Jeep SRT8 vs. Mercedes ML63 from a stop
05-19-2007, 03:52 PM
#227
MBWorld Fanatic!
Well..well....the Jeep SRT8 now has a flash available to level the playing field......tonight I ran at Irwindale and she ran a 8.2@83.5 DA was 1,871ft above sea level......hhhhhmmmm...........that equates to 8.10@85.59
.....and converts to a 12.64 in the 1/4 ..................."here ML...ML".....
.....and converts to a 12.64 in the 1/4 ..................."here ML...ML".....
05-19-2007, 03:57 PM
#228
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: OC, CA
Posts: 1,359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
215
Well..well....the Jeep SRT8 now has a flash available to level the playing field......tonight I ran at Irwindale and she ran a 8.2@83.5 DA was 1,871ft above sea level......hhhhhmmmm...........that equates to 8.10@85.59 .....and converts to a 12.64 in the 1/4 ..................."here ML...ML".....
.....and converts to a 12.64 in the 1/4 ..................."here ML...ML".....
06-14-2007, 02:04 AM
#229
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Orange County
Posts: 294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2006 E55
Qualcomm Races Friday June 22
SOCAL ML63's
We got six (6) Jeeps heading up to race at Qualcomm Friday June 22. They run four (4) lanes simultaneously and you will see like 8-10 runs an hour.......thats alot of time for you 
ML boys to come stomp....I mean romp with some SRT8's.
They start racing at 6:00 pm and end at midnight......current Snell helmet required....the track is like 70' above sea level so it is a fast track for a California track.
Let me know if some of you want to come out.
We got six (6) Jeeps
heading up to race at Qualcomm Friday June 22. They run four (4) lanes simultaneously and you will see like 8-10 runs an hour.......thats alot of time for you ML boys to come stomp....I mean romp with some SRT8's.They start racing at 6:00 pm and end at midnight......current Snell helmet required....the track is like 70' above sea level so it is a fast track for a California track.
Let me know if some of you want to come out.
06-15-2007, 01:40 PM
#230
Member
Well..well....the Jeep SRT8 now has a flash available to level the playing field......tonight I ran at Irwindale and she ran a 8.2@83.5 DA was 1,871ft above sea level......hhhhhmmmm...........that equates to 8.10@85.59 .....and converts to a 12.64 in the 1/4 ..................."here ML...ML".....
.....and converts to a 12.64 in the 1/4 ..................."here ML...ML"..... It is a JEEP and Chrysler claim they have 5 star service......they gave them selves those 5 stars not the consumers.
I love my ML 63 and I don't miss my old Jeep SRT8 at all.
06-16-2007, 10:35 PM
#231
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Orange County
Posts: 294
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2006 E55
Sure the Jeep is quick and I can say that from owning a Jeep SRT8 that I sold and I bought a 2007 ML63.
It is a JEEP and Chrysler claim they have 5 star service......they gave them selves those 5 stars not the consumers.
I love my ML 63 and I don't miss my old Jeep SRT8 at all.
It is a JEEP and Chrysler claim they have 5 star service......they gave them selves those 5 stars not the consumers.
I love my ML 63 and I don't miss my old Jeep SRT8 at all.
Like all American vehicles it is now maturing and the rough run flats are out replaced by Toyos and Michelins......tune and mods are available putting them in the mid to low 12's.....you are so right... it aint no MB.......thats why I have both!
Again, any SOCAL ML63 guys that want to drive (or caravan) out to Qualcomm Stadium and have a night of running them.....come on out this Friday.
Last edited by sgtstanko; 06-16-2007 at 10:38 PM.
07-12-2007, 01:52 PM
#232
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: NYC
Posts: 459
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
2016 E63s AMG
I owned a mercedes benz and now own Jeep srt8
I have a jeep srt8. it is really fast. I have modded it a little and it has only made it more fun. I had a mercedes before the Jeep snd the only thing that I miss in the mercedes is the plush of the interior. Everything else goes to the Jeep. Sorry guys. THE JEEP IS A BEAST. After a few more mods I will take on any ML63.
https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w203/190661-no-more-benz-my-new-toy.html
Pictures when I bought it
Mods NOW
Borla exhaust
kooks headers
Volant CIA
future mods ASM Supercharger.
