350 Four-Banger
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2017 GLE350 4MATIC
In contrast, MB reduced base model horsepower from W166 to V167. Poor product management.
US models referred to.
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No, BMW increased base model horsepower on the X5 from F15 to G05. Porsche increased base model horsepower on the Cayenne from 92A to 9Y0. Audi increased base model horsepower from 4L to 4M.
In contrast, MB reduced base model horsepower from W166 to V167. Poor product management.
US models referred to.
In contrast, MB reduced base model horsepower from W166 to V167. Poor product management.
US models referred to.
Last edited by js_cls; 01-08-2022 at 09:08 PM.
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No, BMW increased base model horsepower on the X5 from F15 to G05. Porsche increased base model horsepower on the Cayenne from 92A to 9Y0. Audi increased base model horsepower from 4L to 4M.
In contrast, MB reduced base model horsepower from W166 to V167. Poor product management.
US models referred to.
In contrast, MB reduced base model horsepower from W166 to V167. Poor product management.
US models referred to.
Audi went from a 3.0T as base to 2.0T with less power. The majority of GLE, X5, and Q7 buyers do not care about power, you’re really making this a bigger deal than most care about. Mercedes own press materials rate the V166 slower to 60 than the V167 despite the horsepower decrease. The turbo allows power to come in at lower RPM as well as increase MPG.
Edit: Just to be clear, I meant the W166 GLE 350 and the V167 GLE 350 for comparison. Not Audi, Bmw comparing to Mercedes.
Last edited by W205C43PFL; 01-08-2022 at 10:50 PM.
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chassis (01-08-2022)
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Audi went from a 3.0T as base to 2.0T with less power. The majority of GLE, X5, and Q7 buyers do not care about power, you’re really making this a bigger deal than most care about. Mercedes own press materials rate the V166 slower to 60 than the V167 despite the horsepower decrease. The turbo allows power to come in at lower RPM as well as increase MPG.
Correct again on the Audi. So MB is offering Audi levels of base model horsepower, below the levels offered by Porsche and BMW. BMW and Porsche understandably command a base model price premium, one reason being higher horsepower. Other reasons create a long list of advantages.
MB went downmarket with the V167 base GLE 350.
Last edited by chassis; 01-08-2022 at 11:03 PM.
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Because the vast majority of GLE’s sold are 350’s. While MB does make a model with power equivalent to the Audi 3.0T and BMW 3.0T at similar prices, that model sells in smaller numbers. The majority of GLE customers are not enthusiasts and simply just people wanting a luxury car. Forums represent a small number of owners.
The Audi and Mercedes offer base models below $60k, that’s their choice, it offers greater market accessibility. Each brand offers different version of “base.” Comparing a GLE350 and Q7 2.0T to an X5 40i just because its labeled as the base model doesn’t make sense as the GLE450 and Q7 3.0T are the equivalent models and are also available for sale, its not like MB is forcing anyone to get a 350 to compare to the X5, they offer equivalent models.
As for the Porsche, its base model is $70k, incomparable to MB and Audi at a $15k difference, even the 450 and 3.0T are cheaper and offer greater performance. And in Porsche world, base means even a lack of keyless startup. If you want a Cayenne even close to the equipment levels of BMW, Audi, or MB you are paying a $20k premium. If you want a V8 in your Cayenne your paying $110k closer to a GLE63 or X5M with less performance, and is $30k more than both GLE580, X5 50i and $20k more than SQ7 which its more comparable to.
Again, I don’t understand why there are complaints of MB offering the 350 model, they are still offering models that offer competitive performance at similar pricing to their closest competitors. The GLE450 exists. And numbers only tell part of the story, again the GLE350 may have had a drop in horsepower, but it has two more gears, a turbocharger, torque is pretty similar but comes in much earlier, and has actually a quicker 0-60 time than the outgoing GLE350 while also achieving better MPG.
Even when the V166 was in production, the “base” GLE350’s performance was inferior to the X5 35i (as well as the new GLE350). of its time which was also the “base” X5. The GLE400 was much more competitive with the X5, despite also being more expensive than the X5 (2017 X5 35i xDrive was under $60k, 2017 GLE400 4Matic was $65k)
Correct again on the Audi. So MB is offering Audi levels of base model horsepower, below the levels offered by Porsche and BMW. BMW and Porsche understandably command a base model price premium, one reason being higher horsepower. Other reasons create a long list of advantages.
