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SL500 Manual transmission?

 
Old 10-27-2006, 06:04 PM
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SL500 Manual transmission?

a friend of mine is considering buying a 2000 SL500. he prefers a manual transmission but the SL only came with an auto in the last few years. i figured we could just swap in a manual.

i have a nissan 240sx so i'm of the attitude that anything is possible given the time and money. my friend however won't want this car to be hacked up too much or be down for too long so i was hoping there was a manual transmission offered with the 5.0 V8 somewhere that would fit. i assume the other parts like trim pieces and pedals could be pulled from an SL300 five speed.

if you could direct me toward some more info, including the engine and transmission codes (not the CEL codes that i always seem to pull up when searching), that would be really helpful. also if rough estimate of cost would be helpful. thanks.
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Old 10-27-2006, 09:49 PM
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Car will be down possibly forever and it will be as costly as the car itself. Cannot be done in any reasonable way.
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Old 10-28-2006, 10:29 AM
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i don't see how that's possible. i could custom fit a t56 or something like that for $10k or less if i really wanted to. unless there's something i'm missing, which it would be nice if you shared with me.

any other info that would help me search, like the engine code? i find it hard to believe that mercedes never put a manual on this V8 even in europe.
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Old 10-29-2006, 10:36 AM
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The automatic is electronic.

What are you going to tell the computer about your new transmission?
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Old 10-30-2006, 03:13 PM
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well, i need to find a transmission first. i found some more info, but not much progress. the engine number of the '00 SL500 is 113.961. assuming the codes are like the chassis codes (first 3 are the important ones, last three are iterations) then anything with a 113 prefix will probably share transmissions. any ideas on which transmissions match?

what signals are the ECU looking for? the manual will have some sensors, probably the same ones but with different signals. anything from the ECU to the transmission can probably be ignored. an ECU pin out would help i guess.

on a side note, he decided to get the car, here it is. http://www.dasvc.com/usedCAR3.htm
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Old 11-03-2006, 03:05 PM
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Hi!

The only SL 129 Model with manual transmission was the 320 SL with a 6 cylinder engine. The 500 SL was never fitted with a manual transmission.
To retrofit a manual gearbox in a 500 Model will be difficult.
Hope this is helping.
MarkusL
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Old 11-03-2006, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by cdlong View Post
i don't see how that's possible. i could custom fit a t56 or something like that for $10k or less if i really wanted to. unless there's something i'm missing, which it would be nice if you shared with me.

any other info that would help me search, like the engine code? i find it hard to believe that mercedes never put a manual on this V8 even in europe.
That transmission will not bolt up nor will the input shaft fit, nor will it bolt up to the mounts. Adapters must be engineered, a clutch designed and built. Now all you have is the problem that the engine will not run correctly as its receiving no transmission input from the automatic sensors which the transmission you mentioned does not have and can't be installed. Try it, be a test pilot and be part of the crash!! By the time you are done with the engineering, machine work, etc. you will have spent maybe 50 to 60 grand and it still won't work!!
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Old 11-04-2006, 07:12 PM
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Originally Posted by cdlong View Post
then anything with a 113 prefix will probably share transmissions.
You're right.

Of course Mercedes NEVER mated a manual to an M113 V8.
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Old 12-01-2006, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by lkchris View Post
You're right.

Of course Mercedes NEVER mated a manual to an M113 V8.
****, i figured that would come out sooner or later, at least you're helpful. is the M119 or M112 similar enough to share transmissions? and if so did those ever come with a manual?

my friend got the car and i got a ride in it. it's nice but less than exciting. waiting for the transmission to respond takes all the fun out of it.