60 - 3.7
1/4 mile - 11.9
Jeep SRT8 vs ML63 =
https://mbworld.org/forums/c-class-w203/190661-no-more-benz-my-new-toy.html
Pictures when I bought it
Mods NOW
Borla exhaust
kooks headers
Volant CIA
future mods ASM Supercharger.
60 - 3.7
1/4 mile - 11.9
Jeep SRT8 vs ML63 =
Last edited by ernster; 07-12-2007 at 01:55 PM.
07-13-2007, 01:42 AM
#234
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Vancouver Canada
Posts: 358
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
07 ML63 Silver Dead at 85k, 14 RS5, 05 SL600
DR D has EVO ever tested a Jeep SRT8
Its too bad the jeep didnt have the air suspension of the ML as it otherwise is really a great car. The ML really shines when you hit large pot holes and bad bumps while pushing it around corners at high speed. On the poor roads like we have in BC it is a very forgiving car. Even better when you have to brake hard while on those same corners. Like Doctor D said- as fast as an M5 around the test track that EVO magazine uses. I wonder if EVO has tested a Jeep on that track? Would it beat the SL65 like the ML63? Would it be as fast as the SL55? a second slower than the 997? 
I'll bet my ML is a lot better on the skid pad 2 inches lower than the stock ones. And I still can go over speed bumps and don't hit curbs with the front bumper. Of course the ML is also geared to do 180. The Jeep is built for 0-40 bragging rights and it does earn those rights. It launches really well.
I'll bet my ML is a lot better on the skid pad 2 inches lower than the stock ones. And I still can go over speed bumps and don't hit curbs with the front bumper. Of course the ML is also geared to do 180. The Jeep is built for 0-40 bragging rights and it does earn those rights. It launches really well.
Last edited by kokanee; 07-13-2007 at 01:44 AM.
04-25-2008, 03:17 PM
#235
Newbie
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1993 190E 2.3-8v
Alright, i know i'm bringing up a really really old thread.
But lately, i've been doing a lot of research on the GM Performance LS engines and alike. Apparently they even won an award for best-engineered engine at one point (can't remember were i read that, sorry)
I am one of those people that believe Americans cannot make cars, and that American engines should only be put into lawnmowers.
2008 ML 63 AMG MSRP about $87k
2008 Jeep SRT-8 MSRP about $40k
If paying twice as much for an ML can't overcome your poor reaction time (and whatever other excuses people made for the ML) then you just threw away $50k down the toilet.
If someone puts $50k extra into a SRT8 to even out the price difference, I dont think any of you would want to see it race the AMG.
All over youtube you have videos of the SRT8 taking out E55 AMGs, E60 M5s and even Lambos
For what you pay for, and for what you get, I wonder why anyone would think of buying an ML63 over a Jeep SRT8. Especially considering Mercedes's reliability issues and paying twice as much for something that isnt even "better"
I read on Automotive.com that AMG and Chrysler share many parts in their performance vehicles (eg. W5A580 gearbox in the E55 and the 300c SRT8). And that even the AMG engineers tune the American cars too (eg. SRT8 product line).
I don't own either of these cars. I drive a 1993 190E 2.3, its cheap, its slow, and its not very fashionable. But, Its a Real Mercedes, a car that represents what Mercedes-Benz was, A byword for quality and excellence in engineering . There isn't a car in the world built quite like an old merc.
Mercedes-Benz, did not get their name for making crappy, overpriced luxury vehicles.
DaimlerChrysler finally sold off Chrysler last year. Maybe one day Mercedes will make a quality car again.
THE END
But lately, i've been doing a lot of research on the GM Performance LS engines and alike. Apparently they even won an award for best-engineered engine at one point (can't remember were i read that, sorry)
I am one of those people that believe Americans cannot make cars, and that American engines should only be put into lawnmowers.
