GreenM3

I read about the issues people have with their ML's and I wonder what they expected when they bought a 4 wheel drive TRUCK.

My 1999 ML430 outclimbs and outperforms many offroad vehicles normally considered to be "more serious". (Of course, the first thing that went were the ridiculous grocery store tires that came stock on the thing.)

The 4 wheel traction system and ESP are superb. In the snow, the TRUCK is a beast.

If you build tolerances very tightly you get a vehicle that can't go off-road. That is a "problem" I hope they never "solve".

You will not see an Acura MDX or a BMW X5 winning any off-road races...

Stiggs

I can't wait until it snows here in CT.
I hope the ML430 kicks butt in the snow.....unfortunately that means I will have to go to work when its snowing out!

But seriously I am looking forward to giving it the real test.

Has anyone here had first hand experience in the snow with their ML?

kullenberg

I've had my ML430 for 3 winters in the snow, here in the Mtns of western NC, and I have to say it does very well. The key is tires! I have Michilen Cross Terrains, and they are very good in the snow. One word of advice; if you have to go up an unplowed, steep drive, turn off the ESP first, that way the torque isn't cut back just when you need it.

whatup?

I had my parents' 1998 ML320 up at school for two years, and that thing was unstoppable in the snow. Ithaca winters can be rough, and Cornell is seemly built on top of a 45-degree incline. So even with killer hills and crappy winters, the ML was a pleasure to drive. It always felt secure, even though the 1998's were not equipped with ESP. I used to take it out to big empty parking lots in the snow for fun, and like I said, that thing was unstoppable.

I remember picking up a friend on one of those killer hills. There was at least a foot of snow near the curb that was pushed aside from a snowplow. With the two right tires in the snow and the others on wet pavement, I simply pressed the accelerator, the yellow triangle lit up, and we were on our way with no fuss. To say the least, its winter traction was amazing, even on the standard tires.

But my parents sold the ML and I'm now back driving the C220, which literally has no winter traction...

champa

I am confused, I am not familiar with off-roading and was interested in hearing your interpretation of tolerances and their relationship to off-roading.
I see tolerances as the amount of deviation from an optimal dimension in a part, system, etc. Given this perspective, the more deviation from optimal, the more chances of failure in the system (i.e. relate to six sigma).

GreenM3

Many ML owners complain about "rattles and squeaks" they attribute to "loose tolerances"- poor quality control in other words. Too much deviation from the optimal specification. This is often not the case.

The tailgate is a good example. There is close to a finger's amount of space between the leading edges and the body of the vehicle.

A vehicle designed to withstand the jarring and bouncing off-road needs to have this "room to flex" to avoid damage. It makes for a less than perfect design if a quiet, rattle-free ride on the freeway is what you are after.

People who expect the "tightness" of a Mercedes sedan will be disappointed by an ML.

I was using the term to indicate that what many attribute to poor quality is simply their discontent with the design.

If I misappropriated a word near and dear to your profession as a Mathmatician, Engineer, or Professional Internet Troll, accept my sincere apology.

In Vino Veritas.

timdf

vehicles to account for the flex and shake etc. But in other areas closely maintained tolerances are essential and it's in this area that the ML has had some well documented problems.
Probably not so much by design as by lack of QA - but the end result is the same, a failure.
I'm thinking mostly electrical here - such as window switches, fuel pump, cooling fans etc. Nothing too serious individually, but cummulatively a real pain.
If Honda et al can do it, why can't the mighty MB ?

Really there is no excuse for many of the ML's problems - especially as some of them have been going on for several interations.

Thai

Green,

Do you even know anything about off-roading?? Geez.

My 4Runner has gaps between panels too. However, there are NO RATTLES, even when off-roading. Period. Yet, my 4runner can easily outperform you in off-roading!

So, i guess with all the rattles in your car, your ML must be king in off-roading??!! My brother's LX470 doesn't rattle either. Strange logic.

You know what this behavior is called, "DENIAL".

GreenM3

I live 1 hour from the Rubicon Trail, in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada and I used to build custom jeeps for a living. (It has been a while.)

Did you say you had a highly modified Toyota Land Cruiser with air lockers?


No, I think you said Toyota Grocery Runner.

Give me a break. Both of our cars are off HIGHWAY vehicles. They don't have the wheel travel to make it over off-road obstacles like rocks and logs.

Do you think a Lexus SUV is in the same league?

People buy ML's and they think they are buying a Mercedes Sedan. They are not.

Your 4 Runner is not an Avalon or a Camry and does not ride like one.

Read the post about the 320 "letting it's owner down" when he couldn't get the seat to fold down while out antiquing. The title of the post would lead you to believe that it broke down in a snow storm.

As far as "rattles" are concerned. It is absurd to say that you don't hear any noises from parts moving around when you are on a rutted dirt road. My ML does not "rattle", but it does not sound like it was carved from a single block of iron like my S500 on the highway. They are different vehicles.

That is all I am trying to say.

Thai

Sorry Green,

But please don't try to compare your ML to my 4Runner. Front wheel travel maybe the same, but my rear axle can articulate much more than your IRS. You can check out my site for pics of my 4Runner. BTW, my rear axle travel is similar to the Land Rover Discovery's rear axle...i know, i compared it with my brother Disco II (2001) over a ditch.

If you're into off-roading (like what you said), then ML is FAR from being a good choice!

Isn't the LX470 the same as a Land Cruiser?? I could have sworn that the Land Cruisers are well-known thru out the world as being the best...yes, even in STOCK form.

Sorry, i just don't hear parts moving around when off-roading. You should get into a 4Runner once of these days and try it out for yourself!

