Germancar1

Yeah I think I'm done. He is proven wrong and then changes his position only to be proven wrong again. He doesn't seem to have common sense or the ability to grasp facts presented plain as day.

M

absent

Old but valuable rule on all these chats:
DO NOT FEED THE TROLL!

Wolfman

Facts aren't enough in this case, so your attempts appear futile. Not worth your time! On a different note, MB's 360 camera is the best one I know. The 5 camera system in our BMW doesn't give a full 360, but is worlds above the one in the new range rover. I do like that they start to cover the reverse cameras so can actually keep the lens clean.

K-A

So in other words, Porsche is selling all time highs on its vehicles ("Luxury" division) but M-B is seeing a sales decline in its upper end Luxury Cars. Audi also is seeing growth in its most premium division. Rolls Royce selling all time highs, etc.

Considering trends and how the lower portion of M-B's product portfolio is being diluted more-so than ever, cannibalizing upper range sales, and how those cars share exact design languages with the new CL (CLA the same front, probably next C/E Coupe's will look like complete scaled down models), I have a feeling we'll see the C217 sell less than the C216, thus showing more regressive sales from the upper M-B range.

Germancar1

Again, what part of Mercedes, BMW and Lexus are not at all time highs at the top don't you understand?

Do you not grasp that Audi came out with the only new car post 2008-09?

Really man? Are you really that thick?

Porsche is the exception to the rule and they only matched their previous high from 2008 in 2012.

Bentley, MB, BMW, Lexus have all yet to reach their peak again at the top end.

STOP SAYING THAT IS JUST MERCEDES BECAUSE YOU ARE JUST FLAT WRONG. IT IS EVERYONE EXCEPT PORSCHE.

AUDI INTRODUCED THE A8 AFTER THE DOWNTURN, ALL THE REST WERE SELLING THE SAME CAR BEFORE THE DOWN TURN.

YOU CAN'T BE THIS BLIND WITH HATE. Anyone with common sense would see that the A8 came from no where to still being WAY behind the segment leaders so an increase was bound to happen there.

Bentley, Mercedes, BMW and Lexus vs ONE CAR FROM AUDI and Porsche. Your theory about Mercedes alone being in trouble IS FLAT WRONG AND UNFOUNDED.

Rolls Royce? Mercedes, BMW, Audi, Lexus or even Porsche don't even compete in that space. BENTLEY on the other hand is a real luxury car, hasn't reached their previous peak.

M

K-A

You somehow keep missing the entire point.

Fact: Mercedes is slowing down at the top, growing at the bottom.

Did I say they're the only ones? However, being that they used to be known as a "high end manufacturer" and now are growing more prevalently at the lower end, which in turn is cannibalizing both growth (since it's declining) and exclusivity in styling and brand of the higher models, the trend is pretty clear.

BMW is less affected by this as BMW was never as prominent at the higher end of the spectrum as Mercedes were, so fact is, there are more expensive Mercedes' that are being cannibalized by this.

Point being: Mercedes being the "prestige king" has been affected at the upper end the most, and has more to lose up there.

Germancar1

FACT: EVERYONE BUT ROLLS-ROYCE IS SO WHY ARE YOU SINGLING OUT MERCEDES. OH AND THE A8 A NEW CAR AFTER THE RECESSION.

You're making excuses for BMW, and none of them are valid. BMW sold more at the top i.e. the 7-Series in previous years just like Mercedes.

You're only harping about it because you're on a Mercedes board. Talking about NOTHING.

Mercedes didn't lose sales at the top end because CLA, this started after 2008-2009, what part of that don't you get? That nothing to do with the CLA or any other entry level Benz.

LOOK AT THE NUMBERS. THEY'RE ALL IN THE SAME BOAT AND COMMON SENSE SAYS THAT MERCEDES MOVE MOVE CARS AT THE TOP END THAN BMW OR LEXUS SO OF COURSE THEY ARE AFFECTED THE MOST. COMMON SENSE. NOT GLOOM AND DOOM.

Dying to hear your excuse for Bentley. A true luxury, bucks up brand. DOWN since 2008 and haven't recovered yet. What is the excuse there?

Doesn't even make sense. Mercedes sold more at the top end than BMW so the down turn affected them more, even though they still outsold BMW and Lexus at the top end. Again you have no clue or point. You're just throwing **** to the wall now to see what sticks, it doesn't.

Mercedes is in no different shape the BMW or Lexus or Bentley at the top end. ALL OF THEIR SALES SHRANK. ALL OF THEM.

M

K-A

The only BMW you can point out that decreased in sales is the 7.

M-B = SL, CL, S, to at least name some. That's my entire point and it's clearly gone far beyond your head. If M-B expand at the bottom, more C's sell, more low margin cars come out, now a FWD Econo car starting in the $20K's (not to mention that bad joke called a "GLA"), and those lower priced cars mostly or all look like downsized version of more expensive cars, it's very simple elementary logic as to the *TRUE* explanation of why upper range M-B's continue to sell less than their predecessors. The economic shifts as you cite of course add to it, but they're not the only story, not even close.

Maybe Bentley decreased simply because their product portfolio has sucked for a while.

