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nc211, the EV costs have to be hurting the brand. Maybe the aluminum battery will turn around the EV losses, that are being subsidized by the rest of the non EV lineup.
You're probably right. Mbenz entered the EV market too late and has spent a lot of money bringing out their EQ full EV models in the last 4-5 years, whereas the baseline/foundational work should have begun 10 years ago or more.
I’d also pick the W223 over the W222 if I am forced to choose one, but I’m unsure if it’s superior in all areas. It’s not as good in some, better in a few, and just as good in most. Also, even though I wouldn’t choose the W222 over the W223 today, I was more enthusiastic about the W222 in its time because it didn’t have the issues discussed above as the W223. That’s why I owned two W222s, pre- and post-LCI, but didn’t feel inclined to own the W223. The core issue is that Mbenz missed the mark with the W223. The problems shouldn’t be in a car like this for owners to chase and fix themselves. It’s also disappointing that Mbenz could have addressed these issues by replacing plastic with more premium materials for minimal 1-3% additional cost…given the S-class heritage they should have done it. It’s clearly bothering many owners, and there are more creaks/rattle threads/complaints about the W223 than any other luxury sedan in the 100-200K range. I hope Mbenz is listening.
In the end it is about the balance between accepting a car’s imperfections and appreciating it, while also acknowledging its inferior quality. I’m doing the same for my GLS. I love it for how it is, but I know it should be better. I’m fine with that because it’s a family car. However, I wouldn’t accept that for my daily or luxury ride. The same way, I loved Tesla S, but I wish they’d offer premium cabin options and less road noise. And it’s interesting that Tesla has less plastic touch surfaces in the Model S than the W223, even though the Model S is more inferior to the S-class all around. But at least they covered those areas with vinyl materials emulating leather. I’d prefer vinyl material around the seats instead of plastic trim all day long.
It’s not superior in every way, but on the balance it’s superior. The superior ride and quietness and the better base audio system alone tip the balance for me. The one area where the 222 was better was in outright interior material and build quality, but really that’s it. What’s weird is the build and finish on the exterior of the 223 is considerably better than the 222. Paint is also much nicer on the 223
Those lower areas of the seats in the W222 were also cheap plastic, the only difference is the design they didn’t develop that creaking.
Closing the doors on my GLS doesn't sound at all like a bank vault. But then I have the soft close option.
They absolutely do not sound like a bank vault, in fact they sound quite cheap. Ours is worse than the 2013 Toyota Highlander with 140k hard family miles that our GLS replaced.
But if you take one of the door panels off, you'd see exactly why, and highlights the reason for this thread in general. Way too much cheap plastic clips in the door panels now, and the clips that hold the panel onto the door are also very flimsy cheap plastic. Each door is held on by just two screws in the armrests of each, with the rest cheaply clipped on to the outer edges along the bottom and the sides, the top section of the door panels do not have clips, but rather a guide piece that slips into a section under the window opening and is not secure. You can literally remove one of these door panels in a few seconds once you remove the two screws in the door handle. They just pop right off into your hands. Don't believe me? Take a butter knife, slide it between the panel and the door and when you feel like you hit something, twist the knife slightly and see how easily the clips pop loose. It's really pretty ridiculous.
Further, the clips that do hold the door, have a cheap foam ring that disintegrates once you remove the door. They're about the size and thickness of a penny, and tear like a piece of paper. Utterly useless.
I would expect their flagship sedan, the S class to be much better in general, if for anything, bragging rights. But that's comparing apples to oranges here. There is the "Mercedes Benz S", and then there is "Mercedes Benz". It's always been that way for MB. I've come to the conclusion that to assume all MB's are of S Class quality is the marketing trickery that MB has deployed over the decades for all of their cars. In my eyes, the S class might as well be built by a totally different company at this point. The GLS is far from "the S class of SUV's".
You put a 5 year old MB GLS next to a 5 year old Audi Q7, same mileage and usage, and I have 0% doubt the Audi is going to feel more solid.
But again, we do like ours (otherwise it wouldn't be in our garage anymore) and plan on keeping it until it becomes problematic. I know I'm bagging on it a bit here, but it is a very nice SUV in general. There are just some things about it that are disappointing to the point of taking the bloom off the rose for the brand in my opinion for when it comes time to replace it.
Door panels on every vehicle including OLD Mercedes remove with just a few screws, they are designed to be easily removed to service the windows, door latches etc.