Originally Posted by sosh View Post
That transmission will not bolt up nor will the input shaft fit, nor will it bolt up to the mounts. Adapters must be engineered, a clutch designed and built. Now all you have is the problem that the engine will not run correctly as its receiving no transmission input from the automatic sensors which the transmission you mentioned does not have and can't be installed. Try it, be a test pilot and be part of the crash!! By the time you are done with the engineering, machine work, etc. you will have spent maybe 50 to 60 grand and it still won't work!!
jesus, man. why do you have to be such a downer? it's not your car or your money, why would you offer anything other than encouragement? have you ever actually worked on a car? i mean more than just wiping yours with a diaper? it's really not that complicated if you know what you're doing. a guy put a six speed into a 740iL. granted the engine had one in other cars but it's not too far off.

here are some generous estimates
camaro 6 speed $1000
bellhousing adapter $1000 (nowhere near the first or the last custom one ever made)
custom flywheel $1000 (match M113 ring gear and bolt circle and use a camaro clutch)
camaro clutch $500 (no deed to design and build anything, you could get one at autozone)
custom driveshaft $1000 (nowhere near the first or the last custom one ever made)
interior parts from SL320 $500
electronics $500 (signal from stock speed sensor, reverse sensor, etc can be adjusted, signals from ECU can be rewired to give a false signal so the engine runs properly)

that only adds up to $5500 even if you double that it's still only $11k. nowhere near the $50-60k you pulled out of your ***. will it actually work? i don't know, but your *****ing certainly isn't helping.
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Old 12-01-2006, 07:21 PM
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You posted your idea, however dumb it is on a public forum and you got my response. Try if if you wish but your going to end up with a piece of junk and lots of cash out the door. FYI, I have most likely worked on more cars than you have even owned. I surmise you are maybe 18 yrs old and I guess this may be a lesson for you. But then again you have nothing to lose, its not your car.
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Old 12-01-2006, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by cdlong View Post


it's really not that complicated if you know what you're doing. a guy put a six speed into a 740iL. granted the engine had one in other cars but it's not too far off.
I'm sure something can be done ,granted you use a standalone computer ,build a custom adapter and bolt up a tranny. But in my opinion it will be expensive and not worth it. Better off supercharging the car for the $$$.


You also can't compare the 740IL swap to what your trying to do because all it is is an ECU swap,console swap,flywheel and driveshaft swap with a 540I-6. Alot simpler conversion.

Last edited by ProjectC55; 12-01-2006 at 07:24 PM.
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Old 12-01-2006, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by coolcarlskiC43 View Post
I'm sure something can be done ,granted you use a standalone computer ,build a custom adapter and bolt up a tranny. But in my opinion it will be expensive and not worth it. Better off supercharging the car for the $$$.


You also can't compare the 740IL swap to what your trying to do because all it is is an ECU swap,console swap,flywheel and driveshaft swap with a 540I-6. Alot simpler conversion.
actually i think the parts came from a german 740i, but i wanted to show that just because it's a big german car doesn't mean it has to be saddled by an automatic. the suprecharger isn't going to happen, like the pirelli slogan, "power is nothing without control" my car has half the power and is probably as fast in most situations.

Originally Posted by sosh View Post
FYI, I have most likely worked on more cars than you have even owned. I surmise you are maybe 18 yrs old and I guess this may be a lesson for you. But then again you have nothing to lose, its not your car.
it sure doesn't sound like it, i guess it depends on your definition of "worked on". and thanks for surmising. you were off by almost a decade and it didn't get us anywhere.
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Old 12-02-2006, 10:16 AM
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Originally Posted by cdlong View Post
****, i figured that would come out sooner or later, at least you're helpful. is the M119 or M112 similar enough to share transmissions? and if so did those ever come with a manual?

my friend got the car and i got a ride in it. it's nice but less than exciting. waiting for the transmission to respond takes all the fun out of it.



jesus, man. why do you have to be such a downer? it's not your car or your money, why would you offer anything other than encouragement? have you ever actually worked on a car? i mean more than just wiping yours with a diaper? it's really not that complicated if you know what you're doing. a guy put a six speed into a 740iL. granted the engine had one in other cars but it's not too far off.