Germancar1

No I proved that BMW's 7, Lexus' LS, and Mercedes S, CL, SL, and the ENTIRE BENTLEY BRAND HAVE NOT SOLD MORE AT THE TOP END SINCE 2008.

WHAT DO YOU GET?

MERCEDES WAS ONLY HURT THE MOST BECAUSE THEY SELL THE MOST AT THE TOP END.

IT IS COMMON SENSE.

THIS DOWNWARD TREND STARTED IN 2008-2009, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE CLA.

THE CLA STARTS AT 30,8XX, NOT IN THE 20'S.

Elementary logic is all you have because you have NO FACTS, just speculation. I just gave you the facts.

IF CHEAPER CARS LOOKING LIKE MORE EXPENSIVE ONES ARE THE PROBLEM, HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN AUDI'S A8 RISING SINCE 2011?

Fact is that every single car in this class (except the A8) are DOWN. Period.

Mercedes is no different.

You're about as hopeless and as clueless as a hater can be man. I have clearly proven you wrong at every turn. All you have is speculation, I've given you the FACTS. The Actual Sales Numbers. All you have is guesswork.

WHAT PART OF DOWNTURN FOR EVERY BRAND EXCEPT PORSCHE DON'T YOU GET?

BACK IN 2008-2009 THE CLA WAS NOT OUT AND THE C AND S HAVE EXISTED FOR YEARS.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT.

I get your "point" but what you don't get is that it is not based on facts. Two things have caused this:

1 - A general downturn at the top end for nearly every brand operating in that space. Bentley, BMW, Lexus as well as Mercedes. THIS IS A FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!

2. The cheaper Benzes you are talking about just came out THIS YEAR, not 2007, 2008, 2009, THIS YEAR. HOW in the world does that explain the downturn 5-6 years ago??????? IT DOESN'T. The RECESSION DOES.



3. Audi is the only one out of BMW, Mercedes, Lexus and Audi to launch a new car at the top end since 2008-2009, giving them a huge leg up as the market recovered. ALL the other cars in that segment came out for 2007 (S-Class), 2007 (LS) and 2009 (7-Series). What about this don't you understand? I'm seriously asking.

M

K-A

Point lost again. You're too lost in Mercedes' kool-aid as per usual to realize my valid reasonings and logic as to why their upper range models keep losing sales relevance.

Jason B

I understand exactly what you are saying. I think K-A likes Mercedes as a brand but feels these new models "over time" will hurt the overall brand image... With the C class being the entry level, now there is the CLA/Gla, etc. which is giving a bad taste in some people's mouth - that the overall impact on these, might impact the perception of the brand at the higher end. It's too early to tell if that will be the case. I hope that doesn't happen. I love the brand and respect the brand.

Germancar, thanks for providing those numbers and facts. Time will tell in the end of K-A's theory holds water.

Jason B

Looks like its coming to the 2015 S!!

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/merced...180928864.html

http://www.smartglass.com/worlds-bes...ss-technology/

K-A

Well put, and exactly. It's a theory, and I think it's already playing out enough, and it's the last thing I want to see happen to Mercedes (hence the criticism). Some people for some reason can't handle it and criticize it as if it's their mother I'm talking about, thus drag threads on and on and on and on about how wrong it (wishfully) has to be.

BigHat

Isn't there something else you could be doing other than being the duty douche nozzle around here? It takes brass ***** to be driving a slab sided, boring POS 535i and commenting about a car that looks 1000x better than that.

Germancar1

You're too blind to realize that every brand in the same space has had the same decline BEFORE the cheaper models arrived.

You are incapable of understanding anything that doesn't fit in with your own dumb made up theories.

You can't prove anything, I've given you proof that the ENTIRE market has changed at the top end BEFORE cars like the CLA arrived.

You're just lost. How in the world is looking at actual facts about EVERY BRAND supposed to be Mercedes kool-aid?

Ridiculous and you know it which is why you don't have any factual reply anymore.

M

K-A

If my opinion on the CL hurts your feelings, then grow up. It shows just how right I am about Mercedes when its fans can't stand to hear it, therefore resorting to adolescent insults and banter.

Anyway, this from a driver of the biggest impression'd SL flop of all time, so lousy M-B themselves (as per usual) are showing the same disdain for their own creation as the public is, attempted to now screw those of you who spent hard earned dollars on it by doing yet another one of their patented "oops, we goofed again" about-face facelifts. A perfect design doesn't need a reconstructive surgery (i.e my POS 535i).

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-show...#ixzz2qW8T4BMg

Kratos-TM

.......

v8plus4

This conversation is entertaining, but it's a re-run. The same thing happened in 1986 with the release of the 190E, the ridiculous C-class Kompressor hatchback in the 2000's, and now the CLA. Brand loyalists were concerned that the down market models would negatively affect the brand image. It didn't happen. The purpose of these entry-level models is to attract younger buyers to the brand, who will (hopefully) remain loyal and buy up to an E, then an S over time.

The twenty-something year old who likes the CLS, but can't YET afford an $80k car is the target market for the CLA. I submit that the typical S-class buyer doesn't give a **** that the C-class look like an S, he buys the S because (to him) it's the best car in it's segment.