2008 ML 63 AMG MSRP about $87k
2008 Jeep SRT-8 MSRP about $40k
If paying twice as much for an ML can't overcome your poor reaction time (and whatever other excuses people made for the ML) then you just threw away $50k down the toilet.
If someone puts $50k extra into a SRT8 to even out the price difference, I dont think any of you would want to see it race the AMG.
All over youtube you have videos of the SRT8 taking out E55 AMGs, E60 M5s and even Lambos
For what you pay for, and for what you get, I wonder why anyone would think of buying an ML63 over a Jeep SRT8. Especially considering Mercedes's reliability issues and paying twice as much for something that isnt even "better"
I read on Automotive.com that AMG and Chrysler share many parts in their performance vehicles (eg. W5A580 gearbox in the E55 and the 300c SRT8). And that even the AMG engineers tune the American cars too (eg. SRT8 product line).
I don't own either of these cars. I drive a 1993 190E 2.3, its cheap, its slow, and its not very fashionable. But, Its a Real Mercedes, a car that represents what Mercedes-Benz was, A byword for quality and excellence in engineering . There isn't a car in the world built quite like an old merc.
Mercedes-Benz, did not get their name for making crappy, overpriced luxury vehicles.
DaimlerChrysler finally sold off Chrysler last year. Maybe one day Mercedes will make a quality car again.
THE END
04-25-2008, 04:28 PM
#236
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: OC, SoCal
Posts: 2,318
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
08 S65, 06 M3 CS(stick), 02 BMW X5 4.6iS, 07 R1 Raven, 08 F-450 4x4, 08 CooperS JCW
Dude, are you kidding? The 50k isn't just for straightline speed, we'd all be in blown Mustang's if that were the case.
As for taking out E60 M5s and Lambos, from a stoplight up to 60 maybe. On a HWY, don't make me laugh.
As for taking out E60 M5s and Lambos, from a stoplight up to 60 maybe. On a HWY, don't make me laugh.
Alright, i know i'm bringing up a really really old thread.
But lately, i've been doing a lot of research on the GM Performance LS engines and alike. Apparently they even won an award for best-engineered engine at one point (can't remember were i read that, sorry)
I am one of those people that believe Americans cannot make cars, and that American engines should only be put into lawnmowers.
2008 ML 63 AMG MSRP about $87k
2008 Jeep SRT-8 MSRP about $40k
If paying twice as much for an ML can't overcome your poor reaction time (and whatever other excuses people made for the ML) then you just threw away $50k down the toilet.
If someone puts $50k extra into a SRT8 to even out the price difference, I dont think any of you would want to see it race the AMG.
All over youtube you have videos of the SRT8 taking out E55 AMGs, E60 M5s and even Lambos
For what you pay for, and for what you get, I wonder why anyone would think of buying an ML63 over a Jeep SRT8. Especially considering Mercedes's reliability issues and paying twice as much for something that isnt even "better"
I read on Automotive.com that AMG and Chrysler share many parts in their performance vehicles (eg. W5A580 gearbox in the E55 and the 300c SRT8). And that even the AMG engineers tune the American cars too (eg. SRT8 product line).
I don't own either of these cars. I drive a 1993 190E 2.3, its cheap, its slow, and its not very fashionable. But, Its a Real Mercedes, a car that represents what Mercedes-Benz was, A byword for quality and excellence in engineering . There isn't a car in the world built quite like an old merc.
Mercedes-Benz, did not get their name for making crappy, overpriced luxury vehicles.
DaimlerChrysler finally sold off Chrysler last year. Maybe one day Mercedes will make a quality car again.
THE END
But lately, i've been doing a lot of research on the GM Performance LS engines and alike. Apparently they even won an award for best-engineered engine at one point (can't remember were i read that, sorry)
I am one of those people that believe Americans cannot make cars, and that American engines should only be put into lawnmowers.