As for the Porsche, its base model is $70k, incomparable to MB and Audi at a $15k difference, even the 450 and 3.0T are cheaper and offer greater performance. And in Porsche world, base means even a lack of keyless startup. If you want a Cayenne even close to the equipment levels of BMW, Audi, or MB you are paying a $20k premium. If you want a V8 in your Cayenne your paying $110k closer to a GLE63 or X5M with less performance, and is $30k more than both GLE580, X5 50i and $20k more than SQ7 which its more comparable to.
Again, I don’t understand why there are complaints of MB offering the 350 model, they are still offering models that offer competitive performance at similar pricing to their closest competitors. The GLE450 exists. And numbers only tell part of the story, again the GLE350 may have had a drop in horsepower, but it has two more gears, a turbocharger, torque is pretty similar but comes in much earlier, and has actually a quicker 0-60 time than the outgoing GLE350 while also achieving better MPG.
Even when the V166 was in production, the “base” GLE350’s performance was inferior to the X5 35i (as well as the new GLE350). of its time which was also the “base” X5. The GLE400 was much more competitive with the X5, despite also being more expensive than the X5 (2017 X5 35i xDrive was under $60k, 2017 GLE400 4Matic was $65k)
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Lots of words, thanks for them. My point is MB has flubbed their product management and has gone downmarket with the V167 base model GLE 350. It's OK if you don't agree. It's a big world and we all fit in it. MB is swirling the drain in many ways in my view.
Total cumulative sales for the past 20 years appear by eyeing the charts to favor X5 over GLE/ML. 2020 for the GLE was a real kick in the shins from a sales volume point of view.
Total cumulative sales for the past 20 years appear by eyeing the charts to favor X5 over GLE/ML. 2020 for the GLE was a real kick in the shins from a sales volume point of view.
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Lots of words, thanks for them. My point is MB has flubbed their product management and has gone downmarket with the V167 base model GLE 350. It's OK if you don't agree. It's a big world and we all fit in it. MB is swirling the drain in many ways in my view.
Total cumulative sales for the past 20 years appear by eyeing the charts to favor X5 over GLE/ML. 2020 for the GLE was a real kick in the shins from a sales volume point of view.
Total cumulative sales for the past 20 years appear by eyeing the charts to favor X5 over GLE/ML. 2020 for the GLE was a real kick in the shins from a sales volume point of view.
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chassis (01-09-2022)
#33
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We came from a ‘15 GLK 350 to a ‘21 GLE 350, so dropped 50bhp or so with a larger body. I also drive a ‘20 911 so am used to cars with decent power. The 350 is adequate, not as smooth as the GLE and it uses a little more gas around town which surprised me. I did expect better mileage with the newer car even with the larger body.
Would I like a 450? Well, yes I would if it’s smoother and a bit more torquey than the 350 but do I need the 450, not if I’m being honest. If we used it to tow then maybe yes. But I would like to have the air suspension because the 350 doesn’t have the smoothest ride in my view. It’s just a little unsettled on any sort of uneven surface.
Would I like a 450? Well, yes I would if it’s smoother and a bit more torquey than the 350 but do I need the 450, not if I’m being honest. If we used it to tow then maybe yes. But I would like to have the air suspension because the 350 doesn’t have the smoothest ride in my view. It’s just a little unsettled on any sort of uneven surface.
#34
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I agree that the GLE 350 engine is not as powerful as the base engine in the X5. However, when evaluating both vehicles, that was the only aspect of the X5 that I liked more. Since I liked the design of the exterior of the GLE, the interior was was a generation ahead of the X5 , seating was better for me in the GLE, my decision was simple , GLE all the way. It would have been a completely different issue if the 350 was underpowered , it is not, at least for my needs and that’s all that matters. I am not a devout MB proponent, in fact I have owned 2 BMWs and they were great cars. For me horsepower is a component of what goes into my buying decision, there are so many other equally important issues to be evaluated.
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I always get a kick out of reading posts like this. You're not going to change the opinion of someone's who's already made up their mind. Besides, if everyone always agreed and wanted the exact same thing, it would be a boring world. Fortunately there is variety and choice. If you don't like value offered by the base GLE, you can buy something else. If enough consumers agree with you, it will get the manufacturer's attention. If not, then all the complaints in the world won't change a thing. Words are cheap, it's sales and profit that matter.
Last edited by TexAg91; 01-09-2022 at 06:09 PM.
