automobile manufacturing having the ability to share parts is a cost saver for the larger manufacturers but....honda is not that big a manufacturer and still thrives in the market place. the same might be said of BMW. so...size alone does not dictate success or efficiency.

also keep this in mind....the more toyota shares parts and designs with its lexus brand it only reinforces the thought in many people minds that lexus has nothing unique to offer the upscale buyer. i have read many times on these boards that people are accused of being blinded by the 3 pointed star of MB. i think it is fair to ask this.....i wonder if people are being blinded by the sales pitch "lexus the relentless pursuit of perfection" when basically what they are getting is a toyota with some lamenated wood grain in it.

imho this is why lexus vehicles will never be considered anything unique. simply because in many ways they are not. they are nice cars for the money but certainly in many ways they are not the equal of the top German brands.

I was framed.

I disagree. Lexus has nothing unique to offer the upscale buyer? I don't mean to be rude but where the heck have you been the past 15 years???? Check out the LS430!!!

You can get a LS430 with the Modern Luxury Package with Additional Options
$6,409.00
Modern Luxury Package with Mark Levinson® 11-speaker 240-watt Premium Audio System, Lexus DVD Navigation System with voice-command NAV button, Backup Camera and Bluetooth™, 4-spoke wood and leather steering wheel with Voice command, Front climate-comfort seats with heat/cool knob, Rear-seat heaters and Intuitive Parking Assist.

- Sport Package with Polished-Finish Alloy Wheels
- SmartAccess
- Wheel Locks
- Trunk Mat
- Cargo Net

which amounts to about 62k. The BASE model for the S430 costs a whopping $74,320.00 as quoted on mbusa.com! A similarly equipped S430 would set you back a *ahem* $83,690.00! Am I the only one that thinks that's ridiculous? One could argue that the Lexus would never drive like the S430. Well the S430 doesn't drive all that great either! One could also argue that the LS430 is ugly. Well guess what? Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I could say the S55 is ugly (I don't ) and you can't do a thing to change my opinion. To say Lexus has nothing to offer to the upscale buyer is sheer ignorance.

Of course they are not equal to the German brands. They offer the same car (uh oh!) for about 20 THOUSAND dollars less. I don't think anyone can match that.

S55inPA

like i said....they are nice cars for the money. Lexus autos are good values but until the exceed what MB and BMW and Audi offer they will always be a step behind. you know the first part of my post...nice cars for the money....is actually a compliment!

W210

You have to factor in the cost of the upgraded tires/suspension in the comparison as well.

I got car sick test driving the LS430, way too 'floaty', the car desperately needs the sports or don't they call it 'the European suspension' to compare its driving dynamics to a S430. The ride would be marginally acceptable if only confined to city driving but once you hit moderate speed, the softly tuned suspension spoils everything. I find the S430 far easier to control in emergency situation.

It all depends on what the customer requires. For a mere extra 2 grand, one can have the security of all wheel drive in the S-class which is not available on any Lexus sedan.

The LS430 is the only Lexus I would consider, and only if I were relocated to a big city, NYC, London, HK, Tokyo where a hired driver will be doing most of the driving.

I have no objection with the exterior of the LS430, but the interior I find extremely gaudy. Why can't they have nice nappa leather and more elegant wood trims? I find the overly yellow or red wood trims rather offensive, clashing with the sea of grey buttons.

I absolutely understand why many MB owners choose the S-class over the LS430. To many people, Lexus simply does not have the prestige and reputation. Heck the LS430 could be 50% cheaper than the S-class and many MB owners will still not go for it. For those who cannot afford the MB, the $10k, $20k may sound like a lot of money, but this may truly mean very little to others.

The value thing is completely subjective. I would not get an RS6 or any Aston Martin or Jaguar due to the pathetic resale value, but others may not care whatsoever buying cars in the price range. An extreme case would be the most expensive sedan DC sells, many may not understand why someone would pick a Maybach over the S600, for example.