I just think we're being a little unaware of the way modern cars in general are designed here. This is an Audi Q7 door panel, as you can see 3 screws, clips and it lifts off that same channel at the top. Thats how every door panel for every car I have ever removed has been, including my Dads old LS400 and LS430 which are widely known as having the best build quality around. Plastic clips easily break on all of them, they are simple to replace.
This is the removal on the GLS, it doesn't seem any different really. The difference in the Q7 and the GLS vs that old W140 is the weight of the panel itself, which as we know weight savings in a modern car for fuel economy is a consideration that didn't exist in the late 1980s when the W140 was designed.
Certainly build quality isn't what it used to be, but I don't think Mercedes is really any different than anybody else here...I don't think anybody assumes that all Mercedes are of S Class quality, but they never have been.
Door panels on every vehicle including OLD Mercedes remove with just a few screws, they are designed to be easily removed to service the windows, door latches etc.
I just think we're being a little unaware of the way modern cars in general are designed here. This is an Audi Q7 door panel, as you can see 3 screws, clips and it lifts off that same channel at the top. Thats how every door panel for every car I have ever removed has been, including my Dads old LS400 and LS430 which are widely known as having the best build quality around. Plastic clips easily break on all of them, they are simple to replace.
This is the removal on the GLS, it doesn't seem any different really. The difference in the Q7 and the GLS vs that old W140 is the weight of the panel itself, which as we know weight savings in a modern car for fuel economy is a consideration that didn't exist in the late 1980s when the W140 was designed.
Certainly build quality isn't what it used to be, but I don't think Mercedes is really any different than anybody else here...I don't think anybody assumes that all Mercedes are of S Class quality, but they never have been.
Yes, we seem to all be in agreement that Mercedes is currently doing what the rest of the industry is doing. The question is: should they?
I used to have higher expectations when I bought my first Mercedes in 2011 that it would somehow set itself apart. It did do that for a while but now not so much.
I'll keep repeating myself til I'm blue in the face: mass market cars are becoming increasingly upscale and luxury cars are choosing to cheapen out while increasing MSRP every year. In terms of exterior/interior quality, seems like they are destined to meet in the middle (biggest differentiator is still the engines offered, of course)!
Yes, we seem to all be in agreement that Mercedes is currently doing what the rest of the industry is doing. The question is: should they?
I used to have higher expectations when I bought my first Mercedes in 2011 that it would somehow set itself apart. It did do that for a while but now not so much.
I'll keep repeating myself til I'm blue in the face: mass market cars are becoming increasingly upscale and luxury cars are choosing to cheapen out while increasing MSRP every year. Seems like they are destined to meet in the middle (biggest differentiator is still the engines offered, of course)!
How much do you want to spend for a Mercedes? Are you willing to spend even more of a premium over something else? MSRPs are not up compared to inflation, as a matter of fact when you adjust for inflation many Mercedes cars are considerably cheaper than they were in the 90s and earlier. Case in point, that W140. A W140 S500 had an MSRP of around $90,000 to start in 1995. Thats $191,000 in 2025 dollars. A 2025 S580 starts at $129,000.
Take it to the GLS, a new 2007 GLS450 started around $55,000. In 2025 thats $86,000. Where does a 2025 GLS450 start? $89k Think about the additional equipment and technology that is in the 2025 vehicle that isn't in the 2007, and remember the original GL had a lot of crappy interior plastics, buttons that the finish wore off of, and a terrible reputation for reliability.
My point is, they are not more expensive and with the additional technology that is in modern cars while holding the line on price, something has to give. Maybe if the GLS started where the S Class starts, at $30,000 more money, they could provide better build quality alongside that...but are you a buyer for the vehicle at that increased cost? I wouldn't be.
The main differentiator between something like a GLS and its mainstream competitors is powertrains, vehicle structure and design, suspension design. If those things don't matter to you then you're wasting your money on a vehicle like this and should just get a Grand Highlander or a Telluride with macpherson strut suspension and FWD layout etc.
We can "think" things should be a certain way but there is a business reality here that we have to accept in order to have reasonable expectations, and our view of how things were is usually not that accurate.
Agreed.
I get a lot of things that are important to me at Mercedes price points.
I want a car to turn, go and stop with no wasted motion. And do Sport Utility things.
So I get sophisticated suspension (my AMG ARC among the best ever), seats that don't collapse at year three, state of the art engines, safety.
Ability to play like a Land Cruiser (had one), have fun at the Track (do that), tow a bunch (do that), nicely thought out User Interface, leather on every touch surface (except lower door pockets), and doors that almost close themselves with a satisfying thunk (precision).
The 167 chassis IMO is best of breed among Euro SUVs at this time.