Man, stop making ridiculous excuses for your ML. This is getting real old.

Thai

BTW, not all off-roaders REQUIRE air-lockers.

GreenM3

Thai-

First of all, my ML is far from stock. I just realized that my signature from Benzworld doesn't show up here. It lists my modifications.

It would not be fair to compare my highly modified ML with a stock 4Runner.

Secondly, the Land Cruiser I was referring to was certainly not the SUV you are talking about.

Finally, 4Runners are fine for what they are designed to do. In stock trim they are much more capable off-road (whatever definititon you choose :-) ) than a stock ML. No question about it.

Again, my point is that buying a truck frame vehicle and expecting it to feel like a sedan is a mistake.

If you misunderstood my mention of the Rubicon, I apologize. I would never take my ML up there. I would also never take a 4Runner unless it was highly modified. I have seen plenty of broken SUVs up there. My point is that if you are really talking about off-road, then none of the vehicles mentioned qualify.

The closest I have seen in stock trim is the new Wrangler Rubicon.

Back to my point. If you want a car, buy a car. If you want an "SUV" that rides like a car, get a unibody vehicle. Get nice road tires. Get an S500 or an E430.

If handling is what you are after, don't get an X5. Get a 540i.

Respectfully,

Dave

(I tried to reply to your PM, but kept getting cut off...too many words!)

Thai

Green,

So, what mods do you have on your ML?? I did not know what else you can do to an ML to make it more capable.

Thanks.

Thai

Green,

Nevermind, i saw it. Are you kidding me?? Why didn't you just buy something else, instead of modifying a minivan??

Thanks.

GreenM3

Thai-

Here is my list pasted from Benzworld:

1999 ML430 * Navigation System * 265/70 R17 All terrain T/As *Extrem suspension lift kit* Team ORC diff lockers* Side Step Rails * Brush Guard * HELLA lamps * Front Skid Plate* Fuel Tank Skid Plate *80 liter aux fuel tank* All Weather Mats * All-Terrain Rear Seat Cover * Wet Okole Neoprene Front seat covers* All-Weather Rear Cargo Mat/Divider * Yakima LoadWarrior Rack * Roofmount Fullsize spare * Trailer Hitch * WARN 8000i Multi-Mount Winch

Primarily, the tires and suspension lift get it up off the ground for more clearance, the skid plates protect the vitals, and the diff lockers help when crawling over (modest sized) rocks.

The rest is self explanatory...keep the interior mud friendly...winch me out of trouble from the front or rear...etc.

The toy spare tire space is now filled with the aux tank. Doubles the range of the vehicle.

I have close to 3" more than stock ground clearance.

Your comment about rear wheel articulation is correct. The lockers help if you are in a situation where you might get hung up on less than four wheels.

Don't get me wrong...my goal was to get as much off-highway capability as possible from this rig. Not to build a Rock Crawler.

Your 4Runner can easily exceed my capabilities with some add-ons if it doesn't already.

It isn't as fast as my supercharged M3, however.



-Dave

GreenM3

For fun.

You should try it.

Thank God we don't all have the same taste.

Sure would be a boring place.

You need to lighten up a bit. You are driving a freaking Toyota, for God's sake. It doesn't even have a V8. I hope you never have to actually tow anything uphill.


My mini-van has almost 100 more horsepower, by the way.

http://www.whnet.com/4x4/worldcup.html

Great mini-van article.

Drew_ML

GreenM3,

Don't bother replying...you'll get into a circular argument and never be able to get out. That's why we post on the other board

Thai

Green,

Uhhh...i think my 4Runner run as fast as an ML320 (0-60 in 9-10 seconds), which i think is a better comparison.

Does Tow rating make an off-roader?? Does having a V8 make an off-roader??

But, Green, you're right, i came down a bit hard on you. Sorry.

I still disagree about what you said in this thread.

Thanks.

GreenM3

Thai-

If we had the chance to get out it the dirt together I am sure we would have a blast.

No disrespect intended from my end.

4Runners are great vehicles.

I happen to love my ML430. It is exactly what I wanted from a vehicle of its type now that I tweaked it a bit.

We certainly agree about at least one thing.

ALL TERRAIN T/A TIRES

Warmest regards,

Dave (there is no replacement for displacement) aka GreenM3

Thai

Dave,

Well, we agree on another point: no replacement for displacement. I truly believe that displacement rules, despite all this talk about VTEC, VVTi, etc. When it comes to trucks & SUVs, where TORQUE is essential, displacement rules.

BTW, how long have you had the T/A's?? I just got mine about 1500 miles ago. It is great! It is surprisingly quiet...and love that tri-wall protection. Are you going to get them again when the current ones wear out??

Thanks.

Oh yeah, do you have any pics of your ML430??

GreenM3

6 months.

It was the first mod I did.

Here is a pic when I first got them. If you can imagine about 1.5 inches of additional lift, that is what it looks like now.



(except for the roofrack and the front brush guard, lights etc.)

I will definitely get these tires again. They are the fourth set I have owned. (different vehicles) The guy at the tire shop kept warning me about how I would ruin the ride, etc.

I think they are just fine for the road.

GreenM3

Here is post lift with rack etc. , but you can't see the difference in this pic.

calvin999

I think you both need to do what I did. Sell that pos ML and 4runner and buy a Durango. Way faster and better equiped for off-road use.

Thai

Calvin,

You're kidding, right?? Please say so!

Here are a few questions:

1. What is your ground clearance??

2. What is your approach/departure angles??

3. How's the floating feeling on the highway??

Finally, HOW is it better off-road?? Explain please.

If i want speed, i would have bought a sports car. SUVs are not about speed.

Thanks for answering the questions above.