Lood01

Here is one document for car from 1972 on wards: Just copy this link and paste it in your browser: You can also just search for "EPA Federal warranty"

This document talks about a 5 year. Because this is a early document. The latest is an 8 year 80K warranty. I lost the link I will search for it again and post it here.

https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe/...es=1&ZyEntry=2

Lood01

Here is the newer 8 Year 80K warranty from the EPA website.

https://nepis.epa.gov/Exe/ZyNET.exe/...kPage=x&ZyPURL

Lood01

You found it.

Lood01

Today the dealer called me and said the tank is not included in the warranty. That is the FDA warranty. I asked the following questions.
1. Will my car pass the emissions test like this? Answer from dealer: "No. It will not"
2. Will the emission system still work despite this fault? Answer from dealer: "No. It requires the replacement of the tank to work"
3. Is it the tank that is the problem or is it components the it integral to the tank but essential for the emissions system to work? Answer from dealer: "It is the components integral to the tank that is not supplied separately. That is causing the problem"
4. Am I correct to say that the components integral to the tank is essential to the operation of the emission system. Answer from dealer: "I am not sure what you are getting at but without the tank and components replaced the system will not work."

They are going to take another stab at getting it repaired under warranty.

Lood01

The whole purpose of the federal warranty is to prevent this type of expense for the owner of the vehicle. Because it is my vehicle I can eliminate the adblue system so the CEL does not come on and it will pass the emissions test. That is what the EPA want to prevent.
The hack components is available on the internet. I do not recommend it! I am just saying it is available.

Even worse is if you live in an area where you never see extreme cold temperatures your adblue heater will n e v e r be used. However a CEL code will prevent the system from working under that senario. Sorry guys that is how bad the MB design is.

Lood01

I will post again once I hear back from the dealer.

sgr66

Good references and logic, with which I agree 100%. The problem of course is that MB doesn't agree and that is really the only recourse unless as others have suggested some form of class action is undertaken (which in this case seems to be, based on the aforementioned logic, a "high probability of success" undertaking). The problem with any class action is there has to be enough interest and in particular an interested firm. Hard to argue with the logic you've laid out, but sadly logic without some other incentive doesn't seem to have persuaded anyone to action. Interestingly, the repair shop I use says similar issues with this system occur on other makes/models as well, so one would think there might be enough impact for a class action involving anyone affected by this disconnect of intent and practice.

Please do post your outcome with the dealer, as perhaps if you are successful a precedent would help others make their case. I am not optimistic though, as that is precisely the reason MB hasn't covered this so far... all it takes is doing it once and they are then under pressure (and perhaps even obligation) to cover all.

Lood01

Here is the latest on the adblue tank replacement.

Spoke to the dealer today. They said the tank is not covered. However when I asked they look at the parts that are covered they agree that adblue is mentioned in broad terms. the specific components however do not include the tank.

I asked for the specific part that failed and at that point they decided that they will give it to me for 50% of the cost of parts and labor. I asked for a specific $ amount. Since they quoted me $4K initially. This time they quoted me $2600. My share is $1300. Don't ask me how they got from $4K to $2.6K but they did. Since the price came down I was not complaining. Since the tank is $1300 if I buy it online and install it myself and since I will have to pay $180 for adaption to the dealer. I figured $1300 is a good deal to have my car working while I battle through the EPA.

So I will file a complaint with the EPA and I advise everyone that went through this to do the same.

The argument is as follows: The components integral to the tank is essential to the operation of the emissions system. The parts fail on a regular basis and is therefor of suspect quality. The parts should thus be covered by the Design and Defect warranty. Since the EPA Design and Defect warranty clearly intend to prevent early failure of the emissions system, due to inferior components. Especially since these components integral to the adblue tank are critical for the operation of the electronic emissions control unit. They convey critical information about the adblue fluid. Without the input the electronic emissions control unit cannot function. They are thus part of the electronic emissions control unit even though they are located inside the adblue tank. The manufacturer is therefor obligated to list these in the warranty book of the vehicle and they are not.

It is thus our opinion that the manufacturer (Mercedes Benz USA) is in breach of the EPA requirement as stated by the Design and Defect warranty guidelines.


Here is an extract from the EPA document:
As long as you are not guilty as stated below

What Reasons Can the Manufacturer Use to Deny a Warranty Claim?
If your vehicle is within the age and mileage limits for the applicable emissions warranty, the manufacturer can only deny coverage if evidence shows that you have failed to properly maintain and use your vehicle, causing the part or emission test failure.

You are welcome to use the information I provided when you file a complaint to the EPA. Remember the more complaints are filed the sooner we will see action.

I will post links to the EPA complaint process and forms and documents I find necessary to file the complaint.

Lood01

I got my ML350 back from the dealer. They agreed to meet me halfway on the repair. With no other cheaper choice. The tank would cost me $1300 and the adaption, if i installed the tank myself would be $180. So I told the dealer to repair it.

