pointman

not necessarily for mbs, but for all cars. what is the advantage of synthetics over reg.? some are trying to tell me it is simply the change intervals.

BoSoxFan

Superior lubricating properties which results in less engine wear. A secondary benefit is the extended change interval.

pointman

thanks for the input. im with you but so many people as of late are trying to convince me that synthetics do not truly reap those benefits as earlier thought. supposedly, if reg. oil is changed early then they will hold up just as well as synthetics.

Kestas

Ask seven different mechanics and you'll get nine different answers.

There are pros and cons to both sides of the argument. This topic has been beaten to death. I see you have 2142 posts. I'm surprised you brought this topic up. If you search this topic on this or any other automotive forum, you're sure to get all the information you're looking for.

For starters, try the following link:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/ultimatebb.cgi?

pointman

i understand the significance of the search button... trust me. I am a big advocate of it. but in this case i am trying to get a fresh prospective as it is an everchanging topic. i have my opinions and thoughts on it, but like i said, lately people have been trying to change my stance on it, with their so called "new found information."

anyway, thanks for the link... but ive read up the *** about this and wanted some of the mb techs, mb enthusiasts, and true drivers real thoughts on it.

Audi Junkie

"Superior lubricating properties which results in less engine wear"

Wear is the same between dino and synth. The additive package is more important than basestock as far as wear goes.

pointman

so you believe wear is the same? really, thanks... thats what alot of people have been saying lately.

im sorry but can you explain the second half of your statement, im not understanfing... thanks.

Audi Junkie

A finished oil consists of a base oil and various additives. A quality base oil is not going to do any good without high-quality additives.
Wear is not a problem with nearly any oil used. Sludge is the #1 problem. MB spec oil can go 10,000mi, good SM/GF-4 "dino" can go 5000. I feel draining all contaminates out more frequently is better than long intervals on better oil.

Here is a copy of another other oil post I did here:

Do NOT use Mobil 1 30 weight oil! It is a thin 30 weight and totally insufficient viscosity for a German engine. Any 15w-40 dino meets MB 228.3 spec and is suitable for warm weather. Any 5w-40 will work well. Mobil 1 0w-40 is what you are supposed to use, but the SUV 5w-40 might be better. I use German Castrol Syntec 0w-30 from AutoZone. It says "Made in Germany" on the back. It is a thick 30 weight, on the 30/40 borderline. Syntec 5w-50 is suitable. Newer dino oils that say "SM" or "GF-4" are the equivalent of most synth oil of not long ago. For winter, 5w-30 Motorcraft, Mobil Drive Clean, Havoline or Pennzoil if you don't want to spend for synth.

Audi Junkie

More here:

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php

pointman

thanks for the great explanation and the link. my situation is that i own a r34 syline and the dealer is kind of lost about what kind of service i should do about oil changes. i have 5k miles on it, but i have just recently started to actually drive it. the dealers service reps tell me ten different things... "use reg. oil..itll be fine." "switch to synthetic after another 5k or so."

but my point is that either way i plan on changing the oil every 3k anyway. and ive heard stories of synthetics ruining seals in low mileage cars.

thats my dilemma. your opinion on my situation is appreciated.. thanks again.

Audi Junkie

Nissan manuals in USA warn against synthetic oil. It was a recent topic on the oil forum. If you want to avoid seal swell/shrink issues associated with PAO/Ester oil, use a Gruppe-III hydrocrack oil. Nowadays, that means a dino oil that has been hydroprocessed into a "synthetic".

You could do Used Oil Analysis to see how various oil does at your chosen intervals. Varoius wear metals become suspended inthe oil and correspond with different areas of the engine. Al, Fe, Cu, etc.

Look for the new SM/GF-4 spec, that is the new one for Japanese cars. An SM oil like Mobil Drive Clean Oil 5w-30 or Motorcraft is mostly G-III synth for $1.50. Havoline or Pennzoil is great too. I use German Syntec 0w-30 aka GC or SLX, kinda exotic. Saab Synth is a Euro-made Mobil 1 product, awesome, $3.

pointman

Aj, you are the man with the oils. to be honest, i want to be able to drop my car off at the dealer and have them do a oil change... reg or synthetic. you lost me with the excellent descriptions.