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I always get a kick out of reading posts like this. You're not going to change the opinion of someone's who's already made up their mind. Besides, if everyone always agreed and wanted the exact same thing, it would be a boring world. Fortunately there is variety and choice. If you don't like value offered by the base GLE, you can buy something else. If enough consumers agree with you, it will get the manufacturer's attention. If not, then all the complaints in the world won't change a thing. Words are cheap, it's sales a profit that matter.
Last edited by W205C43PFL; 01-11-2022 at 12:22 PM. Reason: Added the word "Won't"
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chassis (01-09-2022)
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Interesting that Mercedes just released annual USA sales figures that show the most popular model of all is the GLE. Y-Y sales up 35% for the GLE. According to my dealer, 80% of GLE models sold are 350s. Someone must know what they’re doing!
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I always get a kick out of reading posts like this. You're not going to change the opinion of someone's who's already made up their mind. Besides, if everyone always agreed and wanted the exact same thing, it would be a boring world. Fortunately there is variety and choice. If you don't like value offered by the base GLE, you can buy something else. If enough consumers agree with you, it will get the manufacturer's attention. If not, then all the complaints in the world won't change a thing. Words are cheap, it's sales a profit that matter.
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'21 AMG53 wDPP & ARC, 19 GLC300 - Former- 10&14 ML BlueTecs, 20 GLE450 E-ABC, 15 Cayenne D, 17 Macan
Mercedes released its Q4 sales figures. GLE up substantially, brand leader for M-B.
https://media.mbusa.com/releases/mer...29574-vehicles
https://media.mbusa.com/releases/mer...29574-vehicles
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'21 AMG53 wDPP & ARC, 19 GLC300 - Former- 10&14 ML BlueTecs, 20 GLE450 E-ABC, 15 Cayenne D, 17 Macan
I'll be darned. I expected the GLE to be a healthy notch higher than the BMW.
I remain of the believe that the consumer loses in the base engine horsepower for the GLE 350 from W166 to V167. Assuming the base V167 GLE 350 price is lower than the base GLE 450 price, this puts the lowest price GLE below the lowest price X5. So MB is offering a cheapie econo version of the GLE with less horsepower than the prior W166 model.
In the late-teens the GLE 350 had a lower base model price, as it appears to have today, than the X5 35i but with equivalent horsepower. Now the starting price relationship has carried over into the new platforms, but MB has pulled a fast one on the customer and delivered less horsepower. Crummy product lifecycle management.
Entry level GLE customers are getting less with V167 than they did with W166. G05 customers on the other hand are getting more horsepower in the entry level model than the F15 customers did. Great product lifecycle management by BMW. Maybe it's one of the reasons BMW beat MB in total sales in 2021.
I remain of the believe that the consumer loses in the base engine horsepower for the GLE 350 from W166 to V167. Assuming the base V167 GLE 350 price is lower than the base GLE 450 price, this puts the lowest price GLE below the lowest price X5. So MB is offering a cheapie econo version of the GLE with less horsepower than the prior W166 model.
In the late-teens the GLE 350 had a lower base model price, as it appears to have today, than the X5 35i but with equivalent horsepower. Now the starting price relationship has carried over into the new platforms, but MB has pulled a fast one on the customer and delivered less horsepower. Crummy product lifecycle management.
Entry level GLE customers are getting less with V167 than they did with W166. G05 customers on the other hand are getting more horsepower in the entry level model than the F15 customers did. Great product lifecycle management by BMW. Maybe it's one of the reasons BMW beat MB in total sales in 2021.
The power delivery of the engine, coupled with a couple more gears, is particularly well sorted and brings the car to life.
In fact, if you spend any time driving them and comparing their performance, the 3.5 V6 was inadequate for the car, where the "four banger" finally gives the GLE enough power that you aren't disappointed every time you press the gas pedal. Yes, I've spent a lot of miles (thousands each) in the old 350, as well as the new 350, 450, and AMG versions.
Those who blindly follow the (obsolete) "There's no replacement for displacement" mantra, better not drive the new GLE 350. They'll have to eat crow, but they will probably not do it publicly. Another example - comparing the old 6.3L V8 with the new 4.0L, where the new engine just performs better.
Both the V167 chassis and new engine lineup (all of them) are miles ahead of the old ones, in performance as well as economy.
Saying that "Entry level GLE customers are getting less with V167 than they did with W166" is really an incorrect statement. They are getting a lot more, with a more modern, higher performance engine as well as a better chassis.
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#43
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In God I trust, all others bring data.