If the C-class keeps you from buying an S, where do you go from there? A8? It's an A4 clone. 7? All BMW's look alike. And on and on...

At the end of the day, buy what you like.

Kratos-TM

This hands down is the best "sum-up" of this argument.

And by the way, good point about the Kompressor....man I forgot all about that thing!

Germancar1

Yes, he thinks the new C looking like the S-Class and the FWD CLA will hurt the S, S Coupe, SL and whatever else Mercedes sells at the top end. Got it!

What he doesn't want to admit or can't seem to grasp (even though I proved it with the actual sales numbers) is that those cars at the top end, S-Class, 7-Series, Lexus LS, Bentley haven't reached their former peaks in sales, those peaks happening back in 2008. That is entire Bentley brand, Lexus' LS, Mercedes' S/CL/SL, and the BMW 7-Series. None of those cars sell in the numbers they used to and this was from 6 years ago until now. That has nothing to do with the CLA or the 2015 C-Class looking like the 2014 S-Class.

He said the CL has never sold well and that somehow this limited to Mercedes. It isn't. All the brand operating in this space have seen declines, except Porsche, which has been up and down since 2008, only reaching their previous sales heights from 2008, in 2012. Not sure why this is so hard to grasp.

He is saying what may happen in the future with no regard or thought about what has already happened and it had NOTHING to do with a cheap model looking like a more expensive one. At 4 different brands? Lexus, MB, BMW and Bentley? They're all suffering from this problem or did a downturn in the WHOLE market from 2008 onwards curtail sales of high end cars?

Sales are only "booming" compared to last year, but all the brands that are booming are doing so because of big sales at the bottom and middle, not the top. All can be proven with actual sales numbers. He has NOTHING but theories.

M

Germancar1

Exactly. The only people worrying about this aren't buyers in the first place.

Right on the spot post and you're right the 190E caused the same reaction. What these people fail to realize is that Mercedes is expanding at both ends. For the first time in like 50 years there will be a large 4-seat Cabriolet, the S-Class Cabrio and one more variant that they haven't revealed yet in addition to the XXL S-Class we see being tested now.

His precious BMW just introduced a FWD, 1-Series minivan, so does this same theory apply to BMW? What his post prove is that he's a badge snob more than anything, too busy worry about what the entire brand sells or looks like instead of being able to enjoy the actual cars they sell. I have never seen so much written about nothing. He has no clue about what he's talking about.

M

BigHat

It doesn't hurt my fellings, I just think you're a clown. Opinions on cars from those that can't afford them gets weary and frankly smacks of the obvious resentment. As you know too well, it hurts less if you don't like what you can't afford.
You've made your impressions known, so why not go back to hanging out with other driver's of the German Honda Accord (535i)?

K-A

Thanks to M-B's proliferation in the FWD MPV game (now even reskinned as a FWD Econo car which I believe WILL be damaging to the M-B brand, i.e CLA), BMW have been basically forced to do one. BMW's got their own problems though as every new car they introduce is a Hatchback or SUV of some sort with barely any variation (or seeming reason) behind them.

If someone can't see how M-B's upper segment cars "perceived cachet" are suffering due to their expansion at the bottom, especially when those cars now look so close to the upper ones (or even identical in the C/S respect), then I guess I wish I could see it so rosily. Fact is, upper segment M-B's, by and large (i.e more than their competitors as they had more upper segment cars to begin with) are seeing declining sales, barring no M-B kool-aid excuses.

Germancar1

The problem is that you haven't proved that their upper cars are suffering in "perceived cachet". Prove it.

You can't use the past as an example because nearly every brand had a downturn after 2008, and only Porsche and the singular Audi A8 have returned to their previous sales heights and/or matched them. BMW, Lexus, Mercedes and Bentley HAVE NOT at the top end.

Fact is you have NO FACTS. Only speculation.

Where do we measure "perceived cachet" and how do we determine what it is?

You pretend that there was no recession or no general downturn in the market from 2008 onwards. What you're talking about is the future, what you THINK might happen. NOT A FACT.

BMW just introduced a 2-Series, FWD, Minivan, but they were "forced" to do it? I think that is the koolaid, i.e. bull****.

Now since I said this like 10 times you now use it in your post? OMG seriously. This is common sense. Since Mercedes was and still is the leader in sales of luxury cars over 80K of course it would hurt them the most. DUH.

Doesn't change the fact that Bentley, Lexus and BMW are in the same boat, all have DECLINED at the top end since 2008. What entry level model at those brand caused that to happen? Or was it the MARKET in general?

M

K-A

Declining sales (and you just agreed with me on my point, which WAS my point, so put the kool-aid down and take it for what it is). Massive SL dud who's not only depreciating at rapid rates (can pick them up from auctions for insanely cheap vs MSRP's already, not to mention being "given away" by dealers already), but has been negatively received by the public, and now reputable sources say by M-B themselves. Once again, M-B unhappy with a design they released thus apparently thinking up a massive rework-surgery. Very nice. Just what you'd expect from a six figure car.