Diesel development...?
#1
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![Question](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/icons/icon5.gif)
Maybe I just didn't get the whole CDI and Bluetec thing but in the May/June 2006 issue of "The Star" which is a MB Club of America magazine has an good article on the new diesel.
Here is what I thought....
I was under the impression that the ML, R and GL would come out in the Fall with a CDI version which would be based on the current CDI in the E320 we have here in the states. Then later in 2007/08 the new Bluetec would start to replace the CDI models. Not so.
I've attached a clip from the article explaining what the rollout will be. Did anyone else misunderstand what was going to happen?
Also, the article hints to the fact that the new Bluetec could possible increase the cost of the new diesel models versus todays reasonable uprgrade from the gas engine.
Here is what I thought....
I was under the impression that the ML, R and GL would come out in the Fall with a CDI version which would be based on the current CDI in the E320 we have here in the states. Then later in 2007/08 the new Bluetec would start to replace the CDI models. Not so.
I've attached a clip from the article explaining what the rollout will be. Did anyone else misunderstand what was going to happen?
Also, the article hints to the fact that the new Bluetec could possible increase the cost of the new diesel models versus todays reasonable uprgrade from the gas engine.
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Originally Posted by AutoSaurus
I was under the impression that the ML, R and GL would come out in the Fall with a CDI version which would be based on the current CDI in the E320 we have here in the states. Then later in 2007/08 the new Bluetec would start to replace the CDI models. Not so.
"As rising fuel costs continued to be an issue for consumers in October, sales of the E320 CDI diesel have continued to increase over the past several months with 3,486 units sold year-to-date. To meet this strong demand Mercedes-Benz will expand its diesel offering with the introduction of the ML320 CDI diesel in 2006, followed by a new V6 E320 CDI."
MBUSA press release dated November 1, 2005
Instead the new 3.0 liter V6 will be used in the E320CDI Bluetec, and in the ML320CDI starting in October, the R320CDI starting in the 4th quarter of 2006 and the GL320 CDI starting early in 2007. I have no date yet for the S320 CDI.
Too bad Mercedes plans to increase the price of diesels. One reason for their popularity in Europe is their lower purchase price than the equivalent gas car.
Last edited by Wolfgang; 05-11-2006 at 10:40 AM.
#3
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Thanks for the clarification. I guess I just it assumed it was the same diesel engine being used now since the CDI was used in previous discussions.
According to the article, this new CDI engine is actually the new bluetec it just doesn't add the urea which makes it 50 state approved. That will come later on in 07/08.
According to the article, this new CDI engine is actually the new bluetec it just doesn't add the urea which makes it 50 state approved. That will come later on in 07/08.
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Originally Posted by AutoSaurus
According to the article, this new CDI engine is actually the new bluetec it just doesn't add the urea which makes it 50 state approved. That will come later on in 07/08.
#7
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The Globe and Mail article
endary reliability, longevity, efficiency and performance. In Europe, where fuel costs roughly twice what it does here, diesel engines power more than half of all passenger vehicles.
But they remain an almost insignificant factor here. Part of this is due to a reputation for being noisy and smelly and stupid attempts to convert gasoline engines to diesels. But it is mostly due to relatively cheap fuel in general and no price break for diesel fuel in particular.
The noisy and smelly part is now pretty much history, with the newest generation of diesels, and fuel prices are climbing at a scary rate. Hopefully, regulators will soon realize that taxing diesel at such an exorbitant rate is going to hurt in the long run.
One thing regulators have done is force oil companies to produce and make available cleaner diesel fuel. The huge amounts of sulphur in fuel has a nasty corrosive effect on emission-control equipment -- as well as our lungs. But as of this fall, cleaner diesel fuel will be available across North America, encouraging the introduction of a new generation of clean diesels.
Some of the most interesting and promising of these will come from Mercedes-Benz, which has a long history of diesel engine prowess dating back to 1936 when it became the first manufacturer to offer a diesel-powered passenger vehicle, the 260-D.
During the "fuel crisis," up to 80 per cent of the cars Mercedes sold in North America were diesels, more than 400,000 of them. With prices on the rise again, the possibility of cutting fuel costs by as much as 30 per cent should make diesels attractive again.
