Turbo lag on 350 vs 450
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X214
- Why did Mercedes-Benz choose to mate their PHEV 450e with a 4-cylinder instead of an inline-6? Is it price? They would probably have to charge $5-10k more to justify the added cost. Maybe they did a market study and found that potential owners don't care about 0-60 times and instead just want to reduce their gas and purchase costs?
Does AI have enough data to estimate the average MSRP of a GLE350 that is available for sale in the US ? I bet that's at or above the MSRP of a base GLE450. Of course most GLE450s get jacked up to even higher (with all kinds of unnecessary add-ons), but that's a separate aspect.
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'21 AMG53 wDPP & ARC, 19 GLC300 - Former-03 C240,2 ML BlueTecs,20 GLE450 E-ABC,15 Cayenne D,17 Macan
You are repeatedly talking about the latest WRXs. I am talking about the 22 year old WRX from 2001/2002, which weighed 3085 lbs and came with a 227HP Turbo 2.0L boxer engine (similar displacement to the 2.0L Turbo in the HUGE GLE350 of 2025).
Those sport seats in the 2001/2002 WRX (essentially Japanese spec sport-seats) disappeared in 2003 and no Subaru since, has gotten it back. No iteration of the higher performance WRX STI that ever appeared in the US, has gotten a decent sport seat (other market STIs get full Recaro seats as an option, while the US market gets a weak partial Recaro). So if you go examine the current WRX seats, you will no longer find what I am talking about.
The point however, is NOT about the WRX. The point is about the 5000+lbs GLE, with a similar 2.0L Turbo 4-cylinder that the 3085lbs WRX had 2 DECADES back. Does the point now make sense ?
Either way, my last post on this topic. The point has been repeated ad nauseum.
Those sport seats in the 2001/2002 WRX (essentially Japanese spec sport-seats) disappeared in 2003 and no Subaru since, has gotten it back. No iteration of the higher performance WRX STI that ever appeared in the US, has gotten a decent sport seat (other market STIs get full Recaro seats as an option, while the US market gets a weak partial Recaro). So if you go examine the current WRX seats, you will no longer find what I am talking about.
The point however, is NOT about the WRX. The point is about the 5000+lbs GLE, with a similar 2.0L Turbo 4-cylinder that the 3085lbs WRX had 2 DECADES back. Does the point now make sense ?
Either way, my last post on this topic. The point has been repeated ad nauseum.
And thank you for relenting.
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GLE 580
The fact of the matter is, most GLE350s available for sale, already have a bunch of useless add-ons, that take the price well above that of a base GLE450. Including adding on those 315mm wide rear tires on 21" rims, that slow it down even further. So the base price, even though an interesting datapoint, does not capture the true picture of the sales landscape.
Does AI have enough data to estimate the average MSRP of a GLE350 that is available for sale in the US ? I bet that's at or above the MSRP of a base GLE450. Of course most GLE450s get jacked up to even higher (with all kinds of unnecessary add-ons), but that's a separate aspect.
Does AI have enough data to estimate the average MSRP of a GLE350 that is available for sale in the US ? I bet that's at or above the MSRP of a base GLE450. Of course most GLE450s get jacked up to even higher (with all kinds of unnecessary add-ons), but that's a separate aspect.
I would assume that it's almost impossible to find any GLE/X5 variant to have no options. Manufacturers want to sell options because each tick box gives them an additional margin.
Last edited by wildta; Dec 9, 2024 at 02:48 PM.
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Crazy that people would consider buying those, than just pay a few 1000 more and just go with the overall better GLE450. Better engine, FAR better AWD system etc., in the GLE450 vs the GLE350, makes the choice a no-brainer for me personally.
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2021 c300 Cab. Arrived 7/28/21 . 24 GLE 450e.
The fact of the matter is, most GLE350s available for sale, already have a bunch of useless add-ons, that take the price well above that of a base GLE450. Including adding on those 315mm wide rear tires on 21" rims, that slow it down even further. So the base price, even though an interesting datapoint, does not capture the true picture of the sales landscape.
.
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I never took Physics but, how does better traction add up to being slower?
Last edited by Elvisfan0108; Dec 9, 2024 at 04:04 PM.
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'21 AMG53 wDPP & ARC, 19 GLC300 - Former-03 C240,2 ML BlueTecs,20 GLE450 E-ABC,15 Cayenne D,17 Macan
Yes, most GLE350s that I saw, were well above 72-73K. Some even approaching 80K. Very, very few of them under 70K. Maybe this is a regional thing, and other regions across the US have GLE350 options closer to the base price.