2008 ML 63 AMG MSRP about $87k
2008 Jeep SRT-8 MSRP about $40k
If paying twice as much for an ML can't overcome your poor reaction time (and whatever other excuses people made for the ML) then you just threw away $50k down the toilet.
If someone puts $50k extra into a SRT8 to even out the price difference, I dont think any of you would want to see it race the AMG.
All over youtube you have videos of the SRT8 taking out E55 AMGs, E60 M5s and even Lambos
For what you pay for, and for what you get, I wonder why anyone would think of buying an ML63 over a Jeep SRT8. Especially considering Mercedes's reliability issues and paying twice as much for something that isnt even "better"
I read on Automotive.com that AMG and Chrysler share many parts in their performance vehicles (eg. W5A580 gearbox in the E55 and the 300c SRT8). And that even the AMG engineers tune the American cars too (eg. SRT8 product line).
I don't own either of these cars. I drive a 1993 190E 2.3, its cheap, its slow, and its not very fashionable. But, Its a Real Mercedes, a car that represents what Mercedes-Benz was, A byword for quality and excellence in engineering . There isn't a car in the world built quite like an old merc.
Mercedes-Benz, did not get their name for making crappy, overpriced luxury vehicles.
DaimlerChrysler finally sold off Chrysler last year. Maybe one day Mercedes will make a quality car again.
THE END
04-25-2008, 04:50 PM
#237
Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Whatever I feel like
You sir have more Money than Brains....
And we all know how much Money you have....
Great first post!
And we all know how much Money you have....
Great first post!
Alright, i know i'm bringing up a really really old thread.
But lately, i've been doing a lot of research on the GM Performance LS engines and alike. Apparently they even won an award for best-engineered engine at one point (can't remember were i read that, sorry)
I am one of those people that believe Americans cannot make cars, and that American engines should only be put into lawnmowers.
2008 ML 63 AMG MSRP about $87k
2008 Jeep SRT-8 MSRP about $40k
If paying twice as much for an ML can't overcome your poor reaction time (and whatever other excuses people made for the ML) then you just threw away $50k down the toilet.
If someone puts $50k extra into a SRT8 to even out the price difference, I dont think any of you would want to see it race the AMG.
All over youtube you have videos of the SRT8 taking out E55 AMGs, E60 M5s and even Lambos
For what you pay for, and for what you get, I wonder why anyone would think of buying an ML63 over a Jeep SRT8. Especially considering Mercedes's reliability issues and paying twice as much for something that isnt even "better"
I read on Automotive.com that AMG and Chrysler share many parts in their performance vehicles (eg. W5A580 gearbox in the E55 and the 300c SRT8). And that even the AMG engineers tune the American cars too (eg. SRT8 product line).
I don't own either of these cars. I drive a 1993 190E 2.3, its cheap, its slow, and its not very fashionable. But, Its a Real Mercedes, a car that represents what Mercedes-Benz was, A byword for quality and excellence in engineering . There isn't a car in the world built quite like an old merc.
Mercedes-Benz, did not get their name for making crappy, overpriced luxury vehicles.
DaimlerChrysler finally sold off Chrysler last year. Maybe one day Mercedes will make a quality car again.
THE END
But lately, i've been doing a lot of research on the GM Performance LS engines and alike. Apparently they even won an award for best-engineered engine at one point (can't remember were i read that, sorry)
I am one of those people that believe Americans cannot make cars, and that American engines should only be put into lawnmowers.
2008 ML 63 AMG MSRP about $87k
2008 Jeep SRT-8 MSRP about $40k
If paying twice as much for an ML can't overcome your poor reaction time (and whatever other excuses people made for the ML) then you just threw away $50k down the toilet.
If someone puts $50k extra into a SRT8 to even out the price difference, I dont think any of you would want to see it race the AMG.
All over youtube you have videos of the SRT8 taking out E55 AMGs, E60 M5s and even Lambos
For what you pay for, and for what you get, I wonder why anyone would think of buying an ML63 over a Jeep SRT8. Especially considering Mercedes's reliability issues and paying twice as much for something that isnt even "better"
I read on Automotive.com that AMG and Chrysler share many parts in their performance vehicles (eg. W5A580 gearbox in the E55 and the 300c SRT8). And that even the AMG engineers tune the American cars too (eg. SRT8 product line).