Nissan says no synthetic??!!? then how come the dealer gives me the option???

sounds like i should go with the reg. you agree with the talk about seals leaking with synthetics then??? thanks again.

pa28pilot

I'm used to doing oil analysis for aircraft engines that I've owned, and wouldn't go without it. As I'm about to take delivery of a new E, I'm giving serious thought to starting it for the new car as well. There's nothing like a good baseline...

The question I have is this: Given that most dealers are doing oil changes with a pump through the dipstick tube (if there's even a dipstick anymore), how does one get a clean sample? Will the dealer service people even consider changing their procedure in order to accomodate acquiring samples?

I know with aircraft, the test labs always recommend taking the sample from a stream that's flowing from a drain plug hole, in mid-stream.

If anyone actually does oil analysis on their MB, please share how you went about it.

Thanks.

Audi Junkie

Look for the new SM/GF-4 spec, that is the new one for Japanese cars. An SM oil like Mobil Drive Clean Oil 5w-30 or Motorcraft is mostly G-III synth for $1.50. Havoline or Pennzoil is great too.


The stuff is "synthetic" without seal issues and costs $2/q.

BoSoxFan

I would be very interested in the results of any analysis. All of the discussion on this and the oildrop sites seems to be based on opinion rather than analysis. A google search led me mostly to lubricant producer web sites which are not necessarily very objective. But the analysis seems to be overwhelming that synthetics result in less wear and longer life. For example, a study of NYC taxicabs showed that after 60,000 miles taxis with only one change of AMSOil showed similar wear and deposits as those which had been changed every 3,000 miles with petroleum products. The taxis which had their AMSOil changed at 6,000 and 12,000 mile intervals had less wear than the 3,000 petroleum vehicles. This was a test using real vehicles in service. Laboratory tests using the standard 4 ball test consistently demonstrate that synthetics result in less wear. And, this seems to be the experience in the aviation and racing industries which are among the most demanding of environments.

Audi Junkie

Cool, some discussion. The 4-ball wear test is an EP test made for greases. No place in an I-C-E will see similar pressures except a turbo-diesel valvetrain. Those pressures are dealt with in engines and EP grease by organo-metallic additives like zink (ZDDP) and Molybednium in diesel-rated oils. These diesel oils work great in gas cars, I use Mobil Delvac 1300S 15w-40. Basicly olive oil will pass this test if you additize it enough, base oil is unimportant. There is no excessive wear shown (by UOA) with the other oils that the test mentioned in an I-C-E. Borate esters rather than metallics preform the EP and AW functions in newer oil formulations.

I dunno about the AMSoil tests you cited but all of their online hype represents poor methodology and outright scamming, like the 4-ball test. Knowledgable AMSoil Reps on the oil Forum are embarassed by the online vendors' "tests". In the Consumer Reports' Taxi Oil Study, it too was flawed by the fact the engines were still breaking-in during the dino test phase and the nature of the taxis' driving cycle with few cold-starts and much idleing. I expect a PAO base to do better when drenched in excess fuel from idling. In fact, wear numbers are lowest with plain 'ol dino oil. Some tests indicate wear is highest with fresh oil and decreases with service!!!??? Wear is a non-issue ,imo. A big issue is sludge formation, which does not show on a UOA lab analysis. Beat sludge with frequent changes. I leave my filter on for 2 fluid changes. False seals result from varnish too. A lot is going on with the oil people use and they have no idea. Every oil is a different formulation and oil blenders change them often. My oil is green and smells like Gummi Bears, does yours? There a 6 basic base oil types and 20+ additives, all vary in cost and effectiveness. It pays to know what will work in your car. People have to buy new engines every day due to oiling issues. PS it looks like SM-Spec Mobil Drive Clean PLUS is 40% PAO / 60% HC synth, base oil-wise it blows away other full synthetics for $2/q.


http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...?ubb=forum;f=1

Audi Junkie

Green and Gummi Bear smell. = German Syntec. Pour point of -84f, outrageous.


