m500

Its seem like you havn't had a good experience with your M3. That's too bad. We have all model of BMW except the M5 and V12s and never had any problem with it except common problems. My service experience with BMW at New Century is been perfect so far until my visit to Thousand Oaks BMW and that's when I decide to swich to MB for a change. I'm still think I should of gone with GS430 or GX470 to get the best service experience. According to most MB owner here at the forum, MB service is degrading at a landslide speed. I hope one Leman doesn't spoil your love for a true performance sedan which BMW is been know for for decade but personal I believe that just implies to the 5s.

m500

On top of that the best part about my BMW experience is that I was able to get a brand new car for repalcement when My brand new 740iL's check engine light came on when I'm on my way home. I drove back and got a swap but had to go thru the whole paper works again which was a bommer.

MikeL

why not have the best of both worlds in my house, we have a 02' w208 CLK55, 03' w209 CLK500, 01' ML500, 00 w202 C230K, 01' BMW S54 M Roadster, and i have a E46 M3 coming in november. i love Mercedes, but i have more fun driving the BMW. and i wish MB would make a manual tranny. for those of you who bash on BMW, have you guys ever driven one(M series)? i love both, i like to take out the MB when i dont feel like driving stick esp in LA traffic, but the BMW gives me the biggest grin while driving.

Pkorkis

You make it sound as if the M5 is dumb b/c of its similarity to the 5-series. Whereas the SL55 is a "work of art"...Correct me if I'm wrong. Is the SL55 not almost IDENTICAL to the SL500? So then according to your reasoning in the beginning of that sentence, wouldn't the SL55's "similarity" to the SL500, technically speaking, make the car look out-dated?

BTW..."dorky Quad Exhaust?" Have you seen the new SL55...and CL55....and E55, and CLK55, and S55, and ML55? They all have Quad Exhausts...but they're not dorky because they're MB Exhausts right? Look, if you don't like BMW, fine, but don't say these ridiculous statements about the ugly cosmetics of a BMW, when they also apply to MB.

For the Record: I LOVE both BMW and MB. I have a 330Ci, my dad has a CL600, my bro a E320, my oldest bro just got rid of his 540i 6 spd. I am not biased at all, I love both car companies and they're cars.

Pkorkis

No...but they can make an engine for a $1,000,000 car...
*cough*McLaren*cough*

FInality

So? Mercedes has the fabulous CLK-GTR and the Clubsport edition.

FYI Honda was originally slated to produce that engine.

SoCalCLK

Re: "You make it sound as if the M5 is dumb b/c of its similarity to the 5-series. Whereas the SL55 is a "work of art"...Correct me if I'm wrong. Is the SL55 not almost IDENTICAL to the SL500? So then according to your reasoning in the beginning of that sentence, wouldn't the SL55's "similarity" to the SL500, technically speaking, make the car look out-dated?

BTW..."dorky Quad Exhaust?" Have you seen the new SL55...and CL55....and E55, and CLK55, and S55, and ML55? They all have Quad Exhausts...but they're not dorky because they're MB Exhausts right? Look, if you don't like BMW, fine, but don't say these ridiculous statements about the ugly cosmetics of a BMW, when they also apply to MB."

First off, the 5-Series Chassis is nearing 8-Years OLD, and the SL500 Chassis is Brand NEW. So your statement of the SL55 making the SL500 look Out-dated is a hipocritical one. How can a car look out-dated when it is the newest thing out there! Your love for BMW has clouded your vision.
Second, the Quad Exhausts on the BMWs ARE DORKY. They look like some plumbing pipes at HOME DEPOT that were welded on to the muffler! On the Contrary, the Quad exhuasts on the AMG models are polished and Stamped "AMG" on each tip. Far exceeding the look and finish on BMW. MB and BMW both have Quad Exhausts on their sports models, only MB has DONE IT Right and BMW has done it wrong. Again.
And yes, I owned an E36 M3 in 1996. The car was Not impressive. A Honda Civic Si handles better.
And as far as your $1MM *Cough*Stammer*Cough*Hack*Hack* engine is concerned. I DO NOT SEE THAT CAR FOR SALE AT THE BMW DEALERSHIP FOR STREET LEGAL USE IN THE U.S.A. Please keep your rebuttals RELEVANT to this Topic.