Crazy that people would consider buying those, than just pay a few 1000 more and just go with the overall better GLE450. Better engine, FAR better AWD system etc., in the GLE450 vs the GLE350, makes the choice a no-brainer for me personally.
Crazy that people would consider buying those, than just pay a few 1000 more and just go with the overall better GLE450. Better engine, FAR better AWD system etc., in the GLE450 vs the GLE350, makes the choice a no-brainer for me personally.
AKA a lot more.
I think a 450 is worth it, but it's a nice savings if a 350 suits your needs. It's a popular model.
Some might call it a wise choice. Why spend the money for something you don't need?
Last edited by mikapen; Dec 9, 2024 at 04:01 PM.
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GLE 580
Exactly. If you ticked every box on the 450, the price can balloon to $105k!
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2021 GLS580 | 2011 ML350 BlueTec | 2009 Pontiac G8 GXP
I think he's comparing the GLE350 + "useless options" to the base GLE450. While I would certainly spend my hard earned $$$ on a 450 or 580 plenty of people drive vehicles with < 200HP and 0-60 times in the 9 - 10 second range. To that group, a nice luxury SUV with a 0-60 time of 7 seconds will seem powerful, thus the GLE350. There are also plenty of people that shop for a vehicle on the shiny surface bits and price tag.
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More traction from wider tires/wheels = more grip, higher overall weight, and thus higher rolling resistance (everything else being equal). The last thing you need in a power constrained heavy vehicle, is more rolling resistance. Even the GLE450 does not need more than its 275mm wide tires, based on the power it has (375HP etc). The GLE63S can certainly benefit from the 325mm wide tires and the AWD, and it will use every bit of the grip afforded by the wider tire, to not be overpowered by the 600+HP that its engine outputs.
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I think he's comparing the GLE350 + "useless options" to the base GLE450. While I would certainly spend my hard earned $$$ on a 450 or 580 plenty of people drive vehicles with < 200HP and 0-60 times in the 9 - 10 second range. To that group, a nice luxury SUV with a 0-60 time of 7 seconds will seem powerful, thus the GLE350. There are also plenty of people that shop for a vehicle on the shiny surface bits and price tag.
Last edited by wildta; Dec 9, 2024 at 05:16 PM.
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- To me, a base GLE350 makes total sense, due to the price savings that come with it, especially for someone who understands the limitations of what they are buying.
- A base 450 makes total sense, and is a perfect Goldilocks option within the GLE line-up, where the price, performance and features perfectly align.
- A GLE350 that's priced similar to a base 450, due to having a bunch of expensive optional add-ons, make no sense to me. The typical GLE350 that I see being driven around.
- A 450 optioned out to 105K (or even 90K and beyond), makes zero sense to me.
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X214
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GLE 580
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Yes, in a "power constrained heavy vehicle", the last thing the small, struggling engine needs, is MORE grip. Wider tires = more grip.
Conversely, more grip is needed by a vehicle where the power being generated, is large enough to overcome the grip afforded by the tires. You need MORE grip in this case, typically with wider, grippier tires.
Conversely, more grip is needed by a vehicle where the power being generated, is large enough to overcome the grip afforded by the tires. You need MORE grip in this case, typically with wider, grippier tires.
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Yes, in a "power constrained heavy vehicle", the last thing the small, struggling engine needs, is MORE grip. Wider tires = more grip.
Conversely, more grip is needed by a vehicle where the power being generated, is large enough to overcome the grip afforded by the tires. You need MORE grip in this case, typically with wider, grippier tires.
Conversely, more grip is needed by a vehicle where the power being generated, is large enough to overcome the grip afforded by the tires. You need MORE grip in this case, typically with wider, grippier tires.
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Yes, in a "power constrained heavy vehicle", the last thing the small, struggling engine needs, is MORE grip. Wider tires = more grip.
Conversely, more grip is needed by a vehicle where the power being generated, is large enough to overcome the grip afforded by the tires. You need MORE grip in this case, typically with wider, grippier tires.
Conversely, more grip is needed by a vehicle where the power being generated, is large enough to overcome the grip afforded by the tires. You need MORE grip in this case, typically with wider, grippier tires.
And the wheels and tires are options, not required. It's nice that they are available.
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You are on the right track.
- To me, a base GLE350 makes total sense, due to the price savings that come with it, especially for someone who understands the limitations of what they are buying.
- A base 450 makes total sense, and is a perfect Goldilocks option within the GLE line-up, where the price, performance and features perfectly align.
