loubapache

The cutoff date is more for legal reasons rather than technical. It is just when the suit was filed, that cutoff date was used. MB, however, does mandate synthetic oil to be used in the engines to follow FSS.

I bet that MB will come back to you and the dealer suggesting a minor sludge treatment first, i.e., change oil/filter, run, and change oil/filter again. They MIGHT use oil and/or fuel treatment in th process.

Let us know what they decide to do.

Musikmann

I certainly will Bo. The service manager said it will take MB a few days to get back to him and then he is supposed to call me. If I don't hear anything in 7-10 days, I will call him, just in case he didn't get around to submitting the form!

Did you even wonder why, in light of these issues, MB continued to use this engine up until 2005? It seems to me that they would have developed the 350 (or whatever) sooner than they did.

loubapache

These engines rarely fail under warranty and that is all MB cares about, LOL.

As a matter of fact, they could seal the engine and declare "filled for life, no service needed." They should stiil be good for at least 50k miles.

Can you imagine that MB has a 4-year warranty on corrosion while VW has for 12 years?

Musikmann

All of this is too bad, and we are unlucky to have the cars they are making these days. Like a lot of people have said: The W124 and W126 were designed as a "cost no object" car by engineers, and the more recent ones were dictated by bean-counting accountants.

As to your "filled for life" comment, you mean like these 722.6 "lifetime transmissions" we have been talking about? You are probably correct in that, but I'd hate to see the condition of the motor oil at 50,000. Mine, which is 9000 miles old (and after 4 fresh quarts added) looks awful now. I asked the tech who did my work the other day, and he thought it looked okay for the number of miles, but I don't think he was fully aware of how much I have put in there.

That corrosion warranty is a joke too; I had no idea that MB and VW differed by that much. Didn't they up that a little for the W210 though, once so much rust began to appear on these?

sosh

I believe you are incorrect and that the cut off date took into consideration when the engines began coming thru with synthetic not dino. The law suit was by the way for a 98 ML which had the fss but was using dino oil. It also came out that the owner did not follow the FSS and did not change the oil when t said to. It was based upon "questionable" wording in the owners manual regarding the type of oil and the changes. So happens that the owner of that ML was an attorney. The engine did not burn oil but did fail with a bad bearing. I folled that and have read the transcripts. MB ended up settling after the trial began. It was not a cash settlement but only the warranty extension on the engines.

loubapache

The engines are the same before and after the cutoff date. The only difference is the mandate for synthetic oils. That was stated in my original post and you quoted it. So no technical difference but calling for synthetic oil.

There are far more than just one owner who had engine problem with the M112. If you go to the Mercedes Lemon forum at http://www.troublebenz.com/cgi-bin/h...rumID1/17.html, you will see there are far more than just a few owners having problems. If he were the only one, MB would have settled it before going to court.

There was a cash settlement as well. $35 to the owners as service certificate. Beow are some MB coporate communications to owners. Remember these are MB communications so it tell story from only one side but the settlement facts are accurate.

<<
After our March 2001 letter, a Mercedes-Benz owner filed a class action lawsuit claiming that the use of conventional oil could result in engine damage. In fact, a very small number of Mercedes-Benz owners have experienced oil sludge and fewer still experienced related engine damage from the earlier use of conventional motor oil, particularly when FSS service intervals were not carefully followed.

....Nonetheless, without admitting any wrongdoing, we have agreed to settle the class action in order to return our focus to providing our customers the exceptional ownership experience we know you expect when purchasing a Mercedes-Benz vehicle.

To demonstrate our commitment to superior performance and quality, we will cover your vehicle up to ten years from the date of first purchase or lease or 150,000 miles (whichever occurs first) under the terms of your existing warranty or any extended warranty you have purchased from MBUSA in the unlikely event of any future oil sludging or related engine damage in your vehicle from the earlier use of conventional, approved motor oil (API SH or S). MBUSA will also encourage its dealers to maintain their regular policy on loaner vehicles and other customer care benefits during any needed repairs. This coverage applies as long as you maintain your vehicle in accordance with our recommendations, including making the switch to approved pure synthetic motor oil as recommended in the March 23, 2001 letter. The specifics of this warranty coverage are outlined in the enclosed Notice of Class Action Settlement which we urge you to read carefully.