Pkorkis

Did I ever say I think the SL55 makes the SL500 look old? I said, "So then according to your reasoning in the beginning of that sentence, wouldn't the SL55's "similarity" to the SL500, technically speaking, make the car look out-dated?" I think the SL55 is a beautiful car. As far as the Quad Exhausts go, if you think they're dorky, then that's your personal opinion, but I have never met anyone, including on these forums that have thought the M5 looks dorky and cheesy b/c of its body work and exhausts.
"And yes"? What are you responding to? I never asked whether or not you owned a BMW. I said that I have driven many MB's and BMW's, so no I am not blinded by my love for BMW's. My family owns 4 MB's, and now, 1 BMW, mine. So if anything, I should have a love for MB's over BMW's simply because this is only the third BMW in our family, whereas my brother's E-class is our 7th MB. If my next car is not an M3, I'm hoping it can be a used E55 actually.
Whether or not they sell the car is irrelevant. You claimed that "BMW is not capable of making a $150,000 car that is respectable". I'm saying that they are. I would think that if they were capable of making an engine for the McLaren, then they would have the ability to make a $120,000+ vehicle.

and FInality...
"So? Mercedes has the fabulous CLK-GTR and the Clubsport edition."
I'm not saying, LOOK EVERYONE, BMW MADE THIS ENGINE. I know that MB makes amazing cars like the CLK-GTR, but I was simply replying to SoCalCLK's comment of how BMW in INCAPABLE of making a $150,000 car that is respectable.

SoCal, I'm not here to have an online argument with you, I was just replying to your responses which were 100% biased towards MB, and sometimes just plain absurd.

FrankW

I agree that SoCalCLK's comments are pretty biased towards the MB, but the guy do have a CLk...what can you do?!...

about that comment "BMW can't make a $150k car that is respectable" That was just plain stupid. The Z8 is stickered at $130k and it'll give the SL55 a run for it's money.

a civic Si handle better than a E36 M3? I'd like to see that. Don't bother to say that a modded Si cuz I'm talking about stock form.

McLaren F1 was a street legal car in the states. Not sold by BMW however.

about the exhaust tip that M Gmbh choose, there's nothing wrong with that. It's still a polished aluminum tip. It's not always about the badge.

ardKore

an SL will never have 4 doors

a 5 series will never have two.

why are you guys comparing a roadster to a sedan?

Pkorkis

OMG...I completely forgot about the Z8...haha. Anyways, as far as us comparing the 5 series to an SL55, w're not comparing the two cares, we're simplying comparing the additions of an M5 from a 5 series and the additions on an SL55 from a base SL500.

Ronin37

Its nice to be in the 30-35%

I own a 2003 M5, Highly Moded. It is not the be all and end all, but its got the lot.

As for Mercedes, There is no denying they are one of the most Beautiful cars on the planet. As they get more beautiful, our beloved Beasts get Banglised.

The E39 M5 will go down in history as a classic. Its about to hang up its belt. Its not a fair comparison to compare it to the Latest Benz. Thats not taking away from the Benz. Mercedes have moved the goal posts, most defineately, and for the first time in a very Long time, BMW may not be able to Top it. This has come form a hard core M-Guy.

If the new E60 only has 550Hp, I don't believ that is enough. Especially to overcome its UGLY looks.

I bought the 03 out of grave fears for the E60. The way things are going, it won't be an E60 that keeps my Classic M5 company, it will be either a Benz or a Porsche. Its a sad day indeed when I start thinking this could be my last M.

As far as I'm concerned, there are no excuses. The M should kick the AMG's BUTT. If it doesn't then its not worth having. Things are not looking good for BMW and M.

SoCalCLK

Ronin37, thank you for your candid observations. As an Owner of both a 1996 M3 and 2002 CLK 430, I have been on both sides of the coin. However, I believe BMW hit the nail on the head with the M5 and the E36 M3 was just the beginning.
You are right, the 2000-2003 M5 will go down as a classic. Mercedes has definitely raised the bar in its current AMG offerings (CL55, SL55 and S55 AMG) and created a more comprehensive piece. For BMW M, there are No Excuses. They must be faster and more luxurious than Benz if they are to win this contest.
I am simply stating that with the current AMG cars, Benz is leading.
Like everyone else, I saw the new 5-series and just gagged. If it Ain't Broke, Don't Fix It!! I love my CLK430 and now that I have the Brabus Suspension I can take the corners like I used to in the M3!
Congrats on the car and thanks for the input.