I don't own either of these cars. I drive a 1993 190E 2.3, its cheap, its slow, and its not very fashionable. But, Its a Real Mercedes, a car that represents what Mercedes-Benz was, A byword for quality and excellence in engineering . There isn't a car in the world built quite like an old merc.
Mercedes-Benz, did not get their name for making crappy, overpriced luxury vehicles.
DaimlerChrysler finally sold off Chrysler last year. Maybe one day Mercedes will make a quality car again.
THE END
04-25-2008, 05:38 PM
#238
MBWorld Fanatic!
Cruiseoveride:
Ummm...I had a Jeep GC SRT8.... and I would never make such a vapid argument for the Jeep...and against the ML63. I think you just want to stir some controversy over here. I would suggest that others not buy into the intended firestorm.
Tom
Ummm...I had a Jeep GC SRT8.... and I would never make such a vapid argument for the Jeep...and against the ML63. I think you just want to stir some controversy over here. I would suggest that others not buy into the intended firestorm.
Tom
04-25-2008, 06:30 PM
#239
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 1,049
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Lotus Elise SLK55
Alright, i know i'm bringing up a really really old thread.
But lately, i've been doing a lot of research on the GM Performance LS engines and alike. Apparently they even won an award for best-engineered engine at one point (can't remember were i read that, sorry)
I am one of those people that believe Americans cannot make cars, and that American engines should only be put into lawnmowers.
2008 ML 63 AMG MSRP about $87k
2008 Jeep SRT-8 MSRP about $40k
If paying twice as much for an ML can't overcome your poor reaction time (and whatever other excuses people made for the ML) then you just threw away $50k down the toilet.
If someone puts $50k extra into a SRT8 to even out the price difference, I dont think any of you would want to see it race the AMG.
All over youtube you have videos of the SRT8 taking out E55 AMGs, E60 M5s and even Lambos
For what you pay for, and for what you get, I wonder why anyone would think of buying an ML63 over a Jeep SRT8. Especially considering Mercedes's reliability issues and paying twice as much for something that isnt even "better"
I read on Automotive.com that AMG and Chrysler share many parts in their performance vehicles (eg. W5A580 gearbox in the E55 and the 300c SRT8). And that even the AMG engineers tune the American cars too (eg. SRT8 product line).
I don't own either of these cars. I drive a 1993 190E 2.3, its cheap, its slow, and its not very fashionable. But, Its a Real Mercedes, a car that represents what Mercedes-Benz was, A byword for quality and excellence in engineering . There isn't a car in the world built quite like an old merc.
Mercedes-Benz, did not get their name for making crappy, overpriced luxury vehicles.
DaimlerChrysler finally sold off Chrysler last year. Maybe one day Mercedes will make a quality car again.
THE END
But lately, i've been doing a lot of research on the GM Performance LS engines and alike. Apparently they even won an award for best-engineered engine at one point (can't remember were i read that, sorry)
I am one of those people that believe Americans cannot make cars, and that American engines should only be put into lawnmowers.
2008 ML 63 AMG MSRP about $87k
2008 Jeep SRT-8 MSRP about $40k
If paying twice as much for an ML can't overcome your poor reaction time (and whatever other excuses people made for the ML) then you just threw away $50k down the toilet.
If someone puts $50k extra into a SRT8 to even out the price difference, I dont think any of you would want to see it race the AMG.
All over youtube you have videos of the SRT8 taking out E55 AMGs, E60 M5s and even Lambos
For what you pay for, and for what you get, I wonder why anyone would think of buying an ML63 over a Jeep SRT8. Especially considering Mercedes's reliability issues and paying twice as much for something that isnt even "better"
I read on Automotive.com that AMG and Chrysler share many parts in their performance vehicles (eg. W5A580 gearbox in the E55 and the 300c SRT8). And that even the AMG engineers tune the American cars too (eg. SRT8 product line).