....

You can rest assured that some of the world's best automotive engineers stand behind your Mercedes-Benz. If you have any questions or would like more information, please contact us at 1-800-367-6372.

Sincerely,
Mark Juron
MBUSA General Manager
Product Management
Parts and Services"

"NOTICE OF PENDING CLASS ACTION AND PROPOSED SETTLEMENT"

"TO: All persons throughout the United States, Puerto Rico and U.S. territories who at the time of Final Settlement approval own or lease a model year 1998,1999,2000 or 2001 (first purchased or leased before March 31, 2001) Mercedes-Benz vehicle equipped with the Flexible Service System ("FSS")(the "Settlement Class" or "Class")

YOU ARE HEREBY NOTIFIED of a class action lawsuit that is pending in this Court and which parties propose to settle on a class-wide basis on the terms set forth below.

If approved by the Court, the proposed settlement ("Settlement") will offer to all members of the class warranty coverage for oil sludging and related engine damage which may result from the use of API SH or SJ conventional motor oil in 1998 through 201 model year FSS-equipped Mercedes-Benz vehicles first purchased or leased before March 31, 2001 ("Vehicles"). It will also provide for the distribution of Maintenance Service Certificates in the amount of $35 each to owners and lessees of 1998 and 1999 vehicles usable as credit toward future scheduled service at an authorized Mercedes-Benz dealer which includes an oil change (A or B Service). Owners and lessees of 2000 and 2001 vehicles are already covered for these expenses under the Mercedes-Benz Maintenance Commitment.

If you are a member of the Settlement Class, you have the right to participate in the proposed Settlement. You may choose to exclude yourself from the Class. If you elect to exclude yourself from the Class, you will not receive all the benefits of the proposed Settlement.

On August 7, 2002, the parties filed their proposed Global Class Action Settlement Agreement with the Court. By order dated August 12, 2002, and entered on August 14, 2002, the court conditionally certified the Class for settlement purposes only, approved this form of notice to the Class, and scheduled a hearing on the settlement for November 25, 2002.

None of the actions taken by the court in connection with the issuance of this notice constitute an opinion of the court as to the validity or truth of any plaintiff's legal or factual allegations or of the positions taken by any party in this action.
>>

loubapache

<<
All of this is too bad, and we are unlucky to have the cars they are making these days. Like a lot of people have said: The W124 and W126 were designed as a "cost no object" car by engineers, and the more recent ones were dictated by bean-counting accountants.
>>
See my profile? I still have a 1991 300E with 120k miles. The best driver among the three current MBs I have. Just replaced the front sway bar bushings and this car drives like new.

<<
As to your "filled for life" comment, you mean like these 722.6 "lifetime transmissions" we have been talking about? You are probably correct in that, but I'd hate to see the condition of the motor oil at 50,000. Mine, which is 9000 miles old (and after 4 fresh quarts added) looks awful now. I asked the tech who did my work the other day, and he thought it looked okay for the number of miles, but I don't think he was fully aware of how much I have put in there.
>>
I was just trying to make fun of MBUSA.

<<
That corrosion warranty is a joke too; I had no idea that MB and VW differed by that much. Didn't they up that a little for the W210 though, once so much rust began to appear on these?
>>
Many of these are "goodwill" helps. That still does not change the basic corrosion warranty of 4 years and 50k miles. That makes MB, among all luxury car brands, having the shortest corrosion warranty period.

Many W210 owners, however, have gotten MBUSA assistance in rust repairs. Some were covered 100% and others were lower. I got my front spring perches replaced earlier this year and MBUSA paid 50%. At the time, my car was 10 years old and with 80k miles (no rust whatsoever on the body). Afterwards, the service advisor told me that because I was a "bad" customer (I do not spend $$$ at the dealerships for services) and the perches were not fully broken off, MBUSA paid only 50%. My car got three more scratches during the repair and it is hard to prove so I dropped the matter.