FrankW

Ronin37

thanks for the input as well. I actually had a 2000 328Ci before the C32. I loved that car very much. Would've definitely gone for the M if it wasn't for my want/need for a sleeper sedan along w/ auto/semi-auto.

the current Ms are definitely all great cars especially the M5 which has set so many standards in the mid size sport sedan catagory. The new E55 and the RS6 has just shattered what the M5 set with automatic trans. The M5 still offer more control if you are into manual of course. The next M5 should likely to have the SMG as the only gearbox since nowaday, you find more people demand for it.

Top Gear just recently pitted the E60 530i against the W211 E320. They said and I quote "this time it really comes down to the brand preference". This just say something about the way MB are getting more sporty catching up to what BMW has been putting out for quite some times.

btw, I really don't think the E60 5-series looks that bad. The rear profile looks much meaner than the E39. The only thing I would say is that they could've added some side molding to make the doors look smaller, AND get rid of the i-"fiddle with the control, you"-drive.

Ronin37

Hey SocalCLK,

I agree with everything you have just said.

The Bottom line really is, Mercedes has really raised the Bar this time, and there are No excuses. If BMW don't match it or better it, than crying forced induction just does not cut it in my book.

These cars are daily drivers. So it is a big deal to pull away from the Toll gates and beat everyone to the clear road ahead.

I'm not looking forward to an encounter with a New E55, Until I have finished ALL of my Mods. Stock vs Stock and I wouldn't have a chance. This is what BMW need to rectify and fast.

If the new E60 M5 cannot at least match the Mercedes Benz for straight line performance, than No more M's for me. No Excuses.

An if it just matches it, well why hurry to get one. By the time its out, Mercedes will most probably be ready to raise the bar again.

BlownS420_

Well at least they are both worthy of being posted without people b!tch!n bout it.

FInality

I dont buy the whole wonderful engine theory every car maker has made a spectacular engine one time or the other. GM makes the engine for the Noble, Ford makes a fabulous engine for the Koennsig (or however you spell it), yes the V12 provided to McLaren is great, it is not the be all you can be of engines though.....

I give BMW credit for the Z8, nice car but no where near the 130K asking price they wanted. I suspect if they asked around 75K for it they could have rolled plenty of the production line without even thinking off it.

I have only personally met one person who says they want a Z8 and will pay the asking price (this guy is worth Mega bucks and he still hasn't taken the plunge), most people I talk to about this subject agree that at 70K its a car to die for, however @ 130K its just highway robbery. FYI there is one at my dealership Black with creme I believe thats been there since early 2002, still brand spanking new with no miles on the odo just waiting for a buyer who will pay sticker for it. The priced an Alpina Z8 which is blue at exactly the same price, I wonder which one will get sold first.....

SoCalCLK

Honestly, when one sees the Z8 and the new SL500 Sport, and then the comparative price tags ($130,000 for the BMW and $90,000 for the MBZ) It becomes crystal clear that BMW does not have a clue how to win against Mercedes, and over estimated their brand name.
The Wall Street Journal stated that the SL is the fastest selling car in the USA, in other words out of all the cars in the US, it spends the fewest time on the dealer's lot.
FInality is 100% correct when he says that it is a 70K car. They are asking nearly double, and similar to most of their cars, it is a product that is over-priced for what you get.

FInality

No not everything is overpriced... in fact I think only the Z8 was really overpriced beyond proportion to what it was. I would be happier with the M3 sitting 5 grand lower or at least coming with leather standard....

The last 7 (also in our possesion) was also overpriced for what it was especially with the boring boring interior I like the new 7er though Very nice interior - if you can get over the distracting contrasts on the interior.

FrankW

Noble M12 uses a twin-turbo duratec V6 from Ford.

If the Z8 is not worth the $130k price tag, then SL500 doesn't deserve the nearly $100k price tag let alone that the SL55 is $130k as well. The Z8 was the king of the luxury sports roadster until the SL55 came along with a more powerful engine, period.

btw, Z8 and the SL500 is completely on a different level.

I don't get why do you guys continue to diss the Z8 or any other high end BMW for the matter that you simply don't like BMW or you can't afford'em. Diss'em if you are rolling around in a SL55, if not, then stop running the mouth.

em2023

Video will be posted (hopefully) soon right?