I don't own either of these cars. I drive a 1993 190E 2.3, its cheap, its slow, and its not very fashionable. But, Its a Real Mercedes, a car that represents what Mercedes-Benz was, A byword for quality and excellence in engineering . There isn't a car in the world built quite like an old merc.
Mercedes-Benz, did not get their name for making crappy, overpriced luxury vehicles.
DaimlerChrysler finally sold off Chrysler last year. Maybe one day Mercedes will make a quality car again.
THE END
04-26-2008, 04:26 PM
#241
Member
I had an JEEP SRT-8 and let me tell you that I didn't mind driving it but it is a cheap truck with cheap interior that rattles a bit. Also it sucks in the snow if you have to drive it in that weather. Felt like driving a 4-wheel drive IROC. At the end of the day it is just a JEEP.
ML63 is more enjoyable to drive in so many ways.
ML63 is more enjoyable to drive in so many ways.
04-27-2008, 08:54 AM
#242
Glenn
04-29-2008, 10:35 AM
#244
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Hell
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EFF YOU JACKIE
Well guy in 63 has slowest reactions known to man. After that, the 63 took over and gave the jeep a brutal pounding.
Good to see the 63 obviously does make over 500bhp. Who would have doubted it?!
From what i've read the ML63 would trouble wifie's X5 in the twists. About time too
Good to see the 63 obviously does make over 500bhp. Who would have doubted it?!
From what i've read the ML63 would trouble wifie's X5 in the twists. About time too
You are kidding about the X5, correct? The X5 doesn't come close, at all.
04-29-2008, 10:38 AM
#245
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Hell
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EFF YOU JACKIE
Thats because the SRT-8 Jeep IS indeed quicker to about 100 MPH than the 63. Hey, they're from the same family (or at least they were when built last year). The Jeep is geared for the 1/4 mile run & you dont have to rev the hell out of that 6.1 420 HP engine to get it going. The Benz will kill it on the top end and in fact does in this video, BUT for basic street racing (stoplight to stoplight) and for the $$, the SRT is hard to beat.
Glenn
Glenn
04-29-2008, 11:17 AM
#247
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: OC, SoCal
Posts: 2,318
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
08 S65, 06 M3 CS(stick), 02 BMW X5 4.6iS, 07 R1 Raven, 08 F-450 4x4, 08 CooperS JCW
FYI, the 4.6iS was worked on by the M-division and has 315 R20 wide rear tires stock. It's only got 347bhp but it handles better than an SUV has any right to in the twisties and is up there with the ML63 and CayenneTT in that regard. Not bad for a 2002 model. Read up on it.
04-29-2008, 03:02 PM
#248
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Hell
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EFF YOU JACKIE
Of course it does, that's why no one else picked out my post from about 12months back.
FYI, the 4.6iS was worked on by the M-division and has 315 R20 wide rear tires stock. It's only got 347bhp but it handles better than an SUV has any right to in the twisties and is up there with the ML63 and CayenneTT in that regard. Not bad for a 2002 model. Read up on it.
FYI, the 4.6iS was worked on by the M-division and has 315 R20 wide rear tires stock. It's only got 347bhp but it handles better than an SUV has any right to in the twisties and is up there with the ML63 and CayenneTT in that regard. Not bad for a 2002 model. Read up on it.
04-29-2008, 05:19 PM
#249
MBWorld Fanatic!
Actually, my soon to be ex had a 2003 X5 4.6is for the past 5 years. All I know is that my Jeep SRT8 was a really good handling SUV.....and the 4.6is was much much better handling wise. I would be surprised if the ML63 (from a purely handling perspective and not speed around a long track) was better handling than the 4.6/4.8is.
Tom
Tom
05-01-2008, 11:34 AM
#250
MBWorld Fanatic!
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Hell
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
EFF YOU JACKIE
RennTech
We'll see how bad *** that SRT8 is when I pick up the RENNTech chip. HAHAHAHA. Just kidding. I am ordering the ECU for increased efficiency and power..