During the repair, the dealer gave me a loaner, a 2007 VW gasoline Jetta. I read the manual (just for curiosity) and it was from that manual I found that VW offers 3 times as long as MB in the corrosion warranty department.

sosh

Of course there was more than one owner it was a class action law suit, however it was one attorney that had a problem, got the thing rolling and had the class certified. The cash settlement was a joke and it was not cash, just a few bucks as a credit. Thats not a cash settlement for damages. FYI, my original 98 ML320 that I had always used dino oil and changed according to the FSS is still seen in my area. The last time I spoke with the owner who bought it after I traded he had over 300,000 on it and never a problem other than normal maint. That by the way includes the trans which still has the original fluid in it. He still has it dealer serviced but switched to synthetic after 200,000 miles! MB agreed to negotiate the settlement as the cost of the settlement was far less than taking it thru trial. Yes, the FSS was designed for synthetic oils, however my sources tell me that MB did not complete their certification in time to use it for the earlier vehicles. They in fact were very late with it. I have read the transcripts and witness depositions and they are the facts which quite frankly are very close to what MB said in their statement. Look, we are not helping this guy who started the thread with a problem. I still feel that there is a mechanical problem with the internals of his engine. He should follow thru with the path he has started and get it resolved. As for the rust problem a few 210's have had this and no others to any extent that I have heard. I also know that MB has stood up for any rust problems on the 210 in or out of warranty.

sosh

Been to Huntington, You might have the only MB there except for maybe a coal operator. I am not far from Chads Ford, in fact the MB dealer I use is on 202 near West Chester and they are teriffic. Yes any short haul commuter flights are very expensive. I am a retired airline captain and I flew people to Europe for less money than it took to go to Charleston. I also had most of my career a corporate aircraft sales business and dealership that I sold some years ago and that took me to the other places in WVA. I have since started another non aviation business that I have owned and operated for the past 10 years. We sold many aircraft to coal and chemical companies in WVA and one I remember quite well for various reasons to a Doctor in Bluefield. I remember Charleston fondly also as it was one of my first trips as a very young captain many many years ago. I was glad to see Chuck Yeager get the recognition he deserved with the airport name. I happen to know him and have flown with him in the 80's when he was doing some PR for a manufacturer whose aircraft we were selling. Anyway this does not help your problem. Its not common no matter what some bitter people are saying. Just cooperate with your dealer and have them do the right thing for you which I believe would be replacing the engine. These are great cars but nothing is perfect and MB does stand behind them if you treat them properly. Remember that you are only one of millions of customers and you bought used but this should not be a problem. Be patient and polite.

vettdvr

Just an opinion after reading the information.

My thoughts are the engine is damaged with dino oil while running the MB recommended frequency. Who put what oil in when may never be known. It might have been done at the dealership intentional or error. But I think even 2000/qt might be ok,, but the engine is damaged and rings probably scuffed/lost tension and can't control oil properly. The solution to rebuild or replace with new is a quality question I can't answer. I have rebuild many engines personally that ran very well and used a qt every 3000+ miles but never under that. Syn oil is a must for this car and I (based on blackstone lab data) believe that synthetic will get the life out of the engine.

How MB works this will be an interesting to know. I was considering replacing our E500 (v8) with a S430 next time,, but it is imperative that MB maintains customer satisfaction for these prices. Our 03 E500 has no oil added between oil changes at about 14000 miles based on FSS.
Best of luck. Jim

Musikmann

Hello again Bo,

A. Yes I see that in your profile, those are nice cars, and I wish I had a nice W124. I have been casually looking at those, plus the W126.

A. No problem for me. There are quite a few things they do that make me laugh, but sometimes cry.

A. Sorry to learn of the scratches, but at least your spring perches are now safe.

Thanks for the feedback.
Mm

Musikmann

That probably was true in the past, but there are a few MDs driving Mercedes here, and I think the majority are leased. Gen. Yeager is one of the very few famous people to have come from West Virginia (let's not forget Soupy Sales and Dagmar were both from Huntington though!). Thanks for sharing your WV memories.