J.D. Power forecasts diesels will make up 15 per cent of the market in North America and Japan by 2015 compared to the current figures of 3.2 per cent and 0.2 per cent. Including the astonishing growth expected in China, diesel share of the market is expected to grow to about 30 per cent worldwide by 2015.
One of the developments expected to help diesel growth comes from Mercedes and is called BlueTec.
Diesel is a lower distillate, making it cheaper to produce. But that also means it is inherently dirtier. Mercedes uses a four-step process to reduce emissions:
Optimize engines and their combustion process to minimize in-cylinder emissions through cleaner fuel and such technology as electronic engine management, four valves per cylinder, third-generation common-rail injection, variable nozzle turbochargers and exhaust gas recirculation;
Use oxidizing catalytic converters to minimize emissions of carbon monoxide (CO) and unburned hydrocarbons (HC);
Use particulate filters (introduced by Mercedes in 2003) to remove 98 per cent of the soot particles, and;
Reduce nitrogen oxides, which remain the only component of diesel exhaust with levels above a gasoline engine.
This last step is the basis for BlueTec, which will be used on the E320 CDi coming this fall when the new cleaner fuel will be available.
The BlueTec process starts with several advanced catalytic converters and a particulate filter. One of the catalysts stores nitrogen oxides and is regenerated at regular intervals, producing ammonia and reducing the NO{-x}.
Another converter downstream uses that ammonia to cut nitrogen oxides even further, leaving nothing else behind other than harmless nitrogen and water found in the air we breathe.
A second BlueTec process involves injecting a tiny amount of fluid into the exhaust stream, and it is even more effective. To be used on the same engine in the new GL-Class SUV this fall, this process is already in use in Europe on more than 10,000 commercial trucks.
After the exhaust gases have been cleansed, a precisely measured amount of urea is introduced into the exhaust. This results in the generation of ammonia, which divides nitrogen oxides into nitrogen and water vapour. BlueTec thus cuts nitrogen oxides by about 80 per cent.
Mercedes refers to the harmless aqueous solution as "AdBlue" and it is carried in a small tank in the spot normally used for the spare tire. Each tank is sufficient for the mileage between regular service intervals, at which point the technician will refill the container.
This second BlueTec system allows a diesel to meet the toughest emission standards in the world, including those proposed for 2009. This should be of particular interest on this side of the Atlantic where bigger and heavier vehicles are popular because diesels are known for their tremendous torque, which better suits not only that vehicle type, but our driving habits.
For example Mercedes says the GL320 diesel will average or 9 litres per 100 km.
Look for this technology to make its way to other DaimlerChrysler products as well, such as various Jeeps.
globeauto@globeandmail.com
The rules
Regulations regarding the amount of sulphur permitted in diesel fuel were introduced in 2004. The goal was to ensure sulphur levels did not impede the use and effectiveness of emission-control technologies available on new vehicles and engines.
The requirements were aligned with those set by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) in the United States. They call for a decrease in the current levels of 500 mg per kilogram of fuel to be cut to 15 mg/kg in June for production and imports and Sept. 1 for sales, allowing time for the old fuel to be sold off and the new fuel to be available coast to coast.
But, because fuel moves through pipelines, tankers, storage tanks, bulk plants and service stations that have previously contained fuel with the higher levels of sulphur, there existed the chance of contamination of the new fuel by the old. So the regulations were changed to 22 mg/kg for a 45-day "grace" period from Sept. 1 to Oct 15, 2006.
But they remain an almost insignificant factor here. Part of this is due to a reputation for being noisy and smelly and stupid attempts to convert gasoline engines to diesels. But it is mostly due to relatively cheap fuel in general and no price break for diesel fuel in particular.
The noisy and smelly part is now pretty much history, with the newest generation of diesels, and fuel prices are climbing at a scary rate. Hopefully, regulators will soon realize that taxing diesel at such an exorbitant rate is going to hurt in the long run.
One thing regulators have done is force oil companies to produce and make available cleaner diesel fuel. The huge amounts of sulphur in fuel has a nasty corrosive effect on emission-control equipment -- as well as our lungs. But as of this fall, cleaner diesel fuel will be available across North America, encouraging the introduction of a new generation of clean diesels.
Some of the most interesting and promising of these will come from Mercedes-Benz, which has a long history of diesel engine prowess dating back to 1936 when it became the first manufacturer to offer a diesel-powered passenger vehicle, the 260-D.