PSS, the oildrop has a whole section devoted to Used Oil Analysis. Perhaps that's why you saw mostly opinions on the discussion area.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php


The additives section should be most helpful to 2nd and 3rd owners. I won't mention a name, but there is only one additive the gurus use and it is awesome.

BoSoxFan

Lots to learn here. Interesting discussion. Thanks for the link to the analysis results.

orcberg

Audi Junkie, thanks for the information. I have to say you've taught me a few new things from just reading over this thread. And thanks for starting the topic, ahopeter.

c4791p

Amen from me as well.

It was great to learn, without first having to ask.

Chuck

pointman

Audi Junkie

I noticed long ago how bad consumption was in certian Euro cars. In my Mother-in-Laws' A6, I had to nag her to check and add oil. Ultimately, I decided to spend more money for better oil or at least use 15w-40 when it was warm. Her rate went from 1q/1200-1500mi to .5q/2500-3000mi. One-quarter as much oil was being volitized into ashy crud and sludge. My rate is about 1 1/2q /10,000 miles on German Syntec. If you have high consumption, you have sludge too. I also noticed consumption went up as the oil went through it's service life. I know Mobil 1 0w-40 is just ok on consumption, but have seen people use it with good results for long, long periods. Seems like a pain to keep it topped-off. Here is the problem, we use thin oils in the USA because of CAFE mpg requirments and mgfs try to squeeze every 1/10 mpg they can. In Europe, Mobil is not as big a player and their best seller is 5w-50. Yep, 5w-50. Not even sold here. That's ok, they don't sell 30 weight Mobil 1 in Europe!!! Should you use Syntec 5w-50? My BOSCH Service Center does. If I was filling a Mercedes for someone who would not check the oil ever, yep, it would be best. No offense, my impression of some MB owners is they think they drive such a special car...why would they need to pop the hood and check the oil??? Mercedes is so great that I can just drive it and not worry, blah. Contrast to the BMW owner who pops the hood too much and screws with things. Funny, MB has the most sringent oil specs. As a lighter trivia topic, did you guys know Audi was originally owned my Mercedes? Yep. Few people know that, even salesmen. Honestly, don't take advice on oil from anyone except a BitOG Member or actual professional Triboligist. There are definately some smart people on that oil forum, PhD Organic Chemists and even a Propulsion Engineer.

wizkid

Check it out http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/stories/mobil1.html

Synthetic's have superior life and lubricating characteristics.

I change my Z28's oil every 3,000 miles, unless I am racing at the strip a lot and I change it after every race night. But I have $$ in my motor and I don't want to be walking over a cheap oil change.

I use to take my 99 Silverado 5.3 L 20,000 miles before a filter and oil change. That truck is on it's third owner and still doing fine after 200k miles. I used Mobil 1 and M1 filter.

Eric
www.installuniversity.com

Audi Junkie

The thing is...they don't. There are plenty of old clunker cars going around on dino and barely any oil maintenance. Synthetic oils cannot even disslove additives and need a mineral oil added as a carrier. I'm not sure what "lubricating characteristics" are anyway. Internet oil info...

pa28pilot

This is good advice, but even on the BitOG board, I have some concerns. For example, it's not at all clear to me that there are meaningful data to be had from everyone's posted analysis reports. My experience in the aviation environment suggests that used oil analysis is really only meaningful in the context of trend monitoring within the context of one brand of oil, used in one car, with all tests done by one analysis shop. Change any of those parameters, and meaningful comparisons go out the window.

Cars appear to be different only in that any lab can tell you if you have glycol (antifreeze) in your oil, which is abnormal. Any more precision than that would seem to hinge on the consistency I described above.