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Has anyone heard or read if Mercedes is bringing out any hybrids in GLE’s in the next few years or do you think it will be straight 100 % electric?
Toban
Has anyone heard or read if Mercedes is bringing out any hybrids in GLE’s in the next few years or do you think it will be straight 100 % electric?
Toban
I assume you know the GLE580, GLE53 and GLE450 are mild hybrids with the "EQ Boost" operating at 48 volts to supply "up to 21 hp and 184 lb-ft at certain rpm, allow gas-free coasting, and recapture energy during deceleration."
I am a bit confused about the actual configuration of these engine setups because MBs vehicle description pages are unclear. I have the "53" setup in my '19 CLS53 which has the integrated flywheel/motor/generator/starter shown in the 1st photo below. This is also shown on MB's website for the GLE450 but not for the GLE53 nor GLE580 (which I have on order) nor on the current CLS53 page. On the vehicle design pages on mbusa.com for the GLEs the 2nd and 3rd photos are shown. So I am not sure if the current model year 450 and 53 setups include the flywheel unit.
I assume you know the GLE580, GLE53 and GLE450 are mild hybrids with the "EQ Boost" operating at 48 volts to supply "up to 21 hp and 184 lb-ft at certain rpm, allow gas-free coasting, and recapture energy during deceleration."
I am a bit confused about the actual configuration of these engine setups because MBs vehicle description pages are unclear. I have the "53" setup in my CLS53 which has the integrated flywheel/motor/generator/starter shown in the 1st photo below. This is also shown on MB's website for the GLE450 but not for the GLE53 nor GLE580 (which I have on order) nor on the current CLS53 page. On the vehicle design pages on mbusa.com for the GLEs the 2nd and 3rd photos are shown. So I am not sure if the 450 and 53 setups include the flywheel unit.
Go to the Online Configurator to the GLE Model you are interested in the details & select “Key Features”…it will show the EQ Boost & ISG. All GLE’s, GLS except for the GLE350 have the EQB-ISG.
OP was questioning about a Plug in Hybrid but didn’t make that clear.
All GLE’s, GLS except for the GLE350 have the EQB-ISG.
Do you mean the flywheel ISG? Or maybe it is the flywheel "ISMG" to include "M" for "Motor." Mercedes called the photo below the "ISG" on the current GLE pages. It is interesting that the flywheel ISG (or ISMG) is not shown for all the EQ Boost models. I thought perhaps the new models only used the starter/generator that is shown in this photo which seems to be the focus of the promo for this setup. And why, if all the models include the flywheel ISG (or ISMG), does Mercedes show this in the photo as the starter generator and not the flywheel unit? Does it add 21hp and torque? Probably just poor coordination of the sales staff with the engineering staff.
Do you mean the flywheel ISG? Or maybe it is the flywheel "ISMG" to include "M" for "Motor." Mercedes called the photo below the "ISG" on the current GLE pages. It is interesting that the flywheel ISG (or ISMG) is not shown for all the EQ Boost models. I thought perhaps the new models only used the starter/generator that is shown in this photo which seems to be the focus of the promo for this setup. And why, if all the models include the flywheel ISG (or ISMG), does Mercedes show this in the photo as the starter generator and not the flywheel unit? Does it add 21hp and torque? Probably just poor coordination of the sales staff with the engineering staff.
There is no Flywheel with the ISG & only one configuration. Some pictures are inclusive others aren’t.
There is no Flywheel with the ISG & only one configuration. Some pictures are inclusive others aren’t.
Hmm. I know that on my CLS53 the traditional flywheel is replaced by the flywheel/motor/starter/generator that is pictured below. In this photo, I do see at the front of the engine what seems to be the small ISG that is shown in the current MB descriptions. Although this small unit might serve as a starter/motor I don't believe that this small unit can supply 21hp and 186lb-ft of torque. All of these 48 volt mild hybrid configurations must have the flywheel unit, surely.