Waiting for BMW's replacement of their aging models to see if they finally take a leap forward. Q8's, Q7's and Cayenne's also need new chassis - it's time.
I seldom remove my door panels (maybe every 25 to 30 years) but I keep the special tools just in case (a six dollar investment). Just sold a couple 80's cars so maybe I'll donate my trim tools....
Yes, I'm fully aware of how door cards are installed. I've removed more than my fair share in my days. We can deflect here, deflect there, talk about price points, inflation, "old days" and on and on. None of that makes a hill of beans to justify going cheap on core touch points of a product, and in the case of automobiles, that would be touch control items and seat covers. We can add a new one for us now too - the labels and stripes of the shifter and the control stock, along with the start button, all starting to fading / rub away on ours.
To EL's point above...should they? Well, to the long time MB owners, I'd say no. However, we all know nothing is built to last anymore, and that is certainly true with Mercedes Benz as well.
This below is what holds the switch gear in the door panels of the Mercedes GLS. This is also what is used to prevent the door panels from rattling for that legendary Mercedes "bank vault" experience when closing the door. You tell me if that looks like "best or nothing at all", or "s-class of suv's". You tell me if that looks worthy of a $100k price tag. Bet I could take the door panel off a Palisades and find better. Or better yet, I bet I could take the panel off of a Chrysler-era MB and find better. There's just no justifying or denying the fact that, while it works fine and what's $500 for control switch when your oil changes are $700, this should not be up to MB standards if they want to continue with the "best or nothing" image. It just isn't. And that what frustrates me with the brand now. This should have never happened for a Mercedes Benz!! This should've been an easy spot to fix that didn't cost anymore to fix / produce in the design phase. But...then again....windshield wipers shouldn't hop/skip/chatter across the glass like they do. Again, I've had switch "die" before. Got wet and shorted out, gunked up contact points, cables stretch/snap, etc. But I have never, ever, across 20 cars and many brands and vehicle types, had one just fall out, no matter how hard or abused they may have been. Never. Not even back in the day when they were hand cranked.
Cleaned up the garage floor today and found these two parts from when I "MacGyver'd" the switch gear back into the door panel last week. One of the broken plastic clips, and one of the torn sound insulation bushings. As I told my wife (her car), you're never too rich for duct tape... (we aren't rich)...
Personally I just don’t think this is that big a deal. I guess I have never bought into the idea that there is something “special” about a Mercedes above and beyond any other similarly priced car. Stuff breaks sometimes, a lot of it is luck.
“The best or nothing”, “The relentless pursuit of perfection”, “the ultimate driving machine” all just marketing slogans.
These we've given up on. Already fixed them twice before. They just don't last. Nobody ever sits in the 3rd row anymore. We've probably used the 3rd row maybe 10 times in 5 years. First time they broke was the first time someone plugged in their phone. In fact, I'm hopeful this will be our last 3-row in general and downsize a bit for the next car someday.
Personally I just don’t think this is that big a deal. I guess I have never bought into the idea that there is something “special” about a Mercedes above and beyond any other similarly priced car. Stuff breaks sometimes, a lot of it is luck.
“The best or nothing”, “The relentless pursuit of perfection”, “the ultimate driving machine” all just marketing slogans.
I agree, it's not a big deal overall, but it's a disappointment in quality, especially when you pay for "quality". Yes there are many other areas of the GLS that are notably stout, and that's what frustrates me with the brand now. They put gigantic control arms and massive suspension bushings in the GLS....yet the door switches break off? They engineer one of the smoothest 6 cylinder engines and run a 48v motor through the middle of it (plus a turbo)....yet the "indestructible" MBTex seat cover splits open? They create one of the smoothest shifting transmissions ever with perfect gear ratios....unless you want to do a gentle rolling stop? I mean it's like Jekyll & Hyde in the engineering and QC departments here. And that...is why MB isn't top of my list anymore.
I wouldn’t say any brand is at the “top of the list” for me, it’s a case by case thing. I firmly believe that outside of a Range Rover the GLS is the best all around vehicle in its category, downsides and all.
This stuff is not new for Mercedes. Remember the faded trim issues? Like you said MBTex has had splitting issues for a long time. Worn buttons on Chrysler era MBs are so notorious that they sell overlay sticker kits.
That's exactly my point brother..... $100k is not a "bargain shopper" vehicle, therefore certain items should not be designed / assembled as such, especially from the manufacture who is widely known for over engineering and attention to detail. I mean, they spec the inside of the tires with additional sound deadening for crying out loud!