FInality

HARDLY. The Z8 was never the king of roadsters it had a strong engine but not strong enough there are plenty of nice cars out there available at 130K USD its why they sold so few of the cars they knew they where aiming at a long shot producing that car at that price level.

I infact went to House of Cars on Shekh Zayed road (for those that know where that is) I was inquiring about a 1 year old M3 and a 1 year old M5 which I am on the cusp of buying he informed me to take a look at a Z8 they just sold a red Hamann kitted (no engine mods) for $70K it was a 2002 with 10,500 km on it. Thats right an 18 month year old car selling for half price, he also sold a 2000 with 18,000 km for $56,000 3 months ago. He said the value of the car drops tremendously but after that the price is relatively stable.

The SL500 is easily worth the 90K price tag and the SL55 is worth the $113K price tag that is why they sell so well. If they where at the demand level that the Z8 was they would never have sold past the 2000 mark over the past 12 months instead we have seen at least 6000 (back in Jan or Feb) SL55s sold thats well past the ENTIRE production run of the Z8 where production had to be diverted to Alpina to meet sales quotas.

FYI I am quite interested in a 2002 Z8 at 70K and I have told them to contact me when they get their next one in.

FrankW

Z8 is a limited production model planned for production run for 2 years only. BMW has already increase the production for another year to meet the demands. Alpina bought the last remining 500 unit as a joint venture with BMW North America. Only few Alpina Z8 is sold in Europe because it's BMW North America that ordered the car from Alpina.

SL-class on the other hand is a mass production product, who knows how long will they sell the car this time. Last time they sold the previous generation for 13 years. It's cheaper to produce because it's a mass production product.

If they selling for that cheap at your country, they must've been in some sort of accident or the car is modded like you have suggested for the for example you got. A Z8 that has accident is selling around $60k on Cars.com right now. Another one of the same year with no accident is selling for $100k. The guy who was trying to sell you the car must missed telling you something

If the Z8 wasn't the king of luxury roadster during it's run past couple years, then which car was? keep in mind that I'm talking about Luxury Roadster.

FInality

No the car has a clean title like I said they had two more at 55K. which where either a 2k1 or 2k completely stock both had about 18K km on them (11K miles)

The Z8 was originally planned to be produced somewhere between 5000 and 9000 units over a 3 year period production was never extended past that. They missed the sales target and that is why so many units where redirected towards Alpina.

Ask any other member in Dubai to come to the showroom and ask for David. There are other cars that are also selling extremely cheap like a Lambo Diablo which he told me can be had very cheap as well. I wouldn't consider one but I asked him what other exotics can be had at the same price range he said the Z8 was a steal because no one wanted to buy them in the marketplace at the exorbedent price they where sold at. To give you an idea a 1997 993 TT can be had for a shade under 70K so its not the used car market over here that suffers its just the simple economics that govern the Z8. These guys also regularly deal with M5s/M3s/Aston Martins/New Porsches/Ferraris (they have a georgous example of a 2002 Spider in their showroom right now

I do believe the Aston Martin or Maserati qualify as better cars, not sure if you'd consider the 360 Spider in the same category

Regarldess of production or not the popularity of the SL is all telling they are held in inventory for a week the shortest of any car out there today and to top it off it surpases the 90K mark. The Z8 is a custom order car the only reason they where so popular initially is because it was a Bond car plain and simple. Most people can barely even tell it apart from a Z3.

My local dealership have two Z8s one is a 2003 Alpina and the other is a 2002 Z8 both priced at 130K+ the Z8 has been there for at least 18 months with NO takers.

FrankW

either way, it depends on the region and country. All the Z8 I've seen are selling at at least $100k when used, and there's virtualy none used in my area. If what you said is true it still doesn't make the Z8 any less than what it's priced at. It is a car that's worth the price tag of $130k. One thing that we both forgot to throw into the reasoning is that the Z8 only comes in manual transmission, and the SL only comes in automatic. I'm not gonna say what kind of percentage, but I would guess that much much more people would prefer automatic in today's world.

The argument betweent he Z8 vs the SL55 is like comparing the M5 against the 211 E55. Would you say that the M5 is not worth the money because it has less demands now since the E55 is brand new.

anywayz, we should end this argument since I can't convince you that the technology packed into the Z8 are just as much as the technology packed into the SL55. It's not about the demands of the vehicle.