Here is a link to a very detailed description of the M256 engine which is the heart of the "53" configuration:
It refers to the ISG as follows: "The current comes from a motor/generator -- Mercedes calls it an Integrated Starter Generator (ISG) -- packaged in the bell housing between the engine and transmission. Its location smack in the middle of the driveline has value in itself."
Hmm. I know that on my CLS53 the traditional flywheel is replaced by the flywheel/motor/starter/generator that is pictured below. In this photo, I do see at the front of the engine what seems to be the small ISG that is shown in the current MB descriptions. Although this small unit might serve as a starter/motor I don't believe that this small unit can supply 21hp and 186lb-ft of torque. All of these 48 volt mild hybrid configurations must have the flywheel unit, surely.
Here is a link to a very detailed description of the M256 engine which is the heart of the "53" configuration:
It refers to the ISG as follows: "The current comes from a motor/generator -- Mercedes calls it an Integrated Starter Generator (ISG) -- packaged in the bell housing between the engine and transmission. Its location smack in the middle of the driveline has value in itself."
You might go to YouTube and do a search…there are lots of videos from a couple of years ago. Here’s one definition….
Integrated Starter Generator
Source: Continental Automotive
The Integrated Starter Generator (ISG) replaces the conventional starter, generator and flywheel of the engine and provides an auxiliary function as a convenient automatic vehicle start-stop system for further improved fuel efficiency
Continental Automotiventegrated Starter Generator (ISG) replaces the conventional starter, generator and flywheel of the engine and provides an auxiliary function as a convenient automatic vehicle start-stop system for further improved fuel efficiency. The system switches off the combustion engine at zero load – such as when standing at a traffic light - and automatically restarts it in less than one hundred milliseconds when the gas pedal is pressed. The pulse-start technology accelerates the combustion engine to the required cranking speed (idle speed) and only then initiates the combustion process for instant ignition, a feature that helps reduce both fuel consumption and emissions. ISG also optimizes the use of electric energy, further reducing fuel consumption and emissions.The system's extremely compact dimensions allow it to be placed directly on the crankshaft between the engine and the transmission. High electric power output, even at low speeds, enhances the performance of comfort and convenience features. These include the air conditioner, seat heater or rear-window defroster.
You might go to YouTube and do a search…there are lots of videos from a couple of years ago. Here’s one definition….
Integrated Starter Generator[size=13px]
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Thank you. I am very familiar with the ISG and the M256 engine in my CLS53. It definitely includes a flywheel unit like you reference.
I just don't understand why MB in the Key Features section of vehicle description pages show the image below and refer to it as the "EQ Boost Integrated Starter-Generator." Given that the 48 volt mild hybrid system incorporates the flywheel starter/motor/generator like the Continental one that you reference, why would they not show it instead? They do show it for the GLE450. What function does the unit shown below serve if the flywheel ISG is a starter? (BTW -- I believe the Mercedes flywheel ISG is built by Mitsubishi.)
We are off topic from your question about which vehicle has EQ Boost. Not to argue semantics but when the ISG was introduced it reportedly replaced the Flywheel and Starter with the compact ISG unit. It also allows the vehicle to free wheel in certain conditions with the engine off.
My memory could be failing me but no flywheel was emphasized at intro. Maybe a piece integrated in the unit is a flywheel like component but I don’t see one.
The Integrated Starter Generator (ISG) replaces the conventional starter, generator and flywheel of the engine and provides an auxiliary function as a convenient automatic vehicle start-stop system for further improved fuel efficiency
OK I agree we are off topic here and I will cease and desist. The flywheel ISG is still shown on the GLE450 Features. Your GLE53 surely incorporates the flywheel ISG. I hope that the GLE580 that I've ordered has it also but it is not pictured for the GLE580 or GLE53. The image in my previous post is shown as the ISG. I assume and hope that this is just an oversight by those who put the Key Feature pages together. I still don't know what function is served by the small unit at the front of the engine and I find it hard to believe that it can supply all of the advertised torque.
Perhaps the small unit is only starter/generator while the flywheel unit is the motor that can supply torque to the drivetrain.