Strangely the original quote for $2600 was off by $300 when all was done. The dealer honored the the $1300 commitment from me. Still I was paying $1300 for a <$10 part that failed.

I tried my best to file a complaint with the EPA, to no avail. Speaking with an EPA rep I was told that if what I am saying is true, then Mercedes is breaking the law and since it is a civil case. I will have to file a lawsuit against Mercedes Benz.

Al I could get out of the EPA is that anything that cause the vehicle to pollute the environment due to a emissions component failure should be covered by the warranty as stated in the EPA guidelines.

I am willing to participate in class action but I do not have the time to set it up.

So if anyone is willing to recruit an attorney and get the ball rolling. You can count me in.

Below is a link to a document explaining the warranty actually both of them the 24 month and the 8 year. It is clear the intent is to have good quality components. The adblue tank which, is an essential part as the EPA calls it, should thus be covered.

https://www3.epa.gov/otaq/consumer/warr95fs.pdf

Spaniard007

krd2023 I'm with you I've been an owner of BMW and MB for over 25 YRS. My last BMW was a 2005 535i with under 200K ending up going to the crusher after giving up on BMW ....it was a money pit. Changed engine, Dynamic steering issues, control modules for heater, windows, adaptive steering, changed rack and pinion replaced and on ..... My wife's 2011 MB ML-350 another money pit did the oil cooler seals replaced as well and exhaust manifolds, replaced rear left tail light assembly 2 times, now adblue heater element is gone and I'm expecting another big repair for known issues from all forums yet they don't care.

YOU KNOW WHAT IS FUNNY?

WITH ALL OF THOSE BAD CARDS, MODULES REPLACED NOT ONCE DID I HAVE TO REPLACE A FUSE... AREN'T FUSES USED TO PROTECT THE POTENTIAL ELECTRICAL PROBLEMS by blowing a fuse and not the modules? isn't the purpose of fuses to protect the electrical system???

ALL OF THIS TECH HAS BEEN USED TO POINT AT PROBLEMS AFTER THE FACT in my opinion, CAN DIAGNOSE PROBLEMS. EVEN their senior mechanics don't always know the answers and need TO GET GERMAN engineers INVOLVED.

FIRST time I had to replace engine ON ANY OF MY CARS the BMW E60. IT HAD LESS THAT 146k WHEN ENGINE NEEDED TO be REPLACE...I HAD NO LIGHTS, NO WARNINGS JUST DIED ON THE SIDE OF THE ROAD.

MAINTENANCE I'M ON TOP OF IT...AS SOON AS A LIGHT COMES ON THE DASH I ALWAYS HAVE IT SERVICED ASAP

Perhaps the German engineers NA are stupid? It's just a matter of time before they will realize that their short term thinking will have a lasting impact! German cars in my opinion aren't what they use to be and just a cash grab.

I've gone Japanese Infinity G37X.... I've been a loyal German supporter for 25 YRS but I've had enough of the over engineered and the use of sub standard inadequate material to manufacture their vehicles resulting in big repair bills. Aren't we suppose to be buying quality???? As the expression says " you are only as good as your weakest point" If they know of issues at least have the integrity to reduce repair costs for engineering flaws and focusing on the bottom line. They will learn the hard way when they realize how difficult it will be to regain market share.

ml350driver1

2013 ML350 Bluetech. 54,000 miles, check engine light on, Ad-Blue heating element is bad, cost is $1875 from the Winston-Salem, NC dealer. Despite several calls to corporate, MB is offering zero help so far. They are also claiming it’s not part of the emissions warranty.
I had planned to upgrade to a 2017 GLE but if they do not take care of us on this then no more Mercedes purchases for me.

Any recommendations from anyone that was reimbursed?

CLK Group

All BlueTec diesel owners should keep an eye on this:

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w164...itigation.html

krd2023

I'm sorry about your saga, and I feel your pain. You may very well be down the road of becoming a "former Mercedes owner, and never again a Mercedes owner" like me. It's unfortunate that MBUSA is still apparently not acknowledging common Bluetec issues and is not helping you as they refused to help me. Your case is similar to mine, where major components starting failing right around the 50K-mile warranty expiration. In my case, I dealt with a failed ad-blue heating element and pump, oil coolant seal leak due to a common faulty original gasket, and (among other failures) eventual engine failure at 80K+ miles with oil sludge all after routine dealer expensive maintenances (see my saga in my thread here: https://mbworld.org/forums/diesel-fo...tml?styleid=19 ). May your ordeal turn out better than mine! I've lost all hope for MBUSA because of their treatment of me. I'm only still around here to warn others like you experiencing similar symptoms.

ml350driver1

would you please help me get to their website? i could not find it but would love to input my info to be a supporter of any potential class action suit

ml350driver1

Agreed. But what do we do when MBUSA refuses to honor this?

chsu74

Xemodex

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/x164...4775?_k=gxv99b

ml350driver1

Went through the whole gamut and after being treated horribly by the local dealer and by corporate alike, I’ve turned it over to my attorney. Never again will I purchase a Mercedes-Benz nor use their service and I encourage anyone reading this to do the same.

chsu74

Be a bit patient. If you have been following the VW settlement scandal and Mercedes may follow. Worth reading below:

Saw this link on some Gen 3 2.0L "fixed" cars owner reactions.

http://jalopnik.com/volkswagen-tdi-o...die-1791432942

I selected a few quotes (click the link above to read the full article).