During the "fuel crisis," up to 80 per cent of the cars Mercedes sold in North America were diesels, more than 400,000 of them. With prices on the rise again, the possibility of cutting fuel costs by as much as 30 per cent should make diesels attractive again.
J.D. Power forecasts diesels will make up 15 per cent of the market in North America and Japan by 2015 compared to the current figures of 3.2 per cent and 0.2 per cent. Including the astonishing growth expected in China, diesel share of the market is expected to grow to about 30 per cent worldwide by 2015.
One of the developments expected to help diesel growth comes from Mercedes and is called BlueTec.
Diesel is a lower distillate, making it cheaper to produce. But that also means it is inherently dirtier. Mercedes uses a four-step process to reduce emissions:
Optimize engines and their combustion process to minimize in-cylinder emissions through cleaner fuel and such technology as electronic engine management, four valves per cylinder, third-generation common-rail injection, variable nozzle turbochargers and exhaust gas recirculation;
Use oxidizing catalytic converters to minimize emissions of carbon monoxide (CO) and unburned hydrocarbons (HC);
Use particulate filters (introduced by Mercedes in 2003) to remove 98 per cent of the soot particles, and;
Reduce nitrogen oxides, which remain the only component of diesel exhaust with levels above a gasoline engine.
This last step is the basis for BlueTec, which will be used on the E320 CDi coming this fall when the new cleaner fuel will be available.
The BlueTec process starts with several advanced catalytic converters and a particulate filter. One of the catalysts stores nitrogen oxides and is regenerated at regular intervals, producing ammonia and reducing the NO{-x}.
Another converter downstream uses that ammonia to cut nitrogen oxides even further, leaving nothing else behind other than harmless nitrogen and water found in the air we breathe.
A second BlueTec process involves injecting a tiny amount of fluid into the exhaust stream, and it is even more effective. To be used on the same engine in the new GL-Class SUV this fall, this process is already in use in Europe on more than 10,000 commercial trucks.
After the exhaust gases have been cleansed, a precisely measured amount of urea is introduced into the exhaust. This results in the generation of ammonia, which divides nitrogen oxides into nitrogen and water vapour. BlueTec thus cuts nitrogen oxides by about 80 per cent.
Mercedes refers to the harmless aqueous solution as "AdBlue" and it is carried in a small tank in the spot normally used for the spare tire. Each tank is sufficient for the mileage between regular service intervals, at which point the technician will refill the container.
This second BlueTec system allows a diesel to meet the toughest emission standards in the world, including those proposed for 2009. This should be of particular interest on this side of the Atlantic where bigger and heavier vehicles are popular because diesels are known for their tremendous torque, which better suits not only that vehicle type, but our driving habits.
For example Mercedes says the GL320 diesel will average or 9 litres per 100 km.
Look for this technology to make its way to other DaimlerChrysler products as well, such as various Jeeps.
globeauto@globeandmail.com
The rules
Regulations regarding the amount of sulphur permitted in diesel fuel were introduced in 2004. The goal was to ensure sulphur levels did not impede the use and effectiveness of emission-control technologies available on new vehicles and engines.
The requirements were aligned with those set by the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) in the United States. They call for a decrease in the current levels of 500 mg per kilogram of fuel to be cut to 15 mg/kg in June for production and imports and Sept. 1 for sales, allowing time for the old fuel to be sold off and the new fuel to be available coast to coast.
But, because fuel moves through pipelines, tankers, storage tanks, bulk plants and service stations that have previously contained fuel with the higher levels of sulphur, there existed the chance of contamination of the new fuel by the old. So the regulations were changed to 22 mg/kg for a 45-day "grace" period from Sept. 1 to Oct 15, 2006.
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#8
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2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
Looking at those dates I'd say that Mercedes would be wise to wait until Nov 1st before releasing the new V6 diesel models to the public for sale. I can hear it now, engine failures due to someone getting diesel in some far out place in which all of the old diesel wasn't sold off! In fact it might be wise to wait until Dec 1st just to make sure. The thought of MB engine failures and surveys being filled out about it makes me queasy.
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Wolf, I'm aware that Mercedes is calling it new, but if you go to Germancarfans you'll see that it is a through revision of the old engine, not a totally new design. They basically added about 45 hp to the old 260hp unit of the same displacement, 4.0L.