OK I agree we are off topic here and I will cease and desist. The flywheel ISG is still shown on the GLE450 Features. Your GLE53 surely incorporates the flywheel ISG. I hope that the GLE580 that I've ordered has it also but it is not pictured for the GLE580 or GLE53. The image in my previous post is shown as the ISG. I assume and hope that this is just an oversight by those who put the Key Feature pages together. I still don't know what function is served by the small unit at the front of the engine and I find it hard to believe that it can supply all of the advertised torque.
Perhaps the small unit is only starter/generator while the flywheel unit is the motor that can supply torque to the drivetrain.
I doubt that Mitsubishi makes the ISG...a Japanese company would be very unusual. It’s probably Continental AG…the most likely or possibly Bosch, they are two German Companies that Mercedes has relationships with.
OK I agree we are off topic here and I will cease and desist. The flywheel ISG is still shown on the GLE450 Features. Your GLE53 surely incorporates the flywheel ISG. I hope that the GLE580 that I've ordered has it also but it is not pictured for the GLE580 or GLE53. The image in my previous post is shown as the ISG. I assume and hope that this is just an oversight by those who put the Key Feature pages together. I still don't know what function is served by the small unit at the front of the engine and I find it hard to believe that it can supply all of the advertised torque.
Perhaps the small unit is only starter/generator while the flywheel unit is the motor that can supply torque to the drivetrain.
Just to add to the confusion, M-B is also introducing a "BSG," a Belt-driven Starter-Generator. It's more hybrid, with a much larger 48v battery driving it, and more power.
Not to go too far afield, certain AMG models will apparently have both the ISG and BSG - the new version GLE43 should be a 4 cyl with ISG and the 53 will be a 4 cyl with both ISG and BSG. The 73 may be a V8 with both.
So perhaps that picture you posted earlier, with the mystery unit at the front of the engine, shows the BSG. I can't tell if that rendering is a 4 or a 6, but it DOES show the ISG. Perhaps it's the yet-to-be introduced GLE43?
And for clarification, your using the acronym ISMG would probably be an incorrect nomenclature, since the "M" and the "G" are the same - "ISG" would be the accepted nomenclature. There are specific terms in the World's Hybrid nomenclature. https://x-engineer.org/automotive-en...architectures/
Just to add to the confusion, M-B is also introducing a "BSG," a Belt-driven Starter-Generator. It's more hybrid, with a much larger 48v battery driving it, and more power.
Not to go too far afield, certain AMG models will apparently have both the ISG and BSG - the new version GLE43 should be a 4 cyl with ISG and the 53 will be a 4 cyl with both ISG and BSG. The 73 may be a V8 with both.
Thanks for the additional info. Based on the photos and description that are in the "Features" section of the Vehicle section of mbusa.com, I think you are right. The photos show the BSG for sure.
It seems to me that the BSG and the flywheel ISG are both used on the GLE450, GLE53 and GLE580. Maybe. The flywheel ISG is likely 'cause I still have trouble believing that a belt driven BSG at the front of the engine can supply the advertised torque to the drivetrain -- start the engine and charge the battery, OK, but not enhance the HP and torque to the wheels. The "Features" page for the GLE450 shows the flywheel unit but it is not shown for the 53 and 580.
The link that you reference says that one disadvantage of the BSG is "Limited torque capacity due to belt drive."
One of the packaging advantages of the straight 3.0 Six, is that the auxiliary pulleys (Air conditioning, water pump) are removed from the nose of the engine, making it shorter. I don't know how they would add a BSG belt to the "no pulley" nose.
One of the packaging advantages of the straight 3.0 Six, is that the auxiliary pulleys (Air conditioning, water pump) are removed from the nose of the engine, making it shorter. I don't know how they would add a BSG belt to the "no pulley" nose.
I know, but they certainly show what appears to be one. Check out this photo which is taken directly from the GLE53 Vehicle Features page along with the description...