Fortunately, I have a good relationship with my dealer, and of course, the CPO warranty to protect me. This might be a good test to see just how good these really warranties are. I gambled by extending the 12/100,000 that comes with the car to 24/100,000 and it has already paid for the well-known squeaky rack and pinion steering problem.

Musikmann

Thanks for your insight too Jim. I did know that some owners and dealers were using dino oil and that supposedly caused the sludging issue, which in turn led to the O'Keefe class action suit thing.

Even though I have (what I think is) the complete service history, I don't think it indicates what type of oil they were using. I could call them, or stop by, to check however; they seem like nice people and have helped me in the past.

Musikmann

I think I mentioned that one of the techs said I was not running my car hard enough, or at least that I would see a decrease in oil consumption if I ran it harder.

Ever since he said that (beginning last Friday), I have found a couple of hills and have been putting the car into kickdown mode several times while driving about 20 miles per day. So far, so good, the car's measuring device says oil level is o.k.

vettdrv aka Jim suggested that there might have been dino oil in this car at some point, while following the FSS schedule with that. I have looked over the service history and see no indication of that unless for some odd reason, the originating dealer chose to do that. I plan to call them tomorrow to see if that is a possibility.

tcesario

bore scope the cylinders and and you probably will see heavy scoring on the walls,i have seen a few 112 motors lately getting rebuilt at my dealer for this reason ,it does happen alot and starmark will cover if the diagnosis is performed by the right tech,good luck ,and it wouldn't hurt to ask the service manager to get involved.

Musikmann

Thank you tcesario,

It looks like the service manager is very much invlolved. So far, he picked the tech to run the Star report, and had him measure the oil level with that millimeter oil dipstick you guys have. His remarks about the Star printout included that MB will probably consider my engine to be at least marginally within whatever parameters they are now using before paying for something like a rebuild.

That service manager is supposed to be filling out the special MB form now, and he will call me when MB tells him what to do next. He said there will be 3-4 possibilities, and a bore scope analysis was one of them.

He lets us request a certain tech, and I have the same guy in mind who told me to start driving it harder. I think he has been there the longest, and a lot of other people request him. He also seems like a nice guy, and in fact, it was he who I requested for my transmission service.

Welcome to the forum!

Musikmann

I just spoke with the original dealer's service manager, and he was familiar with the O'Keefe lawsuit and the oil problems endemic to some of these engines. He has also been through the various steps within the last 12 months.

He said if I was going to him with the problem, the 1st thing he would advise is to begin an oil consumption test. He said I am going to need solid documentation that will need to be presented to the MB technical people. Also, waiting for a reply from MB at this time (as my service manager is advising) is pointless because Daimler is not in any hurry to spend money on my engine.

He stated further that this is the way they have always handled this issue with the M112 engine. Plus his idea of the consumption test is a bit different. They change the oil and have us come back in 1000 miles for a measurment. I think my dealer does the oil change, but then has us come back when the FSS says to add oil.

I suppose the net result will be the same, but I am waiting for a return call from my service manager as I write this.

loubapache

I like your original dealer's procedure, i.e., new oil and then watch it.

I was going to offer the following earlier but it is a bit controversial but many have experienced this.

Many experience higher oil consumption in an older oil than in a new oil. Another way of saying this is that the oil consumption rate increases as the oil ages. You certainly have this happening.

One possibility of this is that the oil is breaking down. I did not want say this earlier because the Mobil 1 fanatics will say that the 0W-40 is rated for 15k miles or whatever.

There are some oil analysis show that the Mobil 1 0W-40 is rather fast to be sheered down to a 30 viscosity oil. This could be attributed to the wearing out of the additives, which provide heat and oxidation resistance. Once these additives wear out, the base oil will break down faster.

I am very curious as what your oil would test out now. If there is a way, I would collect a sample and send it out for analysis (or at least keep the sample for now).