Maybe they've fixed my issues in later production runs. I would hope so. I have, and continue to, give some slack to MB for ours being a first model year run built during Covid. It's far from being a "piece of junk", that's for sure.
I will say that out of all who've had them in our neighborhood and a couple of friends who had one, we're the only ones left with one. They all either returned them and went a different brand (lease), or traded them in for something else. Honestly, most went with American. One cadillac, one Aviator, one Expedition, two Tahoe's, and one X5.
Kind of a different perspective but if not accounting for GDP, I heard Singapore is one of the most expensive country to own a car, the price is triple or quadruple of the USA price of the equivalent S-Class? Will the build quality be the same or different? Is the build quality if the same still justified? I still think the facelift will have much needed improvements, we will see.
I wouldn’t say any brand is at the “top of the list” for me, it’s a case by case thing. I firmly believe that outside of a Range Rover the GLS is the best all around vehicle in its category, downsides and all.
This stuff is not new for Mercedes. Remember the faded trim issues? Like you said MBTex has had splitting issues for a long time. Worn buttons on Chrysler era MBs are so notorious that they sell overlay sticker kits.
Although MB once marketed the GLS as the S Class of SUVs, it is still no S-Class. It does it job well though for what it is.
Personally I just don’t think this is that big a deal. I guess I have never bought into the idea that there is something “special” about a Mercedes above and beyond any other similarly priced car. Stuff breaks sometimes, a lot of it is luck.
“The best or nothing”, “The relentless pursuit of perfection”, “the ultimate driving machine” all just marketing slogans.
Fwiw, I don't see any more mention of "the best or nothing" in MB's recent marketing or MB's official site either they discontinued it or I am blind I think it is the latter.
How much do you want to spend for a Mercedes? Are you willing to spend even more of a premium over something else? MSRPs are not up compared to inflation, as a matter of fact when you adjust for inflation many Mercedes cars are considerably cheaper than they were in the 90s and earlier. Case in point, that W140. A W140 S500 had an MSRP of around $90,000 to start in 1995. Thats $191,000 in 2025 dollars. A 2025 S580 starts at $129,000.
Take it to the GLS, a new 2007 GLS450 started around $55,000. In 2025 thats $86,000. Where does a 2025 GLS450 start? $89k Think about the additional equipment and technology that is in the 2025 vehicle that isn't in the 2007, and remember the original GL had a lot of crappy interior plastics, buttons that the finish wore off of, and a terrible reputation for reliability.
My point is, they are not more expensive and with the additional technology that is in modern cars while holding the line on price, something has to give. Maybe if the GLS started where the S Class starts, at $30,000 more money, they could provide better build quality alongside that...but are you a buyer for the vehicle at that increased cost? I wouldn't be.
The main differentiator between something like a GLS and its mainstream competitors is powertrains, vehicle structure and design, suspension design. If those things don't matter to you then you're wasting your money on a vehicle like this and should just get a Grand Highlander or a Telluride with macpherson strut suspension and FWD layout etc.
We can "think" things should be a certain way but there is a business reality here that we have to accept in order to have reasonable expectations, and our view of how things were is usually not that accurate.
In the case of willing to spend more than that probably will consider ultra luxury brands like Bentley and stuff but I understand those of us who don't want the attention that ultra luxury brands bring. There comes the Maybach, for those who don't want the attention that the Maybach badge brings can always debadge it and you blend in the rest of the S-Class folks. Problem is, does the Maybach have the same build quality problems as the GLS or W223? I would expect given the extra price tag and profit margin, they can have even more sturdy build material, although admittedly not expecting Rolls-Royce or Bentley build quality but at least better and justifiable? I say the new MANUFAKTUR signature program is a good start it improves the car a lot with custom well made materials, for those who don't want to buy a Maybach.
The whole “S Class of” thing is silly. It’s the same issue that they have with the EQS. The interior of the GLS is shared with the GLE which starts at $61,000. It’s not going to be built to the same standard as the S Class which starts at nearly twice the price.
It is also not built in the same country so I understand the labour differences, the S-Class of is MB's marketing but that is just that... marketing. Since you mentioned EQS, I actually don't recall MB ever saying it is the S class of EVs, I think journalist started that idea. Or maybe they did market it as such and I didn't remember or I didn't come across. I do remember they marketed the gls as the S-Class of SUV though. I think it is fair to say the true S class of SUV is the full size Range Rover. https://mbworld.org/forums/s-class-w...e-s-class.html https://mercedes-benz-media.co.uk/releases/1290
This review explains why it is not supposed to be the S class https://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews...ls-vs-s-class/
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