In 2020, Mercedes-Benz delivered approximately 691,000 compact cars (A-Class, A-Class Saloon, B-Class, CLA Coupé, CLA Shooting Brake, GLA and GLB) worldwide (+3.6%). Sales of SUVs (GLA, GLB, GLC, GLC Coupé, EQC, GLE, GLE Coupé, GLS and G-Class) were about 885,000 vehicles (+12.9%). The GLE (+32.3%) and GLS (+21.1%) in particular enjoyed high customer demand. (According to Best Selling Cars)
I appreciate a good debate, but this one has been decided. The GLE is Mercedes' best selling SUV, and 2021 sales are up 11% (in the US) over 2020 sales. Moreover, 2020 sales of the GLE (globally) were up 32% over 2019. The majority of GLE sales are 350s. Until that changes, Mercedes isn't changing anything.
Mercedes-Benz reports 2021 US sales of 329,574 vehicles
“Results for 2021 demonstrated the incredible demand for the Mercedes-Benz brand in the U.S. and worldwide despite ongoing supply challenges,” said Dimitris Psillakis, President and CEO of MBUSA. “Together with our Mercedes-Benz dealer partners, we will advance our position with the electric EQS-sedan, all new SL, new C-Class, EQE, EQS SUV and EQB in 2022 and further accelerate our long term ambitions for an electric future.”
Mercedes-Benz volume leaders in Q4 included the GLE, GLC, and GLS model lines. The GLE led totals with 17,495 units followed by GLC with sales of 13,674. The GLS rounded out the top three with 6,786 units. Year-to-date, MBUSA’s volume leaders are the GLE, GLC, and C-Class with totals of 65,074; 51,805; and 30,815 respectively.
Q4 sales of Mercedes-AMG high-performance models totaled 6,471 units (-41.8%) with 37,855 vehicles sold year-to-date (11.1%).
Separately, Mercedes-Benz Certified Pre-Owned (MBCPO) models recorded sales of 33,098 vehicles during the fourth quarter of 2021, 6.6% versus to Q4 2020. On a year-to-date basis, MBCPO sold 143,423 vehicles, an increase of 13.1% compared to last year.
In 2020, Mercedes-Benz delivered approximately 691,000 compact cars (A-Class, A-Class Saloon, B-Class, CLA Coupé, CLA Shooting Brake, GLA and GLB) worldwide (+3.6%). Sales of SUVs (GLA, GLB, GLC, GLC Coupé, EQC, GLE, GLE Coupé, GLS and G-Class) were about 885,000 vehicles (+12.9%). The GLE (+32.3%) and GLS (+21.1%) in particular enjoyed high customer demand. (According to Best Selling Cars)
I appreciate a good debate, but this one has been decided. The GLE is Mercedes' best selling SUV, and 2021 sales are up 11% (in the US) over 2020 sales. Moreover, 2020 sales of the GLE (globally) were up 32% over 2019. The majority of GLE sales are 350s. Until that changes, Mercedes isn't changing anything.
Last edited by TexAg91; 01-11-2022 at 06:44 PM.
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Mercedes has improved the base GLE (V167) dramatically over the W166. The chassis is in another league (thank goodness!) and the engine finally has enough power to move the car with authority. The published HP / TQ numbers don't tell how much the performance has increased.
The power delivery of the engine, coupled with a couple more gears, is particularly well sorted and brings the car to life.
In fact, if you spend any time driving them and comparing their performance, the 3.5 V6 was inadequate for the car, where the "four banger" finally gives the GLE enough power that you aren't disappointed every time you press the gas pedal. Yes, I've spent a lot of miles (thousands each) in the old 350, as well as the new 350, 450, and AMG versions.
Those who blindly follow the (obsolete) "There's no replacement for displacement" mantra, better not drive the new GLE 350. They'll have to eat crow, but they will probably not do it publicly. Another example - comparing the old 6.3L V8 with the new 4.0L, where the new engine just performs better.
Both the V167 chassis and new engine lineup (all of them) are miles ahead of the old ones, in performance as well as economy.
Saying that "Entry level GLE customers are getting less with V167 than they did with W166" is really an incorrect statement. They are getting a lot more, with a more modern, higher performance engine as well as a better chassis.
The power delivery of the engine, coupled with a couple more gears, is particularly well sorted and brings the car to life.