I know your oil nearing the life of the FSS, even though you have added a few liters of new oil.

loubapache

MM:

This thread might interest you.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/foru...0&fpart=1&vc=1

Musikmann

Hello again Bo,

You have again provided a lot of meaningful information here, and I thank you.

Just to clarify, by "original dealer" I am referring to the place where the car was bought new, and who has done all A and B services, the last A being at about 50,000 miles. It was traded in and they sold it as a CPO to a man whose wife had wanted a Jaguar. The man traded it for a Jag at the dealer where I bought it with 53,000 on it. They did a 2nd CPO and sold it to me as such in June, 2006.

The "original" service manager also confirmed that, to the best of his knowledge, there has never been any dino oil in this engine. He also said he has changed the oil in oil consuming engines and some have not used any for 3000-4000 miles. Hmm, seems to be further verification of your theory!

You have provided a perfectly logical explanation for my consumption, and I think you are correct when you felt it would be considered controversial. I am not a fanatic about Mobil1, I just want the car to stop drinking it.

My dealer (the recent seller) has not called me back yet, but I think I am going ahead with the oil consumption test. I don't have to mention that it was the other dealer's idea.

It's a little ironic your mention of my having the oil analyzed. I already used Blackstone Labs in Indiana for my ATF analysis and I was very impressed with them. I have a couple more of their sample bottles and had already planned to send them some of this oil when I have the next oil change. I will certainly post the results here for you to see.

Thanks again,
MM

Musikmann

Hello again Bo,

I am trying to capture your attention because I have started upon a version of the so-called "Italian tune-up". As I might have mentioned a tech who overheard my conversation said that I would consume less oil if I drove the car harder, and that couldn't hurt anything.

What I did was to add a large bottle of Techron Concentrate into the gas tank and have been putting the Benz into kickdown 4-5 times a day. I have gotten no warning from the car to add oil since.

I am slightly above 1/2 tank of gas and plan to continue until I'm down to about 1/4 tank. The FSS says I am due for the B service in 4300 miles, but after adding each of the oil quarts, it increased by 1000 miles per quart so I think I am actually due after 300 more miles.

Therefore, when it reaches 4000 I'm going to at least have the oil changed and will get a sample for Blackstone Labs to analyze. Depending on the cost, I might also go ahead with the B.

Thanks,
MM

loubapache

Sounds good.

With Techron, you really need to change the oil after treatment. The oil is probably getting dirty very quickly now (It is probably already jet black already before you added Techron.) Although the color of the oil does not tell the oil is bad, it does show that there are lots of suspended stuffs in the oil.

I personally do not like FSS because it does not measure the quality of the oil. (Hey, add one qt of cooling oil and FSS will also extend by 1000 miles. ) The way you are adding oil, your oil will never need to be changed according to FSS. Let's see, if the engine consumes more than 1 qt per 1000 miles, then FSS will never call for an oil change.

I think your oil consumption might have been caused by minor sludge. Italian tune-up should help if that is the case, I would go even further. Put in the 3rd gear and drive at 55 - 60 mph for half an hour.

Musikmann

Hi Bo,

Thank you again for the feedback. I did not like the looks of the MB oil on the dipstick a few hunfred miles ago either. I would not call it jet black, but it was definitely blackish. Maybe funny, but on my other cars (1991 Toyota Camry V6 w/100k and 1994 Plymouth Accaim V6 w/147k both dino oils look like new when I check them, but I have had them changed every 3000 miles without fail, and have done so since they were both new cars.

harkgar

Funny you should say that. I had an Infiniti Q45 (1994) which needed no oil between oil changes. Zero. The oil was also clear to brown but never black. I think the built quality and tolerance was better than MB engines of the same vintage.

Musikmann

Seems that way doesn't it? Damn shame too since Mercedes at least used to be among the finest cars produced in the world.

Infiniti, as far as I know, is a fine brand (highly recommended recently by Consumer's Reports) and the functional equivalent to Toyota/Lexus as are the Nissans. Honda/Acura is right up there too.

This statement is blasphemous on this forum, but maybe the MB engineers should take a few lessons from the Japanese?