- A GLE350 that's priced similar to a base 450, due to having a bunch of expensive optional add-ons, make no sense to me. The typical GLE350 that I see being driven around.
- A 450 optioned out to 105K (or even 90K and beyond), makes zero sense to me.
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I'm not going to pretend to know the full mechanics that come to play in this scenario except for the fact that wider tires provide a larger contact patch. I don't have a 350 and I have never received a 350 loaner. All I know is that if that 4-banger can cause wheel slip, then a little more grip from a wider tire could help it.
A GLE63S, will use every bit of that available contact patch, in its 325mm wide tire, since it is generating a torrent of power, and to get that power to the ground, the tires need to be wider and grippier, so that they can hook up and the vehicle can get going, rather than spinning in place.
"Spinning in place" happens when the vehicle is "tire constrained" (too much power that prevents the available tire-contact-patch from hooking up, or can also be due to the tire itself having low grip due to being worn down etc). In modern vehicles, the traction control system will immediately intervene to sort things out. In a vehicle like the original Dodge Viper, for instance, even the super wide tires it was equipped with, would just spin uncontrollably, due to the massive power/torque from its V10 engine, coupled with lack of traction control.
The GLE350 is certainly not "tire constrained", even with the standard 255mm tires on 19" wheels.
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2021 c300 Cab. Arrived 7/28/21 . 24 GLE 450e.
Yes, in a "power constrained heavy vehicle", the last thing the small, struggling engine needs, is MORE grip. Wider tires = more grip.
Conversely, more grip is needed by a vehicle where the power being generated, is large enough to overcome the grip afforded by the tires. You need MORE grip in this case, typically with wider, grippier tires.
Conversely, more grip is needed by a vehicle where the power being generated, is large enough to overcome the grip afforded by the tires. You need MORE grip in this case, typically with wider, grippier tires.
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2021 GLS580 | 2011 ML350 BlueTec | 2009 Pontiac G8 GXP
Regarding 20" square wheel/tire vs 21"-23" staggered setup, there is more contact patch and slightly more rolling resistance with the wider tires, but the larger impact comes simply from the mass. With the larger wheels, there is more spinning mass and as such it will take more time and power to get that mass up to speed and more time/brakes to get it to slow down. When people discuss wheel size impacting performance, this is the primary consideration. If you're at the edge of traction all the time, a wider wheel/tire may improve performance, but there will still likely be a weight penalty. The other performance impact of a larger wheel/tire package is the reduced sidewall. Less sidewall will prevent the wheel from traveling side to side across the tire lessening the time between steering inputs and actual forces transferring to the road. Again, there will be a weight penalty for this improved cornering ability so one must consider that trade off. Back to the GLE, since most people are not on the edge of traction or trying to improve cornering response the only thing a larger/wider wheel & tire combination does is make the car look better and add unsprung rotating mass. This is the worst kind of weight to add with regards to acceleration/deceleration performance.
Agreed. "Useless" is subjective even with data. One person's useless thing is another person's must have item.
Agreed. "Useless" is subjective even with data. One person's useless thing is another person's must have item.
Last edited by jkaetz; Dec 9, 2024 at 07:48 PM.
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Regarding 20" square wheel/tire vs 21"-23" staggered setup, there is more contact patch and slightly more rolling resistance with the wider tires, but the larger impact comes simply from the mass. With the larger wheels, there is more spinning mass and as such it will take more time and power to get that mass up to speed and more time/brakes to get it to slow down. When people discuss wheel size impacting performance, this is the primary consideration. If you're at the edge of traction all the time, a wider wheel/tire may improve performance, but there will still likely be a weight penalty. The other performance impact of a larger wheel/tire package is the reduced sidewall. Less sidewall will prevent the wheel from traveling side to side across the tire lessening the time between steering inputs and actual forces transferring to the road. Again, there will be a weight penalty for this improved cornering ability so one must consider that trade off. Back to the GLE, since most people are not on the edge of traction or trying to improve cornering response the only thing a larger/wider wheel & tire combination does is make the car look better and add unsprung rotating mass. This is the worst kind of weight to add with regards to acceleration/deceleration performance.
Agreed. "Useless" is subjective even with data. One person's useless thing is another person's must have item.
Agreed. "Useless" is subjective even with data. One person's useless thing is another person's must have item.
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'21 AMG53 wDPP & ARC, 19 GLC300 - Former-03 C240,2 ML BlueTecs,20 GLE450 E-ABC,15 Cayenne D,17 Macan
Edit: big staggered tires add Fun to the driving experience. No matter what the horsepower.
Last edited by mikapen; Dec 9, 2024 at 09:43 PM.