"EQ Boost Integrated Starter-GeneratorElectrifying the inline-6 gasoline engine is an innovative Integrated Starter-Generator. It teams with a 48-volt lithium-ion battery, plus a power supply for formerly belt-driven components like the water pump and air-conditioning compressor. These advancements help reduce weight and enhance underhood packaging. In addition, EQ Boost can generate additional, gas-free power and torque for immediate response."
This is why it is confusing. Mixed messages and pictures in the "Features" section. The GLE450 page shows both this and the flywheel unit.
And really? A rubber toothed belt to supply all that torque? That sure sounds like a weak link.
I've seen what happens when a few teeth on a rubber belt wear prematurely -- valves his pistons on my Fiat X1/9. Will I have a rubber belt driving my starter on the GLE580 that I've ordered? Give me the setup that is on my CLS53 -- no rubber belts please.
I'm going to try to start a new thread in a more general forum to seek clarification on this configuration.
OK here you go...This is from the Vehicle Features photos for the in-line 6-cylinder E450 that clearly shows a belt....This is different from the unit shown on the front of the engine in other photos.
I started a new thread on this subject on the Tech Talk forum here:
I know, but they certainly show what appears to be one. Check out this photo which is taken directly from the GLE53 Vehicle Features page along with the description...
"EQ Boost Integrated Starter-GeneratorElectrifying the inline-6 gasoline engine is an innovative Integrated Starter-Generator. It teams with a 48-volt lithium-ion battery, plus a power supply for formerly belt-driven components like the water pump and air-conditioning compressor. These advancements help reduce weight and enhance underhood packaging. In addition, EQ Boost can generate additional, gas-free power and torque for immediate response."
This is why it is confusing. Mixed messages and pictures in the "Features" section. The GLE450 page shows both this and the flywheel unit.
Going by pictures in the Online Configurator may be a mistake…it’s often inaccurate. The M256 engine has no pulleys-everything is electric. The right front of the engine has the AC compressor that is 48 volt powered & on the left front is the Coolant pump…also 48 volt electric. The GLE 53 also has an electric 48 volt Compressor/Turbo Boost device toward the rear.
The ISG is the device between the engine and transmission. It provides the charging and the EQ Boost. If you would take a look at an older YouTube Video done by Mercedes there were sone with explanations…I might find you one if I get some time later. I looked at a newer one recently that showed a quick parts assembly pic…didn’t see a flywheel.
OK here you go...This is from the Vehicle Features photos for the in-line 6-cylinder E450 that clearly shows a belt....This is different from the unit shown on the front of the engine in other photos.
I started a new thread on this subject on the Tech Talk forum here:
That's clearly a picture of a four cylinder engine. Notice the four "fake" intake runners atop the engine cover. My GLE53 has six fake runners on top.
So it's a four, which explains the belt-driven alternator and what looks like an A/C compressor at the bottom.
That's clearly a picture of a four cylinder engine. Notice the four "fake" intake runners atop the engine cover. My GLE53 has six fake runners on top.
So it's a four, which explains the belt-driven alternator and what looks like an A/C compressor at the bottom.
OK Thank you. That helps. It's interesting that MB would show this photo for the E450 along with this dialogue:
"EQ Boost Integrated Starter-GeneratorElectrifying the inline-6 gasoline engine is an innovative Integrated Starter-Generator. It teams with a 48-volt lithium-ion battery and power supply for formerly belt-driven components like the water pump and air-conditioning compressor, reducing weight and enhancing underhood packaging. In addition, EQ Boost can generate additional, gas-free power and torque for immediate response."
Why would they show this 4-cyl engine while mentioning the inline-6? As I suggested earlier --- bad coordination between the sales promo and engineering staffs.
I'd still like to know what the configuration of the 580 engine is. Does it have a flywheel unit like our CLS53s, whatever one may call it and what purpose does it serve -- only a motor function? Or does the 580 only have that small "starter/generator" at the front of the engine as shown in some of the previous photos and is it belt driven? Even if it is not belt driven, why have that is there is a flywheel/motor/starter/generator as in our CLS53s?
Perhaps I'll get a clear answer from the Tech forum.
07-27-2021, 12:20 PM