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M, I guess it's semantics. Since MB gave it a new engine designation OM629 instead of reusing OM628, I would say it's a new engine. Like the W164 is a new M-Class and not another W163 version.
New 4.0 liter diesel V8: OM629
Old 4.0 liter diesel V8: OM628
PS. Greg posted some info here at mbworld:
https://mbworld.org/forums/m-class-w164/108666-new-v8-diesel-formally-announced.html
![rolf](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/rofl.gif)
New 4.0 liter diesel V8: OM629
Old 4.0 liter diesel V8: OM628
PS. Greg posted some info here at mbworld:
https://mbworld.org/forums/m-class-w164/108666-new-v8-diesel-formally-announced.html
Last edited by Wolfgang; 05-15-2006 at 10:10 PM.
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2013 650i Coupe, 2010 IS250 AWD, 1999 S500
Originally Posted by Wolfgang
M, I guess it's semantics. Since MB gave it a new engine designation OM629 instead of reusing OM628, I would say it's a new engine. Like the W164 is a new M-Class and not another W163 version.
New 4.0 liter diesel V8: OM629
Old 4.0 liter diesel V8: OM628
PS. Greg posted some info here at mbworld:
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=108666
![rolf](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/rofl.gif)
New 4.0 liter diesel V8: OM629
Old 4.0 liter diesel V8: OM628
PS. Greg posted some info here at mbworld:
https://mbworld.org/forums/showthread.php?t=108666
M
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Originally Posted by Germancar1
I guess so...no big deal....lol.
M
M
![rolf](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/rofl.gif)
BTW, I uploaded 2 pics so one can compare the V6 and V8.
http://www.whnet.com/4x4/pix/om629_01.jpg
http://www.whnet.com/4x4/pix/om642_01.jpg
#16
Originally Posted by Wolfgang
Too bad Mercedes plans to increase the price of diesels. One reason for their popularity in Europe is their lower purchase price than the equivalent gas car.
#18
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My Hope...
is that this indicates that the GL320 CDI, when it arrives, will indeed be priced substantially less than the 450. I know the ML 320 won't be substantially less than the ML 350 but looks like the GL 320 would be?
One can hope...one can also hope that they up the scheduled arrival time for us natives here in America who are itching to drive a diesel to coincide with the arrival of low-sulphur diesel in October.
One can hope...one can also hope that they up the scheduled arrival time for us natives here in America who are itching to drive a diesel to coincide with the arrival of low-sulphur diesel in October.
#19
i only looked at a/b/c/e-class. with those models, diesel are generally more expensive (eg. C280 (170 kW): 33.640 eur // C320cdi (165 kW): 38.976 eur)
didn't remeber that it's different for G/GL... we don't sell those too often.
EDIT: just reread you post... the equivalent GL diesel is more expensive, too (compared with equivalent horsepower)
didn't remeber that it's different for G/GL... we don't sell those too often.
EDIT: just reread you post... the equivalent GL diesel is more expensive, too (compared with equivalent horsepower)
Last edited by christian.baier; 05-31-2006 at 05:08 PM.
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Originally Posted by christian.baier
i only looked at a/b/c/e-class.
Instead let's look at the models which will be offered soon.
E320 CDI V6 40,700 EU
E350 V6 41,050 EU
ML320 CDI V6 42,700 EU
ML350 V6 42,100 EU
R320 CDI V6 45,000 EU
R350 V6 44,400 EU
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Originally Posted by carpersn
is that this indicates that the GL320 CDI, when it arrives, will indeed be priced substantially less than the 450. I know the ML 320 won't be substantially less than the ML 350 but looks like the GL 320 would be?
![Smilie](https://mbworld.org/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
The S-Class has a similar diesel pricing structure as the GL, it seems.
S320 CDI V6 57,800 EU
S350 V6..... 61,000 EU
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'01 911 Turbo, '04 V10 TDI Touareg, '95 E420
The real question is when will MB USA give us the GL420 CDI or the S420 CDI??!! The ML, RL, and especially the GL320 and S320 are complete slugs.
VW puts a V10 Diesel in its Touareg and Audi just announced that it will put its V12 TDI 500hp 738 lb ft torque Diesel in both its Q7 and A8. So what is Mercedes waiting for??!! When at least will we see its measly V8 Diesel??