In fact, if you spend any time driving them and comparing their performance, the 3.5 V6 was inadequate for the car, where the "four banger" finally gives the GLE enough power that you aren't disappointed every time you press the gas pedal. Yes, I've spent a lot of miles (thousands each) in the old 350, as well as the new 350, 450, and AMG versions.
Those who blindly follow the (obsolete) "There's no replacement for displacement" mantra, better not drive the new GLE 350. They'll have to eat crow, but they will probably not do it publicly. Another example - comparing the old 6.3L V8 with the new 4.0L, where the new engine just performs better.
Both the V167 chassis and new engine lineup (all of them) are miles ahead of the old ones, in performance as well as economy.
Saying that "Entry level GLE customers are getting less with V167 than they did with W166" is really an incorrect statement. They are getting a lot more, with a more modern, higher performance engine as well as a better chassis.
Congrats to MB on the record GLE sales. Too early to know if the 4 banger has the same piston cracking problem of its predecessor, or what the longer term reliability is of the 48V system and battery will be.
Until then caveat emptor in excelsis.
I have high hopes for the inline 6. Physics and history are working in its favor. If the 450 had a no-48V option it would be on my next up list. As it is, other brands have bumped MB to the bottom.
Last edited by chassis; 01-11-2022 at 08:15 PM.
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#45
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Thanks @mikapen . The 4 banger is rough and sounds like it is working harder than the prior base engine. Less horsepower is, well, less horsepower. It is what it is.
Congrats to MB on the record GLE sales. Too early to know if the 4 banger has the same piston cracking problem of its predecessor, or what the longer term reliability is of the 48V system and battery will be.
Until then caveat emptor in excelsis.
I have high hopes for the inline 6. Physics and history are working in its favor. If the 450 had a no-48V option it would be on my next up list. As it is, other brands have bumped MB to the bottom.
Congrats to MB on the record GLE sales. Too early to know if the 4 banger has the same piston cracking problem of its predecessor, or what the longer term reliability is of the 48V system and battery will be.
Until then caveat emptor in excelsis.
I have high hopes for the inline 6. Physics and history are working in its favor. If the 450 had a no-48V option it would be on my next up list. As it is, other brands have bumped MB to the bottom.
Last edited by shotgun_banjo; 02-06-2022 at 12:01 AM.
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2020 GLE 450; 2023 BMW M2 Coupe
I'm in a dilemma right now which one to get. 4 or 6. Tested the 4 and it is surprisingly good but it just makes noise and not sure how it will pull with a full load. The vehicle I am looking at with a 6 is a brand new 2021 (last batch that just got delivered 1 week ago) vs a 2022 4 banger with more options. Hard to decide actually as I have not tested the 6 yet (maybe on Monday).
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I'm in a dilemma right now which one to get. 4 or 6. Tested the 4 and it is surprisingly good but it just makes noise and not sure how it will pull with a full load. The vehicle I am looking at with a 6 is a brand new 2021 (last batch that just got delivered 1 week ago) vs a 2022 4 banger with more options. Hard to decide actually as I have not tested the 6 yet (maybe on Monday).
#48
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If you want a better sounding engine and pulls more effortlessly at high speeds like 75 miles per hr and above or when passing (if it is legal in your country of course) the inline 6 is the better option. You get smoother start/stop as engine turns off before your vehicle slows to a stop, no traditional starter noise as the vehicle fires right up and smoother engine over all when driving.
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I actually turned off the start/stop after stopping at 3 intersections. It just made it feel awkward. One thing that I will have to live with if I get the i6 is a potential dead truck and tow to the service center for battery replacement. I will be keeping the truck for +7 years so I guess I should start putting $3 on a piggy bank to save for that eventful moment.
That being said, I really hope that no one that currently has a GLE 350 or is a future owner has to deal with this piston cracking or currently has a GLE 450 or is a future owner deal with this annoying 48V battery issue.
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To make things complicated, Mercedes decides to come up with a M254 for the new C-Class (W206 C 300) and then throw a mild-hybrid system in it. I don't understand why they don't just use the M264 instead. Did they make some additional changes as they are uncertain if the M264 suffers from the defect of the M274 (or I am hoping it is for a different reason).
Another thing to note is, outside of North America, the E 350 (W213) facelift uses a M264 with a 48V mild hybrid system and not a M254. The E 350 in North America uses the same engine without the 48V mild system.
Another thing to note is, outside of North America, the E 350 (W213) facelift uses a M264 with a 48V mild hybrid system and not a M254. The E 350 in North America uses the same engine without the 48V mild system.
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