If I were to drive the car myself, definitely an MB, BMW or Audi. To be driven, perhaps a LS with that nice stereo.

W210

That's an interesting comment.

I think it holds true especially in markets where a similar Toyota product is sold side by side with the Lexus version. For me, somehow I think the ES is the least desirable Lexus car perhaps due to the fact that I can spend much less yet receive largely the same quality on a much cheaper Camry.

For the LS, GS, I don't feel as much as I don't see their Toyota sister around. And I always think the LX470 is a rip off, preferring the Land Cruiser.

I was framed.

They're pretty must equal in equipment. The Lexus package I chose wasn't even fully loaded while the S430 was pretty much all that can be had.

vraa

$72036 total for a completly loaded LS430 without discounts (which you could get at least a few grand)

$96265 total for a completly loaded S430 without discounts blah blah blah

Oh my gosh.

Guest0001

Or you can buy an S55 and **** on any Lexus.

vraa

LOL!

W210

Of course, the AMG then is a different class altogether.

I wish Lexus would enter the supersedan picture and bring in some competition. However, I suspect they would work on things like AWD to catch up to BMW, Audi, MB, Infiniti before making a truly high performance sedan.

vraa

W210: I'm afraid it might be too long for Lexus to enter the supersedan picture and Mercedes would've fixed their act by then. Remember, they are very cautious when trying new things.

I was framed.

I would take a twin turbo V300 TOYOTA ( ) Aristo anyday. It's a Supra with 4 doors. You could smoke the E55.

vraa

I thought the Aristo was the GS?

Guest0001

Yeah. But its still a Toyota...
































(Joke of course)

W210

I think you're right, the Aristo is the GS.

I have test driven an Aristo with twin turbo overseas 6 years ago and it was slow. Not even as quick as the 1999-2002 W210 E55 let alone the current supercharged version.

Don't recall Toyota ever selling an Aristo in North America, let alone the V300 ? version.

The bottom line is that Toyota North America has already pulled the plug on the Supra a few years ago and they simply choose not to compete in the high performance area at the moment.

W210

I would take the E55 any day, in fact, I would take the C32 over any Toyota, modified grey market import or not!

Tell us more about the V300 Aristo though, have you driven it, is it nice? I test drove a twin turbo Aristo a few years ago and was not impressed. I find the GS400 back then handled much better with stronger acceleration.

I was framed.

You can swap the turbos... FAST is the word!

W210

Sure

Ronin37

Hey Guys, haven't been around lately. Just thought I would say high and leave you with this great Smile.



I'm sure you will all use it, wisely.

vraa

Don't even start with the BMW. That's a whole different argument all together. Even so when the LS430 luxo barge beats the "oh it's supposed to be fast too" 745Li in 0-60 times.

evanichka

i don't see what all the fuss is about

i mean, lexus is a great car, no doubt. i would choose it over 90% of the cars out there. But, it's no where near the name recognition as a Benz. i dunno, but last time i checked, rappers were talking about their bling bling benz, not their toyotas... i mean their lexus. not that i care what those ppl rap about. and sadly, in this capitalist world, image is everything. otherwise, why drive a luxury car? i would prefer everyone drive hybrid cars to get from point A to point B.

if i only could buy only one car, then lexus might be it. after all, it IS reliable and they are nice luxury cars. but if you have the money, WTF would you have to break a sweat about HAVING to buy a lexus over say benz or audis or jags. people i know who collect cars (i'm talking about the multi-millionaire to billionaire range) DO own Lexus. But what do they like to brag about? Their Ferraris, Lambos, Aston Martins, and Benz. One thing they complain about tho, is that the new S series trunk is smaller than the older ones due to the curve at the back thus you can't fit four large golf bags in the trunk which is a pity lol.

yes, you are your own individual and it doesnt matter what other people think. this is just my (biased) opinion.

flame on

btw i left out BMW's since they are butt ugly now... i can't stare at the new models without making a very disgusted face. the older BMW's were so much sexier (mmm 7 series...). what a pity.