VW puts a V10 Diesel in its Touareg and Audi just announced that it will put its V12 TDI 500hp 738 lb ft torque Diesel in both its Q7 and A8. So what is Mercedes waiting for??!! When at least will we see its measly V8 Diesel??
Last edited by JoeDiesel; 09-14-2006 at 07:39 PM.
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'01 911 Turbo, '04 V10 TDI Touareg, '95 E420
Real Diesel Development!!
While MBZ is putzing around with its wimpy 320 here's a real Diesel!
First reported by TREND Information - Baku,Azerbaijan and now AutoWeek.
Quaking Q7
Audi unveils world’s most powerful production car diesel![](http://www.autoweek.com/graphics/aw_spacer.gif)
AutoWeek | Published 09/11/06, 12:27 pm et
Fresh from its victory at Le Mans with a diesel-powered R10, Audi revealed plans to put a twin-turbocharged 6.0-liter V12 diesel in its Q7 sport/utility vehicle.
The Q7 V12 TDI goes on sale in mid-2007 following its world debut at the Paris motor show later this month. The engine is essentially two of Audi’s existing 3.0-liter V6 units mounted together on a common crankshaft. Audi says the four-valves-per-cylinder powerplant produces a whopping 500 hp—some 174 hp more than the German carmaker’s most powerful diesel engine to date, the 4.2-liter V8 found in European versions of the A8.
The real achievement of the new engine, however, is its mammoth torque, which swells to a peak of 738 lb-ft between 1750 and 3000 rpm, restricted only by the inability of the Q7’s ZF-engineered six-speed automatic gearbox to handle any more, says Audi.
![](http://cwimg.us.publicus.com/apps/pbcsi.dll/bilde?Site=CW&Date=20060911&Category=FREE&ArtNo=60911009&Ref=AR&Profile=1024&maxw=490)
Nevertheless, it’s still enough to make the new V12 the world’s most powerful production-car diesel engine, according to Ingolstadt. Unlike the 90-degree engine used in Audi’s R10 Le Mans winner, the production-car diesel is based around a 60-degree design. Audi says the V12 propels the Q7 from 0 to 62 mph in just 5.5 seconds.
Accompanying the new engine is a series of suspension upgrades along with the addition of ceramic brake discs. Other changes include a restyled grille and LED driving lights similar to those seen on the S6.
Any chance the V12 is headed into the upcoming R8 to create the world’s first diesel-powered supercar? Audi is tight-lipped on such plans, though clearly the idea is not lost on chairman Martin Winterkorn, who has continually hinted that diesel power is among the considerations for Audi’s upcoming two-seater.
First reported by TREND Information - Baku,Azerbaijan and now AutoWeek.
Quaking Q7
Audi unveils world’s most powerful production car diesel
![](http://www.autoweek.com/graphics/aw_spacer.gif)
AutoWeek | Published 09/11/06, 12:27 pm et
![](http://www.autoweek.com/graphics/aw_spacer.gif)
The Q7 V12 TDI goes on sale in mid-2007 following its world debut at the Paris motor show later this month. The engine is essentially two of Audi’s existing 3.0-liter V6 units mounted together on a common crankshaft. Audi says the four-valves-per-cylinder powerplant produces a whopping 500 hp—some 174 hp more than the German carmaker’s most powerful diesel engine to date, the 4.2-liter V8 found in European versions of the A8.
The real achievement of the new engine, however, is its mammoth torque, which swells to a peak of 738 lb-ft between 1750 and 3000 rpm, restricted only by the inability of the Q7’s ZF-engineered six-speed automatic gearbox to handle any more, says Audi.
Nevertheless, it’s still enough to make the new V12 the world’s most powerful production-car diesel engine, according to Ingolstadt. Unlike the 90-degree engine used in Audi’s R10 Le Mans winner, the production-car diesel is based around a 60-degree design. Audi says the V12 propels the Q7 from 0 to 62 mph in just 5.5 seconds.
Accompanying the new engine is a series of suspension upgrades along with the addition of ceramic brake discs. Other changes include a restyled grille and LED driving lights similar to those seen on the S6.
Any chance the V12 is headed into the upcoming R8 to create the world’s first diesel-powered supercar? Audi is tight-lipped on such plans, though clearly the idea is not lost on chairman Martin Winterkorn, who has continually hinted that diesel power is among the considerations for Audi’s upcoming two-seater.
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