"Owners were worried that, when VW came out with a fix for their polluting diesel cars, it would involve a huge decrease in fuel economy and acceleration. But based on initial thoughts from TDI Club Forum members, it looks like Phase 1 of the modification doesnÂ’t do much to fuel economy, even if it might make the cars feel slightly slower."

And,

"Volkswagen admits that the changes to these 2015 model year VWs (equipped with the “generation 3" diesel engines), doesn’t bring pollution below federal emissions standards, but it does improve NOx pollution significantly without affecting performance.

Volkswagen says this first “phase” of the fix (owners will have to come back in early 2018 for the full fix), does not introduce significant changes to “fuel consumption, reliability, durability, vehicle performance, drivability, or other driving characteristics.”

It may, the automaker says, lead to a different engine tone, a change in cooling fan operation, a sport mode that shifts earlier, 1-14 percent higher Diesel Exhaust Fluid use, and an “improvement in throttle response, a smoother acceleration and improved driving experience.”

Based on the impressions above, VWÂ’s claims seems mostly right, other than the sluggish driving bit. But those are just three early impressions, and weÂ’ll need more data points and more time to really know how this fix changes vehicle drivability and fuel economy."

And lastly,

"It’s worth mentioning that the warranty on these repaired cars is incredible. It covers the entire exhaust aftertreatment system including: “The Diesel Oxidation Catalyst, the Diesel Particulate Filter, the Selective Catalytic Reduction converter, the dosing injector and other Diesel Exhaust Fluid system components, the exhaust flap, and all sensors and actuators.”

Perhaps more crucially (because many TDI owners have issues with these parts), it also covers the entire fuel system, “including fuel pumps, high pressure fuel rail, fuel injectors, vibration damper, pressure control valve and all sensors and actuators.”

On top of that, the warranty applies to the EGR system, the turbocharger, the On-Board Diagnostic system, and a lot more.

And itÂ’s a long warranty, too. VW says it spans defines the greater of two options: 1) Your car reaches 11 years of age and 162,000 miles or 2) Five years or 60,000 miles (whichever comes first) from the date and mileage of the phase 1 fix.

When the phase 2 fix comes around, that five years and 60,000 miles will reset. So, yes, the buyback is a lucrative option, but the fix—with its promise of similar performance and mileage, plus this warranty— looks pretty tempting as well."

CLK Group

@ml350driver1

https://www.hbsslaw.com/mercedes-own...tec-diesel-faq

Rod Spohn

I'm having a little problem with the hook up of this eliminator. The wires are black, red, yellow, Orange , Green, Orange , Green. The directions are a little different.... the last 4 are Green, Orange, Green, Orange so dont match the directions. any help please, I dont want topower on and have it wrong.

ml350driver1

because MBUSA was such a royal pain and also the fact that they refused to help, I am now represented by https://www.motleyrice.com law firm and would encourage anyone else reading this that has a diesel MB to do the same.

krd2023

I'm happy to help advise and support your cause if you need my assistance. You, your attorneys, and others in similar situations from common Bluetec engine-related issues (adblue component failures, oil cooler seal leaks, oil sludge, engine failure) may Private Message me if you can benefit from the data, knowledge, and contacts I've gathered from my MBUSA experience as summarized in my thread: https://mbworld.org/forums/diesel-fo...tml?styleid=19

Good luck!

Rod Spohn

I have to come back and thank Vladimir for his product and his help when I ran into problems installing it. Now that it is installed everything is working great and the repair was a fraction of the replacement of the bad part in the tank. I would highly recommend it if your having the adblue heater issue. This is my 4th MB and has so far cost me more than the others combined. Needless to say I'm a little jaded against MB rite now.

Lebencinas

Got Codes P20B9 Reductant heater A control circuit open + P20E8 Reductant pressure too low
Removed the DEF tank and there was a leakage at the pump assembly (causing low pressure) and pressure line heater wire ended up with a short circuit because of corrosion. Replacing the pump assembly Bosch 0928404009 and cleaning the contact should take care of this particular issue.

Lebencinas

The tank on the ML350 2012 is different but I believe the Pump assembly is identical to Gl320 (Bosch part 0928404009 on mine) Pictures and post very useful by keithwbloom! Thanks!