here are some generous estimates
camaro 6 speed $1000
bellhousing adapter $1000 (nowhere near the first or the last custom one ever made)
custom flywheel $1000 (match M113 ring gear and bolt circle and use a camaro clutch)
camaro clutch $500 (no deed to design and build anything, you could get one at autozone)
custom driveshaft $1000 (nowhere near the first or the last custom one ever made)
interior parts from SL320 $500
electronics $500 (signal from stock speed sensor, reverse sensor, etc can be adjusted, signals from ECU can be rewired to give a false signal so the engine runs properly)

that only adds up to $5500 even if you double that it's still only $11k. nowhere near the $50-60k you pulled out of your ***. will it actually work? i don't know, but your *****ing certainly isn't helping.
Ok, rather than just dismissing it, I thought about this project, and here is what I can figure out. The 119-not close, the 112 has the same block pattern, so a trans out of a C240 manual (716.623;634 or 638) would bolt to it. Not sure what the flywheel would do to engine balance as one has a balance shaft, and the other doesn't.
The more interesting thing is the electronics- the engine module works very closely with the trans module for lots of things (timing,fuel, cruise control even). The other hitch is that it is programmed to commit suicide if it sees a different VIN than its married number (ie: if you put in one out of another car, it thinks it is being stolen). The guys that are out there building the performance ECUs may be able to help with this- they obviousy have the codes (they used all 2 digit coding back then ((and still)) to tell the module what kind of car is was in) and may be able to change it to manual trans.

All that being said, I think you are de-valuing the car, but it's up to you..
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Old 12-02-2006, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by cdlong View Post
actually i think the parts came from a german 740i, but i wanted to show that just because it's a big german car doesn't mean it has to be saddled by an automatic. the suprecharger isn't going to happen, like the pirelli slogan, "power is nothing without control" my car has half the power and is probably as fast in most situations.



it sure doesn't sound like it, i guess it depends on your definition of "worked on". and thanks for surmising. you were off by almost a decade and it didn't get us anywhere.
If I am a decade off that makes you either 8 or 28. Either way I have more than 3 decades more experience than you. Some people are so stubborn and hardheaded that they only learn by life's experiences. trying to save you that grief but from your attitude you have most likely heard that before.
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Old 12-02-2006, 09:52 PM
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Originally Posted by cdlong View Post
like the pirelli slogan, "power is nothing without control" my car has half the power and is probably as fast in most situations.
That statement clearly has NOTHING to do with the tranny! Does not fully apply!
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Old 12-03-2006, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by MBTech21 View Post
Ok, rather than just dismissing it, I thought about this project, and here is what I can figure out. The 119-not close, the 112 has the same block pattern, so a trans out of a C240 manual (716.623;634 or 638) would bolt to it. Not sure what the flywheel would do to engine balance as one has a balance shaft, and the other doesn't.
The more interesting thing is the electronics- the engine module works very closely with the trans module for lots of things (timing,fuel, cruise control even). The other hitch is that it is programmed to commit suicide if it sees a different VIN than its married number (ie: if you put in one out of another car, it thinks it is being stolen). The guys that are out there building the performance ECUs may be able to help with this- they obviousy have the codes (they used all 2 digit coding back then ((and still)) to tell the module what kind of car is was in) and may be able to change it to manual trans.

All that being said, I think you are de-valuing the car, but it's up to you..
thanks for the insight. and thanks for not dismissing it because it's not what you usually see. i think some others in this thread might have that problem.

the flywheel and balance shaft shouldn't be a problem, since the shafts are usually driven on the front end of the engine. but then again, i obviously know nothing about MB engines so maybe i'm wrong. either way the V8 doesn't have one so it should be easier than vice versa.

the electronics sound like a huge pain in the ***. what exactly commits suicide? is it the computer? that would make sense but seems goofy. ('i know, i'll steal this SL and swap the transmissions, the first step in my plan to take over the world!') who cares if the transmissions are swapped, it just sounds overly complex. too bad it took four mentions of electronics for someone to state some actual information. is it impossible to run the necessary sensor outputs from the trans into the TCU and loop the outputs from the TCU so it thinks everything is OK. or even drop the TCU altogether and do that with the ECU. like you said, that's probably a question for the tuners.

my friend used to drive a '93 volvo 850 that he is basically giving away ($10) and he will likely keep the SL for a very long time so end value isn't much of a concern, but you are probably right.
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Old 12-03-2006, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by coolcarlskiC43 View Post
That statement clearly has NOTHING to do with the tranny! Does not fully apply!
what good is having 300hp if the transmission won't shift to a gear that will use it. think outside the box a little, the analogy isn't that tough. my car is just as fast because it uses all of it's 160hp as opposed to half of the 300hp in the SL.

Last edited by cdlong; 12-03-2006 at 01:02 AM.
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Old 12-03-2006, 01:13 AM
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Originally Posted by sosh View Post
If I am a decade off that makes you either 8 or 28. Either way I have more than 3 decades more experience than you. Some people are so stubborn and hardheaded that they only learn by life's experiences. trying to save you that grief but from your attitude you have most likely heard that before.
good job with the math. better get back to "working on" your car, i can see the dust collecting from here.

so far this has cost me nothing except some spare time. i'm not going to dive in without knowing where i'm going and how i'm getting there. if everyone had the same attitude you are advocating there would be no tuner market and you would have to find some other place to complain about young wipper-snappers.
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Old 12-03-2006, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by cdlong View Post
if everyone had the same attitude you are advocating there would be no tuner market and you would have to find some other place to complain about young wipper-snappers.
Why don't you ask a 'tuner' how much they would charge you to do it and get back to the forum with the price? My bet is they won't even do it for all the reasons you've been given already. But then again...."i have a nissan 240sx so i'm of the attitude that anything is possible given the time and money" People aren't being negative with you, just realistic based on their knowledge of Mercedes. STFF and you'll find this topic has come up numerous times for different engine configurations and all with the same conclusions.
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Old 12-03-2006, 04:20 PM
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Originally Posted by mleskovar View Post
Why don't you ask a 'tuner' how much they would charge you to do it and get back to the forum with the price?
any recommendations?
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Old 12-03-2006, 05:51 PM
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Why would he what a manual transmission, automatics are faster, can transfer more torque than manuals and produce less shock loads. If itís a road track car, yes a manual would be better, but for a daily driver and occasional street race, automatic. For more power, twin turbo or super charger
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Old 12-03-2006, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by cdlong View Post
any recommendations?
Can't help you with that as I don't use tuners but you can probably find some names in this forum....Brabus, Kleemann, Carlson are some names that pop up regarding MB specialists. Please let us know what they say.
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Old 12-04-2006, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by C32AMG/02 View Post
Why would he what a manual transmission, automatics are faster, can transfer more torque than manuals and produce less shock loads. If itís a road track car, yes a manual would be better, but for a daily driver and occasional street race, automatic. For more power, twin turbo or super charger
speed isn't as much of an issue as driver involvement. and street racing (or even drag) is probably the last thing on his mind. even still, how can an automatic transfer more torque? given the same gear ratios, the torque output would be higher with a manual because of lower drivetrain losses.
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Old 12-04-2006, 03:51 PM
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RENNtech has offered these conversions in the past....I think the cost was around $20K.
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Old 12-06-2006, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by cdlong View Post
speed isn't as much of an issue as driver involvement. and street racing (or even drag) is probably the last thing on his mind. even still, how can an automatic transfer more torque? given the same gear ratios, the torque output would be higher with a manual because of lower drivetrain losses.
An automatic transmission is a continuous variable ratio fluid coupler with torque multiplication.

Advantages of an automatic transmission, with a planetary gear set you can shift under extreme torque loads, constant gear engagement with several gears ratios, less shifting time and loss of torque, less shock load, Dump a clutch in a manual transmission with a 600,700,800 HP motor and you are going to drop some parts, rear, drive shaft, transmission gears.

Yes, you will have some parasitic HP loss with a torque converter, but a torque converter is what its name implies, what you lose in HP you will gain in TORQUE, the stator in a torque converter helps in turning the engine at a ratio of 2:1 in some converters. Cars with low ETs and engines with 600, 700, 800, 900, and 1000HP are 98% automatics or direct drive transmissions.
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